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Need information on small turbine jets

Old 04-17-2019, 04:17 PM
  #1  
rhklenke
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Default Need information on small turbine jets

Guys,

I need some information on small turbine jets. I'm mainly interested in jets that are powered by engines like a P-20, T-45, K-30, K-45, K-60 and maybe as big as K-70. I don't have anything like that myself, so I need to know what's out there that guys are flying. It doesn't have to be in the U.S., I need the info. on the aircraft themselves.

I'd like to get the following information:

-aircraft, manufacturer, (kit, ARF, scratch built)
-engine (P-20, K-30, T-45, etc.)
-dry weight
-fuel capacity
-construction (foam, composite, built-up)
-dimensions (length, wing span, wing area)

I really need the aircraft, engine, and dry weight, so if you don't have the rest of the info. handy, please still give me what you've got.

You can post here, or if, for any reason, you don't want to post it, please send it to me in a PM.

Thanks!
Bob Klenke
JPO President
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:43 PM
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HSD F-16
Jetcentral Bee SE 18 lbs
Dry weight 18 lbs
Stock fuel capacity 47 oz. Plan to install 2 liter soda bottle which is a drop in swap.
Foam construction.
WS - 49", Length- 70"
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Afterburners View Post
HSD F-16
Jetcentral Bee SE 18 lbs
Dry weight 18 lbs
Stock fuel capacity 47 oz. Plan to install 2 liter soda bottle which is a drop in swap.
Foam construction.
WS - 49", Length- 70"
Thanks Marty!

Who else out there has a "small jet" that can send me info? What about P-20 or T-45 powered ones?

Bob
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:21 PM
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Bob,

Savex L-39. All composite. Lots of paint schemes available.

Savex GFK Modell - ** Models - ** Jet airplains


scale 1:8
weight:1.200 -1.600g ( bare )
wingspan:1.220 mm
length:1.380 mm
engine:Impeller 90-105mm , Wren 44, P20 Colibri 25


Paul
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:30 AM
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Phoenix Models Preceptor ARF:
I have flown it with a K45 and K70. Dry weight=11.5lbs
40oz of fuel
Balsa and film covered
55" wingspan
620ish sq in.

Last edited by why_fly_high; 04-18-2019 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
Guys,

I need some information on small turbine jets. I'm mainly interested in jets that are powered by engines like a P-20, T-45, K-30, K-45, K-60 and maybe as big as K-70. I don't have anything like that myself, so I need to know what's out there that guys are flying. It doesn't have to be in the U.S., I need the info. on the aircraft themselves.

I'd like to get the following information:

-aircraft, manufacturer, (kit, ARF, scratch built)
-engine (P-20, K-30, T-45, etc.)
-dry weight
-fuel capacity
-construction (foam, composite, built-up)
-dimensions (length, wing span, wing area)

I really need the aircraft, engine, and dry weight, so if you don't have the rest of the info. handy, please still give me what you've got.

You can post here, or if, for any reason, you don't want to post it, please send it to me in a PM.

Thanks!
Bob Klenke
JPO President
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You might get more response if you explained why you need to know...
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Nige321 View Post
You might get more response if you explained why you need to know...
OK, the U.S. turbine waiver rules state that the waiver flight needs to be in an aircraft over 12 lbs dry. I'm curious if some of the smaller jets that guys are doing with these smaller turbines are over or under that weight. So the question is, does a guy who wants to do the smaller jets going to have to go out and specifically get one that is over 12 lbs dry to get his waiver, or is he most likely to have something over that weight anyway?

Bob
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
OK, the U.S. turbine waiver rules state that the waiver flight needs to be in an aircraft over 12 lbs dry. I'm curious if some of the smaller jets that guys are doing with these smaller turbines are over or under that weight. So the question is, does a guy who wants to do the smaller jets going to have to go out and specifically get one that is over 12 lbs dry to get his waiver, or is he most likely to have something over that weight anyway?

Bob
I have a few friends that want to get started with smaller jets. One has bought an Opus and a K30. He has no interest in normal jets. Short of buying a jet to get his waiver, borrowing a jet for a waiver flight, or just not flying at AMA fields, he has no way to get "legal" with the AMA.

I look at it like this, if someone wants to get in to gas planes and they want to get a 30cc plane first. What would be the result if we said you have to get a 50cc plane before you can get the smaller gasser. Is it keeping bunches of jet flyers out, probably not. Should there be a path for people to start with small inexpensive jets and move up? I think so.
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:07 AM
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Not going to duplicate my post but subscribing to the thread
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:14 AM
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I am from the UK but currently living in the US for about 6 months. I have lots of turbine experience but no waiver, as we donít have that process. I wanted to bring a small jet with me (Sebart Mini Avanti) but I couldnít see any way to get a waiver (without borrowing someone elseís bigger jet) so I left it at home. It was too difficult for me to bring a bigger jet for such a short period of time.

Part of me thinks the waiver is a good idea, but the process doesnít seem to fully cater for all aspects of the jet community.

As for the small jets, weíve had limited success here with the P20 on a Savex L39. I used to fly one with a 7lb wren 44 so I think it would go well with a Kingtech 30. The small Sebart jets (Mini Avanti, L39, Aermacchi MB339 and soon the Hawk) seem to be amongst the best models for small turbines that I have seen.
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:24 AM
  #11  
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Bob many of the 90mm edf models are being flown on a 20-30-45-70 Newton motors
This includes foam model weights are in the 8.5 - 11.5 pound range and they fly great.
I have many ask why the 12lb min. I think it is an archaic rule and needs to be removed.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:04 AM
  #12  
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OK, so let's deepen the discussion (but keep the info on small jets coming - I need all that I can get)...

In the U.S., you need a turbine waiver to fly a Multiplex Funjet with a P-20. Does the fact that you can fly a Funjet with a P-20 mean that you are safe to fly a 55lbs twin turbine model of a Mig 29?

My answer is NO, it doesn't, so doing a waiver flight on a P-20 powered Funjet shouldn't give you a full turbine waiver.

Does doing a waiver flight on a Boomerang Spring with a K-120 mean that you can fly the same Mi-29?

Truthfully, no, but it is a lot closer than than the turbine Funjet - its bigger, faster, has a higher wing loading, has retracts and flaps, and makes a much bigger mess if it bites the dust.

Should you do a waiver flight on the Mig-29 itself?

Absolutely NOT! OK, so where do you draw the line?

The 12 lbs is arbitrary, but what should be in its place? I believe that there should be a lower limit for the full turbine waiver, but if its not 12 lbs, where (or what) should it be? Maybe retracts, flaps, and above a certain wing loading?

Or, should there be a "small turbine waiver" for guys who just want to fly turbines under 12 lbs, dry (like we have a turboprop waiver)? Is there enough demand for that? As far as I know, no one has applied for the turboprop waiver, so it seems there we might have solved a "problem" that really wasn't a problem. Is that the case here?

Bob

Last edited by rhklenke; 04-18-2019 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:08 AM
  #13  
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It begs the question, Does a person that wants to fly a small turbine model have the interest or finances to fly the LMTA Mig 29?
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob_B View Post
It begs the question, Does a person that wants to fly a small turbine model have the interest or finances to fly the LMTA Mig 29?
Good question, I don't know, probably not, but you never know how some people may progress. It was an exaggerated example, but it illustrates the issue.

BTW, a 55lbs wet, twin turbine Mig 29, is actually not in the LTMA category, and yes, you could do a Skymaster one within the 55 lbs limit.

Bob
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:42 AM
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After about 400 flights on a couple of Savex L-39's (Wren 44 Gold), I felt that the Ultra Flash was a lot easier to fly than the L-39. After starting to fly the UF, the little L-39 has not left the house.

Does the little L-39 prepare you for a heavy scale jet - absolutely not, but using it as a stepping stone to something like an UF/ T1/ Havoc/ Boomerang etc. is perfectly doable.

If someone could fly the little L-39 well, I'd have no issues recommending them for a waiver (baring the 12lb rule, that is).

The waiver is just like a driving license - nothing to stop you driving a Ferrari the day after getting the license, (as long as you can afford the insurance).

You have to rely on some amount of self-policing.


Paul
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:50 AM
  #16  
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You must not think of all small engined models as slow. Mostly they fly closer in and proportionately seem just as quick as a large plane being flown a bigger distance away.
Not all small engined models are actually slow. Have a look at the video of Ali flying an Opus jet powered by one of my own design 3.2 Kg thrust turbines. There are few in the world that could fly at this sort of speed and still have it under control. The commentator says around 200 mph but that was pretty conservative.


Keeping small engined models under 12 lbs dry is reasonably easy I have built plenty including scratch builds. Henke can tell you how to do it with certain techniques he has developed. Having to have brakes and retracts on small jets seems pretty unnecessary to me as we rarely fit them on small models to reduce weight.

John
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:51 AM
  #17  
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I have thought about this and it has been discussed on other forums. I think a sub XX waiver and over XX waiver would be a good option. I think you will get more of a response than the turboprop waiver because honestly, turboprops are cool but I don't see a lot of people starting there, no waiver, due to the fact they actually cost more to enter.

Your boomerang example is valid. Here is my go to example of a legal waiver flight plane that prepares you for pretty much nothing other than how to operate a turbine.

Again, with the proliferation of the smaller turbines, there has to be a way to welcome those who want to enter jets on a smaller scale. The people I know that would get a smaller turbine to start if they wanted to go bigger later would have no issue with getting another waiver when the time comes.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by why_fly_high View Post
I have thought about this and it has been discussed on other forums. I think a sub XX waiver and over XX waiver would be a good option. I think you will get more of a response than the turboprop waiver because honestly, turboprops are cool but I don't see a lot of people starting there, no waiver, due to the fact they actually cost more to enter.

Your boomerang example is valid. Here is my go to example of a legal waiver flight plane that prepares you for pretty much nothing other than how to operate a turbine.

Again, with the proliferation of the smaller turbines, there has to be a way to welcome those who want to enter jets on a smaller scale. The people I know that would get a smaller turbine to start if they wanted to go bigger later would have no issue with getting another waiver when the time comes.
I hear you, and I agree, but you also have to think in terms of a regulatory and insurance framework. If someone were to get a waiver under a system without any qualifications on the aircraft (like over 12 lbs dry), and then have problems flying their larger, heavier aircraft and ultimately have an accident of consequence, the question would immediately come to why were they given the ability to fly that aircraft without better demonstrating their ability to do so.

Yes, your example above is apropos, but I will tell you that I, personally, would not sign off on a turbine waiver on such a jet (or the commercial equivalent - a Shok jet). For me to sign off, the waiver flight has to be done on a bigger, faster jet that has retracts and flaps (i.e., a "complex" aircraft). I have signed off guys on the twin boomed trainer jets before, but I always caution them that they need to build up to the larger, heavier scale jets in some kind of step-by-step approach.

Back when I did my waiver, the "trainer jets" were the Kangaroo and Hotspot (I had a Kangaroo). Let me tell you, if you could fly and land a Kangaroo or Hotspot, you could pretty much handle anything else...

Bob
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:45 AM
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If we went for a 2-step waiver approach, how about if the initial waiver was flown with a sub-12lb model, the 'light-weight' waiver would be good for less than (say)18lb AUW. That way, there would be some growth potential under the initial waiver, plus it would enable the owners 'growth' model to be used for the 'heavy-weight' waiver, without the need to force the pilot to buy or borrow a model specifically for the 'heavy-weight' waiver flights.

And, just like now, if a model heavier than 12lb was used for the waiver flight it would result in an unrestricted waiver, just like today.

Paul
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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I suspected that was the intent of the 12 pound limit, that and these rules were written when there were 2 or 3 options for sub 12 pound full house turbine planes.

I think there are many models available now that are sub 12 pounds dry, and they bring turbine flying to the average modeler that we (the AMA) need to find a way to accommodate them if that is what they want to fly, and that is what they can afford to fly.
About Turboprops. I see them quite a bit, but the guys currently flying them have jet waivers, either because thats what they also flew, or because that was the only route to a waiver at the time. TBH that's nice to provide that rating but I think thats a small sub-segment of a relatively small segment of the hobby. I think a lot more folks are or could be affected if the letter of the law is followed with the 12 pound limit than will ever be by the turbo prop waivers.

To be frank, I think my Avanti and Viper (both sub 12 pounds even wet) are more difficult to fly than my 25 pound 100n Havoc GTS will be. And both the Viper and Avanti are full house with flaps and retracts, neither are in the category of a P20 Funjet yet both fail to make the weight for a waiver flight.

Bob, how many JPO members are there right now?

One more set of musings. To me, knowledge of proper turbine operations, fire response, flight line safety, crash response, fuel handling etc are far more important to me as a turbine CD inspector (for lack of a better word) than how much the plane weighs.
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by why_fly_high View Post
.... Should there be a path for people to start with small inexpensive jets and move up? I think so.
+1

K-30 inside any 80 - 90 mm model is great
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:08 PM
  #22  
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Default Imho

As a Turbine CD, IMHO, I lean more towards complexity of the jet. Complex being flaps and retracts. After all, how many of us can run fast enough to hand launch a jet that weighs 12# or more? Or even 12# or less? I canít. Catapult, dropped landing gear, or taking off from a cart is about the only way. Weíve always known that flying bigger is better and easier to fly with a larger C.G. envelope and lighter wing loading. The smaller C.G. envelope jet can be a higher wing loading and less forgiving. After all, besides money and egos, why else have the jets becoming so large with light wing loading? Because they are easier to fly.
Another way to look at this could be Sports Jet Class and a Military Jet Class. Thereís a huge difference in flying technics, the abilities of skill, and understanding a very high wing loading. And understanding that most fighters need to approach in a 5 degree nose high attitude coming down final? Most guys donít know this fact. Instead they keep the jet high, when they think it is time, they chop the throttle and dive for the runway. Usually ending up too fast, forcing the landing and maybe bouncing down the runway running off the end, if they didnít cart wheel it. Their Military Jet they are flying like their Sports Jet. Their Sports Jet, they are flying like their Prop Plane. Iíve successfully helped guys who have had expensive transition to Military Jets trying to do it on their own. I think that Military Jets are more difficult for the average pilot, then a 55# Viper. Which goes back to the question, can a guy who can fly a 10# Viper go fly a 55# Viper? Well the FAA allows a Private Pilot to attain his Private Pilot in a C-152. Then the next flight, he can go hop in a non complex single engine up to the weight of 12,500#.

Iím with BarracudaHockey who stresses the operation and safety of the turbine. One of my main questions is: On your jet, how many ways can you abort the start in an emergency? Most of the time there are 5 or 6 ways. Some have come to me for the waiver, trained by someone else, and usually miss 2 or 3 ways. And this varies with set up. But, something to think about for safe operation for the waiver. To be courteous and aware of jet blast with start up and taxi, especially break away thrust and what foamie, light electric planes are behind the jet in the pits. Our taxiways point right into our pits and pavilions.

Just be aware that the more we limit ourselves in the AMA for insurance, will probably be put into affect later when the FAA decide to control the waiver application. Could happen! Whoíd of thought getting a FAA license for a quadcopter and multiple copter drones? I never did, and flew professionally for a living.

Last edited by RCFlyerDan; 04-18-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:14 PM
  #23  
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The 12lb rule was written about 20yrs ago when the average jet was minimally 12-20lbs. To get one to fly with a 5in fan running a .91ci two stroke was stressing and short lived. The lighter the better. The first commercial turbine choices were 8-15lbs on a good day. With todays evolvement of the hobby, it is considered outdated terminology ( AMA needs to update).

I have 9-10 turbine aircraft and most are 60n or smaller. Just don't care for the BIG ones, to much hassle.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:16 PM
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One thing to remember is that not everyone has the desire for a complex scale jet. I have 5 jets. All sport jets. I like the sound and I like to fly fast. I have no desire for a scale jet. Why does everyone have to have something complex and high wing loading to prove they will be ready for that big scale jet.

Also, my Ultra Flash is the easiest of my stable to fly and no one would have an issue signing me off with a UF.
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:11 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by TimD. View Post
The 12lb rule was written about 20yrs ago when the average jet was minimally 12-20lbs. To get one to fly with a 5in fan running a .91ci two stroke was stressing and short lived. The lighter the better. The first commercial turbine choices were 8-15lbs on a good day. With todays evolvement of the hobby, it is considered outdated terminology ( AMA needs to update).

I have 9-10 turbine aircraft and most are 60n or smaller. Just don't care for the BIG ones, to much hassle.
The 12lb rule is not that old. You used to be able to get a waiver with a fast prop plane or ducted fan jet. Then came EDFs and with the proliferation of foam EDFs people were complaining about guys getting a waiver using a foamy EDF. Thus the Turbine only waiver and 12lb weight limit came about. As turbines got smaller guys adopted the foam kits to suit and now small kits are turbine ready from the manufacturer. So, yes, I think it's about time for a rule change.
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