Notices
RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Autoland

Reply

Old 05-21-2019, 09:58 PM
  #1  
Jannica
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borlange, SWEDEN
Posts: 157
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Autoland

Excuse me for thinking loud here.
I wonder how far away a true autolanding system RC aircrafts is. I know that there is a foamie on sale with some kind of autolanding capability but that is for a specific model that is both light and inexpensive. Now that we have GPS and gyros and lots of computer power in our RC systems I think that maybe it should be possible to create such a function in an autopilot device.
Maybe it could be built around a saved GPS file from an earlier good landing or maybe it could be constructed at your desktop by means of aeroplane parameters and Google maps or a combination of those?
I understand that some of you would cry out loud and argue that such a system would take away the meaning and joy of flying yourself but that wouldn’t be the case if it was selectable. Instead it would be a great help to all of us who are getting older and don’t want to stop flying jets just because our physical capabilities are slowing down a bit.What do you think?
Will we see an autolanding function for RC aeroplanes in the future and do we want it?


Jannica

Sweden

Last edited by Jannica; 05-21-2019 at 11:19 PM.
Jannica is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 01:32 AM
  #2  
rcflyguy_26
My Feedback: (8)
 
rcflyguy_26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Findlay, OH
Posts: 524
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

This should be interesting.
I hope not.
My opinion, if you can't land it, you shouldn't be flying it. Sorry if that ruffles some feathers, but safety is paramount. I can except gyros for smoothing out flight, no problem. But any type of automatic flight is asking for trouble. Not just from accidents, but from diminishing skills also.
I just think is a bad idea.

Scott
rcflyguy_26 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 01:36 AM
  #3  
Tuggs
 
Tuggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baden, GERMANY
Posts: 302
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I hope not. Landing is actually a rewarding part of the whole "flight experience" for me. So nah, not for me please.

Plus, it might get people into the hobby you might not want to have. :P
Tuggs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 01:42 AM
  #4  
Dansy
My Feedback: (53)
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 1,557
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Why not a complete autonomous flight....just zip out the computer and put a stunning flight don’t even need to start the motor, your just the dummies that will have to fuel the thing until a refueling robot �� is build.....and standby for fire on start...

I’m pretty sure, I choose to be into Remote Control Flying as a hobby.....not computer science. LOL ��
Dansy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 02:27 AM
  #5  
Mikey5547
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 522
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Why on earth would anyone want that feature? If you’re at the stage where you need something to land a rc plane for you then you shouldn’t really be flying at all. Why would someone spent the money on a plane, build it then go to a flying field for it to basically fly itself?
Mikey5547 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 02:57 AM
  #6  
JP-1
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Newark-On-Trent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 1,072
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

We already have a system, a tad expensive for modellers though.

USAF Completes First Auto-Land Using MQ-9 BLOCK 5
JP-1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 03:54 AM
  #7  
jonkoppisch
My Feedback: (162)
 
jonkoppisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 2,823
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quads, drones have auto land, return to home feature..
jonkoppisch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 03:59 AM
  #8  
basimpsn
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mia, FL
Posts: 2,556
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

You could buy this "Carbon Cub" from horizon hobby, Remove the electronics and install it in the Jet...that's what I did lol
Just kidding.

Last edited by basimpsn; 05-22-2019 at 05:23 AM.
basimpsn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 05:04 AM
  #9  
why_fly_high
My Feedback: (19)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 676
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

The main problem with most autoland systems for small uavs is that they hold an attitude and fly in to the runway. They have little flair. Work fine for light foamies but not great for heavy jets. If you want it for something that works on an rc jet would will likely need things like laser altimeter, differential gps, etc. My experience with the lesser expensive autopilots you end up braking a lot of stuff getting the autopilot dialed in. For hobby applications it really isn't feasible. This is all over and above the aforementioned safey issues of folks flying jets they aren't comfortable landing themselves.
why_fly_high is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 10:35 AM
  #10  
mikes68charger
My Feedback: (33)
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: , OH
Posts: 1,808
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

All you need is a good TX, I'm not sure if my Futaba Can do it, but I think Jeti can. I want to put an air speed telemetry device in my jet, take it up high and find its tip stall speed, (ie 20mph) then set an alarm that will go off if my jet gets to below 25mph so I would have time to add power, as this seems to be how most jets are lost, ie landing to slow and tip stalling, or landing to fast due to fear of tip stall.
mikes68charger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 11:39 AM
  #11  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,062
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

KISS it baby, KISS it, more stuff in our jets? absolutely not for me, I recently remove what you call a power/chl expander out of one of my jets, the less the better.

Keep the experience real.
CARS II is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2019, 08:29 AM
  #12  
hk3957w
 
hk3957w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Bogota
Posts: 28
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Every day the technology is expanding , growing up,. some year ago was with line aircrafts, no digital servos. in this moments sophisticated radios and servos with telemetry and a lot of amazing toys all thanks to technology and people with new ideas. off course in every evolution we have fails and risks but that’s the price to improve our knowledge. some year ago was very difficult to me set up helicopters for example but now I can make it. now I moving to jets and must say the new systems are improving and help me to achieve my goal. I am sure in some year we will have some kind of system to help us to fly, when get older or sick or just for the fun of developing a reliable system I will try to fly if some of those systems help me to fly safe I will buy it. I will be waiting for that future and new toys.

for now auto landing system for jets are reserved for military and very expenses civilian UAV applications, so we have to wait some people with resources, knowledge and new ideas develop it for hobby jets.
hk3957w is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2019, 09:13 AM
  #13  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,062
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Cool! But as stated above, don't want it!

KEEP THE EXPERINCE REAL!
CARS II is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2019, 05:59 PM
  #14  
c/f
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: evansville, IN
Posts: 815
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I have been getting pretty good at setting up the Graupner 3Gx gyro rx in other 3D electric models, and in the heading hold mode its pretty cool it will teach you to land with throttle as elevator, you truly only need to use the throttle and leave other controls untouched, with only throttle commands you can increase/decrease and kiss the wheels on touchdown and roll entire runway an lift off again with only throttle so only thing missing is the vario for altitude if you line up on final.
c/f is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 04:08 AM
  #15  
Jannica
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borlange, SWEDEN
Posts: 157
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

It´s getting closer..
Jannica is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 05:07 AM
  #16  
Dave Wilshere
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Watford, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 10,827
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

It's here already for 'model aeroplanes' (read UAV's) but IMO should not be allowed, it's just plain dangerous in an aeromodellers hands.
Dave Wilshere is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 05:26 AM
  #17  
jescardin
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Talamanca de JaramaMadrid, SPAIN
Posts: 509
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere View Post
It's here already for 'model aeroplanes' (read UAV's) but IMO should not be allowed, it's just plain dangerous in an aeromodellers hands.
Just in aeromodellers hand? I worked in the military UAV market for many years and you may be sure aeromodellers are not the most dangerous chaps!

I was told how a 0.8 mach target jet went up over a crowded city till engineers were able of recovering the control and make it back to the sea for a ditch. Or how they "targeted" a house on a nearby camping with our own prop driven UAV, thankfully without any victim but just the little house!

As they say, "the true is out there" but.... it is aeromodellers who needs regulations and being controlled.

Best Regards.
jescardin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 06:17 AM
  #18  
Carsten Groen
 
Carsten Groen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,769
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Before anyone jumps all over me and screams "dont fly if you cant land" stuff
Some of us loves to tinker and challenge ourself and the technology out there, this does NOT mean that we don't enjoy a good (manual) flight with our planes, the one does not exclude the other!!
Some years ago there were no ECU's for our turbines, you would have to control the pump with the throttle (carefully). Now we all use ECU's and don't even think about that as strange.
Also when gyros where getting popular, a lot of the "high end pilots" were negative, "if you can control you plane, dont fly". Now they also use gyros... and so on....

Its complicated to make an autoland system, and more importantly, to get it to work safely.
I have a system with LIDAR (a laser looks down and measures precise height) so the height info is not too difficult (it also corrects for roll/pitch using a IMU). Its the "hit the runway at the center" that is difficult. GPS is not going to do it (easily), some other means is needed.

The most difficult part of the landing (manually) is for many keeping "just the right speed", not too fast and not too slow.
At least with that you can get some help: ** Digitech Central Telemetric Unit for Jeti **
The single most important telemetry device (in my opinion) is a speed sensor. Getting the airspeed while landing is very nice!
Carsten Groen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 06:22 AM
  #19  
digitech
My Feedback: (10)
 
digitech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: klimmenlimburg, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 3,573
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by mikes68charger View Post
All you need is a good TX, I'm not sure if my Futaba Can do it, but I think Jeti can. I want to put an air speed telemetry device in my jet, take it up high and find its tip stall speed, (ie 20mph) then set an alarm that will go off if my jet gets to below 25mph so I would have time to add power, as this seems to be how most jets are lost, ie landing to slow and tip stalling, or landing to fast due to fear of tip stall.
This exists
we have a autothrottle function on our CTU
you can keep a preset speed for landing
digitech ctu
digitech is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 10:17 AM
  #20  
rhklenke
My Feedback: (24)
 
rhklenke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 5,802
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by Carsten Groen View Post
Before anyone jumps all over me and screams "dont fly if you cant land" stuff
Some of us loves to tinker and challenge ourself and the technology out there, this does NOT mean that we don't enjoy a good (manual) flight with our planes, the one does not exclude the other!!
Some years ago there were no ECU's for our turbines, you would have to control the pump with the throttle (carefully). Now we all use ECU's and don't even think about that as strange.
Also when gyros where getting popular, a lot of the "high end pilots" were negative, "if you can control you plane, dont fly". Now they also use gyros... and so on....

Its complicated to make an autoland system, and more importantly, to get it to work safely.
I have a system with LIDAR (a laser looks down and measures precise height) so the height info is not too difficult (it also corrects for roll/pitch using a IMU). Its the "hit the runway at the center" that is difficult. GPS is not going to do it (easily), some other means is needed.

The most difficult part of the landing (manually) is for many keeping "just the right speed", not too fast and not too slow.
At least with that you can get some help: ** Digitech Central Telemetric Unit for Jeti **
The single most important telemetry device (in my opinion) is a speed sensor. Getting the airspeed while landing is very nice!
Carsten is correct there. We've done quite a bit of experimenting with autoland for fixed-wing UAVs, and hitting the runway is the hard part. GPS repeat accuracy is still measured in meters, so lining up with the runway laterally is tricky - unless the runway is 150' wide and smooth all across. GNSS has helped accuracy, but not eliminated the problem completely. Hitting a 750', 50' wide grass runway every time is not easy.

Full-scale "precision" GPS approaches must be WAAS enabled and they still typically have a "decision height" of 200' or more - at which point the pilot must see the runway to do the terminal guidance and flare.

Besides the arguments above WRT to whole point of the fun involved, model jet flying is all about the landing - the last 2' being totally critical to the outcome. Achieving the success rate of an experienced, skilled, current, RC jet pilot is going to be all but impossible. Now for "emergency situations" it might be different...

Bob
rhklenke is online now  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service