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Sport Jets - small vs big

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Old 09-20-2019, 12:23 AM
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jimibar
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Default Sport Jets - small vs big

Hey guys,

I am looking for a jet trainer for next season and with the introduction of the X45, I was wondering if the small sport jets can be compared to the big ones ?
Originally I was thinking about a bigger model like the Viper from RC Pilot in 87", then I saw some models like the Rebel Hot, SAB Lizard etc ... It looks like the market is going toward the smaller jets, at least for the sport planes.
But how does both compare ?
If I take the Viper Jet as an example, the flying enveloppe looks really wide but it's obvious for a 10 kg model with a 87" span ... The wing loading is low and flying characterics might be awesome.
What about the smaller ones, the Rebel Hot is a ~5kg plane for 60" wing span. What about the flying enveloppe ? Is it comparable ?

I'm looking for a trainer so you can imagine what I'm looking for .. The Viper is a perfect choice and fit 100% of my needs but if I can go smaller ... with easier transportation, faster assembly at the field etc ... why not ?
I took the Viper and the Hot as examples, there might be other models of course but they illustrate perfectly what I am trying to figure out.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:57 AM
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Joseph Frost
 
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The bigger, the better, more stable from my experience. A lot depends on the flying facility you have avail.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:14 AM
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There are a few different observations from your post.

Firsty, despite the introduction of the X45 I still donít really see a big increase in the number of smaller jets. I am a small jet fan and this is quite annoying, but there are many more options available in larger sizes.

Small jets vary significantly. For example, the Habu 32 that many converted to Jetcat P20 flew really well, but it had the traits of a small jet (relatively high wing loading and somewhat twitchy/snappy if not set up right) whereas I also fly a Sebart Mini Avanti which is extremely easy to fly in comparison.

I donít think anyone would really argue that the larger jets are generally more stable, but that has to be balanced with ease of operation. I have probably ten times as many flights on P20 models than my bigger models as I can chuck them in the car fully built and get 2 or 3 flights in whilst everyone else is assembling their models. The size also has the added advantage that if it starts to rain you can put it straight back in the car.

Also, some (not all) of the smaller models are cheaper. I can completely replace my mini Avanti for the same price as a landing gear set for a bigger model.

If you have a big flying area, lots of time and what the best flying model then I would go bigger. If you want ease of transport and quick/easy assembly then smaller models are worth consideration.

Or the best option, is to have at least one of each!!
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:29 AM
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So what do you need? My philosophy is to make it fly good at a resonable budget. This will up your skills as a polit as you can focus on flying not the rattling of your knees.

I really want a fancy plane such as Wizard S or Rebel HOT, but I can not afford to crash it = fly higher.

I also try to stay away from making too small planes with a too large engine (well note the "try".... LOL). Going Habu32, 70-80mm EDF makes little sense with the X45 engine. Those really calls for the smaller and lighter Kolibris. Jump up to look at 90mm jets or even 105mm.

My latest plane is the Avios Mig17, it's a 90mm size, little larger and a little nicer looking then a sports jet. Still it flies really well I must say. 12min on 800cc of fuel.












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Old 09-20-2019, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
I donít think anyone would really argue that the larger jets are generally more stable
That's basically the main question. I use the X45 as an example because this turbine seems really small and lightweight. So I wonder if, with all the new technology and new models that are available on the market today, we can compare the flying characteristics of a Viper with a M100 and a Hot with an X45.
As you said, with more wing loading the plane are not as easy or as stable as bigger models. This was a fact, but as the wing loading on smaller model can be compared to big ones today, is it still the case ?

Thanks Henke for sharing your turbine conversion, the Avios is pretty impressive and there is a lot of options on the foamy jets to convert. But I am looking for a tough model if I'm going to put a turbine in it. I have a few EDF jets foamies (I have maindened my Havec Xe yesterday) but they are not as resistant as the fiber jets.
You always have to be careful on how you handle the plane or how you secure it in your car etc ...
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:39 AM
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Personally wouldn’t say a rebel hot or a viper jet is a trainer, I would say they are a second jet. Something like a xcalibur which you can get in every category in size and fly great are a perfect trainer. Bigger models fly easier in my opinion with lighter wing loading and ease to see it in the air. I’m not sure if you’re looking first jet or not but xcalibur is perfect. If it’s second jet the rebel would be great. But there is a price difference if you’re learning to fly jets xcalibur won’t cost as much in parts as a rebel. But this is just my opinion
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
Firsty, despite the introduction of the X45 I still donít really see a big increase in the number of smaller jets. I am a small jet fan and this is quite annoying, but there are many more options available in larger sizes.

I agree with you, there are not as many options in the smaller jets as in the larger ones. But with the introduction of new smaller turbines, we can hope that the smaller jets will come anytime soon ?
I'm almost pretty certain that the turbine jet world will be democratized with the smaller ones. In the last Jet World event, it looks like some companies are releasing XXXL models, I am a fan of these huge models but not all jet enthusiast can carry/own/build a 3 or 4 meters plane.
The money has always been a big consideration to enter the jet world, but as you said the smaller jets are cheaper most of the time and the more people will be converted to turbine, the more affordable the jet world will be.


Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
Or the best option, is to have at least one of each!!
I do have bigger jets but as I am looking for a trainer, I was really wondering if this time I can go smaller. It's easier to transport and put in place at the field. But I don't want to sacrify the flying enveloppe/characteristics.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jimibar View Post
But I am looking for a tough model if I'm going to put a turbine in it. I have a few EDF jets foamies (I have maindened my Havec Xe yesterday) but they are not as resistant as the fiber jets. You always have to be careful on how you handle the plane or how you secure it in your car etc ...
Hm, I find it the other way around. A dent in the fiber plane and it's wasted. (check the picture and you se my wall ornament LOL)

I think if you are to equip a foam plane with the same standard servos, retracts etc as you would in a fiber plane they would be just as rugged if not more. But again, it's also preferences. I can not afford crashing a Rebel HOT that is Ä1500 empty on an internet bet. The foam planes are flying airbags and protect the turbine well, while providing a really good package when flying at minimum cost in both pure $$ and time. Can fly them in another way while still relaxing.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:28 AM
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Ok first off I would be very careful getting a viper for a first jet. They like to tip stall for inexperienced flyers and it happens very quickly. I've seen so many new pilots get vipers then put them in the ground turning final.

Size...
I will use the same type of airframe for comparison here. T1 mini -T-1 and the T3.

These are all the same airframe just different sizes and I have lots of flying time on all 3. The easiest to fly I would say is the T3. It is extremely stable and a fun bird to fly. A problem with the bigger birds though is understanding how much load your putting on the aircraft. So for instance if your going to want to fly full throttle straight down then yank on it the T3 is not the plane for you. The T-1 for me is the best of the 3 because its easy to handle by yourself and it has a very light wing loading at its size. It will do anything you want in the sky also. It will fly like a trainer or do any advanced maneuver in the book when you get more experienced. I have gotten many people turbine waivers on the original T-1. Some of these guys had 0 jet experience and I could get them done in one day on the T-1. The smaller mini T-1 is a great flyer but harder to see and for sure a tougher aircraft to fly then its bigger brothers. The smaller jets have pretty much all the same equipment as a larger jet so your going to have a much higher wing loading. That being said I have seen many guys get a mini T-1 as a first jet and have great success.

Bottom line is bigger is better up to point. You really want something at least 85 inches long. Also Stay away from vipers for a first jet.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:28 AM
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I like jets because they look fast, so I expect them to look like they're flying fast. The bigger the jet, the slower it looks in the air. I have a 2.2m Predator and it is probably the biggest I will ever go. Even at the 199.9mph usa turbine speed limit it looks slow in comparison to my 170mph 80mm foamie.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
Ok first off I would be very careful getting a viper for a first jet. They like to tip stall for inexperienced flyers and it happens very quickly. I've seen so many new pilots get vipers then put them in the ground turning final.
I think I didn't use the word trainer in the proper manner. When I said trainer I was thinking about a pattern plane with good flying characteristics at all speed and capable of doing slow passes or fast ones. With easy and slow landings. That's what I call a trainer, but maybe the good translation would be a good day to day training jet. Definitely not a first jet.

Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
Size...
I will use the same type of airframe for comparison here. T1 mini -T-1 and the T3.

These are all the same airframe just different sizes and I have lots of flying time on all 3. The easiest to fly I would say is the T3. It is extremely stable and a fun bird to fly. A problem with the bigger birds though is understanding how much load your putting on the aircraft. So for instance if your going to want to fly full throttle straight down then yank on it the T3 is not the plane for you. The T-1 for me is the best of the 3 because its easy to handle by yourself and it has a very light wing loading at its size. It will do anything you want in the sky also. It will fly like a trainer or do any advanced maneuver in the book when you get more experienced. I have gotten many people turbine waivers on the original T-1. Some of these guys had 0 jet experience and I could get them done in one day on the T-1. The smaller mini T-1 is a great flyer but harder to see and for sure a tougher aircraft to fly then its bigger brothers. The smaller jets have pretty much all the same equipment as a larger jet so your going to have a much higher wing loading. That being said I have seen many guys get a mini T-1 as a first jet and have great success.

Bottom line is bigger is better up to point. You really want something at least 85 inches long. Also Stay away from vipers for a first jet.
Thanks for your feedback, it clarify things as you are flying all 3 models.
I really thought that the Hot with an X45 will be at the same wind loading as a bigger 2m+ plane.
I'm taking the Hot as a reference because it's a new model, with CARF building knowledge it might have an AUW pretty low ?
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:26 AM
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It does have a low all up weight, especially with a 45 in it. should be under 13lbs full of fuel easy.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:38 AM
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Another option is the T-1 Micro which was just released. I have mine on order and is in make ready at this time. The prototypes have been released and many are commenting on how light a wing loading it has. Also, it can fly on either a 30 or a 45. I'll be able to report when I get mine

Last edited by patrnflyr; 09-20-2019 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jimibar View Post
I think I didn't use the word trainer in the proper manner. When I said trainer I was thinking about a pattern plane with good flying characteristics at all speed and capable of doing slow passes or fast ones. With easy and slow landings. That's what I call a trainer, but maybe the good translation would be a good day to day training jet. Definitely not a first jet.



Thanks for your feedback, it clarify things as you are flying all 3 models.
I really thought that the Hot with an X45 will be at the same wind loading as a bigger 2m+ plane.
I'm taking the Hot as a reference because it's a new model, with CARF building knowledge it might have an AUW pretty low ?
I thought you meant a first jet trainer as well. Just ignore my post then. But I do think bigger jets fly better. Iíve had small and Large Hawks, L39ís and Xcaliburís and big ones always Fly better. The viper jet is a great flying jet but has a nasty habit of snapping on you on tight manoeuvres like loops etc. Thereís hundreds of videos on YouTube of them doing it and crashing so be careful when flying them.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
Ok first off I would be very careful getting a viper for a first jet. They like to tip stall for inexperienced flyers and it happens very quickly. I've seen so many new pilots get vipers then put them in the ground turning final.

Size...
I will use the same type of airframe for comparison here. T1 mini -T-1 and the T3.

These are all the same airframe just different sizes and I have lots of flying time on all 3. The easiest to fly I would say is the T3. It is extremely stable and a fun bird to fly. A problem with the bigger birds though is understanding how much load your putting on the aircraft. So for instance if your going to want to fly full throttle straight down then yank on it the T3 is not the plane for you. The T-1 for me is the best of the 3 because its easy to handle by yourself and it has a very light wing loading at its size. It will do anything you want in the sky also. It will fly like a trainer or do any advanced maneuver in the book when you get more experienced. I have gotten many people turbine waivers on the original T-1. Some of these guys had 0 jet experience and I could get them done in one day on the T-1. The smaller mini T-1 is a great flyer but harder to see and for sure a tougher aircraft to fly then its bigger brothers. The smaller jets have pretty much all the same equipment as a larger jet so your going to have a much higher wing loading. That being said I have seen many guys get a mini T-1 as a first jet and have great success.

Bottom line is bigger is better up to point. You really want something at least 85 inches long. Also Stay away from vipers for a first jet.
T1 would get my vote. Good presence without being too "floaty" like some of the bigger stuff. Mini T1 is real nice as well.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:35 AM
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For easy fun flying i like my turbinator. They sell two sizes to fit every motor combo. I’m a scale jet person but when I’m not interested in hauling one of those out the turbinator does it for me. Btw i have the larger 80” version with a P100. I have flown this size jet on a P60 and P70 too.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:48 AM
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Steve Collins
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The Fei Bao Dolphin fits what you are looking for in all aspects. Extremely stable flyer at all speeds and so super easy to land! A couple of pilots at my home field were so impressed with mine that they both bought Dolphins.

Last edited by Steve Collins; 09-20-2019 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Collins View Post
The Fei Bao Dolphin fits what you are looking for in all aspects. Extremely stable flyer at all speeds and so super easy to land! A couple of pilots at my home field were so impressed with mine that they both bought Dolphins.
Wouldn't even the smallest dolphin call for like three engines?
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Old 09-21-2019, 08:27 AM
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I have a Dolphin and Dolphin S. I have been told the Mini Dolphin is the best flyer of the bunch. Hard to believe it can beat it's big brothers.
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tp777fo View Post
I have a Dolphin and Dolphin S. I have been told the Mini Dolphin is the best flyer of the bunch. Hard to believe it can beat it's big brothers.
Who imports/sells Fei Bao here in the USA?
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tp777fo View Post
I have a Dolphin and Dolphin S. I have been told the Mini Dolphin is the best flyer of the bunch. Hard to believe it can beat it's big brothers.
Sure, but the mini is still a huge jet for one X45 engine. It would need a minimum of two X45, preferably three.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:55 AM
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If you’re doing the x45 route the harlock viper jet with gyro flies really big and the mini avanti are both good choices. I have a 2.5m viper as well and I have never seen any tip stall tendencies? It’s a very popular model for the very reason of being a good all around model. Small models will slowly come, three new small models have come to the market lately. Lots of options these days, you just need to decide on what exactly you want.
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:11 PM
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The Harlock Viper is a more solidly built airframe and with better gear and the x45 or K45 are the perfect motors for it.

I liked my Avanti, it was light and flew well, but it was less tolerant of misadventure than the Viper.
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Old 09-21-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FenderBean View Post
If youíre doing the x45 route the harlock viper jet with gyro flies really big and the mini avanti are both good choices. I have a 2.5m viper as well and I have never seen any tip stall tendencies? Itís a very popular model for the very reason of being a good all around model. Small models will slowly come, three new small models have come to the market lately. Lots of options these days, you just need to decide on what exactly you want.
Type viper jet crash into YouTube and you will see loads. Iíve seen it in person as well
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:05 PM
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Type any rc jet name and crash into YouTube and see the same thing. Hey what do I know I only see viper jets at every event I have attended since getting into jet. Just F-16s and Bae Hawks, you see a lot of them because lots of people like them for a reason. All jets crash if you get too slow
harlock viper jets are constantly out of stock for a reason, the quality is great and they fly great.

Last edited by FenderBean; 09-21-2019 at 03:08 PM.
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