Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10-08-2003, 04:20 PM
#51
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: jchris
Ben, thats wrong. Just spoke to the AMA to clarify. As soon as the CD leaves the field "after hours" the place is considered a regular AMA field and no longer an AMA sanctioned event. Outside "normal" event hours, it is OK to test fly jets, as long as there is sufficient light to do so. Not any different if a jet event is held at a local club field.
Ben, thats wrong. Just spoke to the AMA to clarify. As soon as the CD leaves the field "after hours" the place is considered a regular AMA field and no longer an AMA sanctioned event. Outside "normal" event hours, it is OK to test fly jets, as long as there is sufficient light to do so. Not any different if a jet event is held at a local club field.
Gordon
10-08-2003, 04:43 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: jchris
Gordon,
Hence the "as long as there is sufficient light"
Gordon,
Hence the "as long as there is sufficient light"
Yeah - I saw that part ... but the point I was making is that (assuming I'm remembering correctly), Dave Brown stated point blank that the CD was responsible for what went on at the sanction site regardless of whether he was phsically present or not - he didn't only ***** about the night flying - he held the CD responsible despite the fact that the CD was at home eating dinner at the time.
The AMA can not expect the CD to camp at the field to check what people are doing after hours
Later,
Gordon
10-08-2003, 05:13 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Common sense would agree with that, but I just thought that Dave said otherwise. So, I'm wondering whether (a) my memory is faulty ; (b) the AMA has revisited the rules about what the CD is reposnsible for ; (c) The interpretation we get differs substantially depending on which AMA person we talk to.
Probably (C) you will get a different answer based upon who you talk to.
Busting a guy's balls when he is not actively on line, able to respond to allegations, IMO, is no way to handle a safety issue....some guys may not even own a computer!
Tom,
I have seen this person list items for sale, and make posts to this forum. Again I have not mentioned his name yet. Don't you find it somewhat ironic though have EVERYONE seems to know exactly who I am talking about? I don't think anyone here wants to deny him the right to enjoy his hobby just as much as the rest of us enjoy it. We all just want to see him doing it safely.
David Reid
Probably (C) you will get a different answer based upon who you talk to.
Busting a guy's balls when he is not actively on line, able to respond to allegations, IMO, is no way to handle a safety issue....some guys may not even own a computer!
Tom,
I have seen this person list items for sale, and make posts to this forum. Again I have not mentioned his name yet. Don't you find it somewhat ironic though have EVERYONE seems to know exactly who I am talking about? I don't think anyone here wants to deny him the right to enjoy his hobby just as much as the rest of us enjoy it. We all just want to see him doing it safely.
David Reid
10-08-2003, 09:02 PM
#55
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have something to say regarding this whole issue. Being on both sides of the fence during my short turbine career (2 1/2 years and counting), I feel I can speak from experience.
This person needs to realize there is a problem before he will act. He is in denial, and will do nothing until this time. I was there at one point (but at a much smaller scale than this individual).
My experience:
I am a competent pilot but was extremely over confident in my abilities. Along with that fault came bad judgments and inexperience (turbine aircraft related) I lost my first turbine at FJ due to inexperience (dumb thumb) and deteriorating sky. My second due to PCM lockout (induced by inexperience of pushing the envelope) After this second crash, BV took me off to the side and gave me some advice (slow down, take it easy). I lost my third plane strictly because I was unfamiliar with the high speed stall characteristics of this particular jet (inexperience again) and was yanking and banking too hard. My good friend Todd Witkoff also noticed me !QUOT!pushing!QUOT! the airplanes and my abilities and said something also. I took BV and Todd's advise and it has made me a better pilot and I'm glad for it. I even took a step back and went back to DF's for a short while and now have returned to turbines.
It was a tough le$$on, but until I !QUOT!listened!QUOT!, I continued to keep doing what I was doing. Nobody likes to admit they have a problem, but it is necessary or there can be no solution.
I can also attest to the post that referred to being nervous in front of a crowd, it's like you have never flown before. It is VERY true. I was literally shaking the first time I ever flew at FJ, but like everything else, it gets easier. I feel much more comfortable now and am confident flying at events.
Just my experience and able to relate on both sides.
George DelMoral
This person needs to realize there is a problem before he will act. He is in denial, and will do nothing until this time. I was there at one point (but at a much smaller scale than this individual).
My experience:
I am a competent pilot but was extremely over confident in my abilities. Along with that fault came bad judgments and inexperience (turbine aircraft related) I lost my first turbine at FJ due to inexperience (dumb thumb) and deteriorating sky. My second due to PCM lockout (induced by inexperience of pushing the envelope) After this second crash, BV took me off to the side and gave me some advice (slow down, take it easy). I lost my third plane strictly because I was unfamiliar with the high speed stall characteristics of this particular jet (inexperience again) and was yanking and banking too hard. My good friend Todd Witkoff also noticed me !QUOT!pushing!QUOT! the airplanes and my abilities and said something also. I took BV and Todd's advise and it has made me a better pilot and I'm glad for it. I even took a step back and went back to DF's for a short while and now have returned to turbines.
It was a tough le$$on, but until I !QUOT!listened!QUOT!, I continued to keep doing what I was doing. Nobody likes to admit they have a problem, but it is necessary or there can be no solution.
I can also attest to the post that referred to being nervous in front of a crowd, it's like you have never flown before. It is VERY true. I was literally shaking the first time I ever flew at FJ, but like everything else, it gets easier. I feel much more comfortable now and am confident flying at events.
Just my experience and able to relate on both sides.
George DelMoral
10-08-2003, 09:10 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David:
Admittedly many of us know who the mystery guest is, and acknowledge that he does own a computer and does infrequenty post on RCU...that's not my point....
I just don't dig Kangaroo courts....with self-appointed judge(s) on RCU....they rarely accomplish anything constructive...ultimately, the AMA is the "giver" and "taker away" of turbine waivers....CD's and their Safety Officer(s) have the fiduciary duty to provide that only safe flying is conducted at a sanctioned meet.
513/20/A-C seems pretty clear in that regard ....it's even been revised earlier this year and is now in BOLD print....."At sanctioned events, the CD should report any waiver holder operating in a reckless and dangerous manner to AMA. The CD should submit a WRITTEN report describing the infraction and include it when returning his event forms to the AMA following the event. This will be kept on file and the pilot will be notified of the infraction" Then it goes on to the actual pulling of the waiver for just cause, and right to appeal.....sounds like standard legal boilerplate to me.
It would be interesting to see how many letters from 2003 Jet Meet CDs are in this alleged perp's file by 12/31/2003....
Tom
Admittedly many of us know who the mystery guest is, and acknowledge that he does own a computer and does infrequenty post on RCU...that's not my point....
I just don't dig Kangaroo courts....with self-appointed judge(s) on RCU....they rarely accomplish anything constructive...ultimately, the AMA is the "giver" and "taker away" of turbine waivers....CD's and their Safety Officer(s) have the fiduciary duty to provide that only safe flying is conducted at a sanctioned meet.
513/20/A-C seems pretty clear in that regard ....it's even been revised earlier this year and is now in BOLD print....."At sanctioned events, the CD should report any waiver holder operating in a reckless and dangerous manner to AMA. The CD should submit a WRITTEN report describing the infraction and include it when returning his event forms to the AMA following the event. This will be kept on file and the pilot will be notified of the infraction" Then it goes on to the actual pulling of the waiver for just cause, and right to appeal.....sounds like standard legal boilerplate to me.
It would be interesting to see how many letters from 2003 Jet Meet CDs are in this alleged perp's file by 12/31/2003....
Tom
10-08-2003, 09:47 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom,
This discussion might also serve as a wakeup call to this individual that he needs to get some help with flying? Several CD's were present at Superman including at least two TCD's that saw the incident. I know that Jerry arrived at the flightline just shortly after the plane went down. I do not know if he saw it but I do know he is aware it happened. So are you saying that the rest of us are just to turn our backs when we see a pilot that does not possess the skills necessary?
DR
This discussion might also serve as a wakeup call to this individual that he needs to get some help with flying? Several CD's were present at Superman including at least two TCD's that saw the incident. I know that Jerry arrived at the flightline just shortly after the plane went down. I do not know if he saw it but I do know he is aware it happened. So are you saying that the rest of us are just to turn our backs when we see a pilot that does not possess the skills necessary?
DR
10-08-2003, 11:54 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can fix this problem... If the guy (who ever he is) wants to fly
he can fly with me... (on a buddy box). I can make sure everything
stays Cool.
Eddie Weeks
he can fly with me... (on a buddy box). I can make sure everything
stays Cool.
Eddie Weeks
10-08-2003, 11:59 PM
#59
RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL, Eddie, I have yet to see you fly straight and level!!!! If I was ridin in one of your planes, I'd be blowin chunks in slow motion out the starboard..............
Seriously, good suggestion, since he's got a waiver, maybe some stick time on the buddy box is in order. There's no shame in that. I was confident I could fly a turbine for my first flight solo, but I did it on a buddy box despite my EGO.
Sean
Seriously, good suggestion, since he's got a waiver, maybe some stick time on the buddy box is in order. There's no shame in that. I was confident I could fly a turbine for my first flight solo, but I did it on a buddy box despite my EGO.
Sean
10-09-2003, 12:53 AM
#61
RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone care cold beer?
Let finish this beer and get out the garage lube your wheels, fix your gear, fill up your kerosene and charge your batteries. In 48 hrs is play time.
Tam
Let finish this beer and get out the garage lube your wheels, fix your gear, fill up your kerosene and charge your batteries. In 48 hrs is play time.
Tam
10-09-2003, 08:48 AM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David:
Comes down to what is the best way to handle waivered pilot incompetence issues, particularly at Jet Meetings....
1. suggest buddy box assistance
2. follow 513 guidelines if #1 unsuccessful due to personality issues
OR
3. start a 100+ post attack thread on RCU every couple of months---???? Unfortunately, doesn't seem to work in this case, as I remember the same lament about competency at MAB 2002....
Back to KC building-----just starting the tank mount install.....FIJR is looming on the horizon.....wish I could build as fast as you.....
Tom
Comes down to what is the best way to handle waivered pilot incompetence issues, particularly at Jet Meetings....
1. suggest buddy box assistance
2. follow 513 guidelines if #1 unsuccessful due to personality issues
OR
3. start a 100+ post attack thread on RCU every couple of months---???? Unfortunately, doesn't seem to work in this case, as I remember the same lament about competency at MAB 2002....
Back to KC building-----just starting the tank mount install.....FIJR is looming on the horizon.....wish I could build as fast as you.....
Tom
10-09-2003, 09:25 AM
#64
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: Tom Antlfinger
513/20/A-C seems pretty clear in that regard ....it's even been revised earlier this year and is now in BOLD print....."At sanctioned events, the CD should report any waiver holder operating in a reckless and dangerous manner to AMA. The CD should submit a WRITTEN report describing the infraction and include it when returning his event forms to the AMA following the event. This will be kept on file and the pilot will be notified of the infraction" Then it goes on to the actual pulling of the waiver for just cause, and right to appeal.....sounds like standard legal boilerplate to me.
513/20/A-C seems pretty clear in that regard ....it's even been revised earlier this year and is now in BOLD print....."At sanctioned events, the CD should report any waiver holder operating in a reckless and dangerous manner to AMA. The CD should submit a WRITTEN report describing the infraction and include it when returning his event forms to the AMA following the event. This will be kept on file and the pilot will be notified of the infraction" Then it goes on to the actual pulling of the waiver for just cause, and right to appeal.....sounds like standard legal boilerplate to me.
Ilona replied with "You mean, about Superman?", showing that she had already heard about some of the concerns. She then went on to say that while the wording only mentions the event CD, a sanctioned event, and turbine powered models, any person who has witnessed what they genuinely believe to be unsafe flying at any time (even if it's with a prop-driven Ultimate biplane at your local field on a normal flying day) is welcome to contact the AMA (preferably Carl Maroney) and submit a written report on the incident. The AMA will then deal with the issue. She re-iterated that the complaint must be in writing (in case there is any legal comeback form the person in question) - a telephone call will not suffice, and that the reports must be only from people who actually witnessed the dangerous behavior in person - no hearsay, etc.
So, if you see, or have seen, anyone flying in an unsafe manner and you are unable to rectify the situation with a 1-on-1 discussion with the individual (which should ideally always be the first course of action - treat the person in the same way that you would like to be treated), then please feel free to email or snail-mail your report to Carl Maroney ([email protected]). Doing that might actually achieve something ; simply discussing it here probably will not.
Later,
Gordon
10-09-2003, 10:41 AM
#65
RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well said Gordon. Consider how you would want someone to approach you if you had a safety issue going on............
I can't tell you how many times Lloyd Ligon at my local field has come out to the flight line and jokingly, yet firmly, taken a stance against such issues as me landing my "belly landing, no gear" planes deadstick close to the pits, or some other small yet simple infraction of common sense. I always appreciate his way of getting a point across.
I can't tell you how many times Lloyd Ligon at my local field has come out to the flight line and jokingly, yet firmly, taken a stance against such issues as me landing my "belly landing, no gear" planes deadstick close to the pits, or some other small yet simple infraction of common sense. I always appreciate his way of getting a point across.
10-09-2003, 11:32 AM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gordon, your points are well-made and well-taken.....At a Jet Meeting, the CD has the ultimate responsibility, but surely can receive input from his Safety Officer, or any other participant who witnesses a developing safety issue.
At the club field, the Safety Officer and Board of Directors bear the ultimate responsibility for safety.
Documentation is of the utmost importance, during the inevitable appeals process as guaranteed by 513/20/C...possibly with legal counsel involved, as noted by Ilona, and I am sure seconded by Carl M.
Tom
[quote]ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc
Doing that might actually achieve something ; simply discussing it here probably will not.
At the club field, the Safety Officer and Board of Directors bear the ultimate responsibility for safety.
Documentation is of the utmost importance, during the inevitable appeals process as guaranteed by 513/20/C...possibly with legal counsel involved, as noted by Ilona, and I am sure seconded by Carl M.
Tom
[quote]ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc
Doing that might actually achieve something ; simply discussing it here probably will not.
10-09-2003, 07:06 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pilot recertification...NO WAY , get real people. Sounds to me like this guy fell trough the craks and shouldnt have been waivered in the first place. Lets see who sighned him off and tell em maybe look a little closer next time at someons skills before putting your John Hankock on that turbine waiver form. Pilot recertification ...your killing folks
Andy
Andy
10-09-2003, 10:11 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: jchris
Ben, thats wrong. Just spoke to the AMA to clarify. As soon as the CD leaves the field "after hours" the place is considered a regular AMA field and no longer an AMA sanctioned event. Outside "normal" event hours, it is OK to test fly jets, as long as there is sufficient light to do so. Not any different if a jet event is held at a local club field.
ORIGINAL: ghost-rider
You are absolutely correct about “event official timeâ€. I had a discussion few days ago with a top AMA official who also confirmed it. This was as a result of a private mail I sent to an individual that posted a picture of an airplane first flight at Superman.
You are absolutely correct about “event official timeâ€. I had a discussion few days ago with a top AMA official who also confirmed it. This was as a result of a private mail I sent to an individual that posted a picture of an airplane first flight at Superman.
You are correct and I am wrong. I apologize for the misinformation.
Regards
Ben
10-10-2003, 10:56 AM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gordon:
Since you talked to the AMA about this issue, did they say that they may contact the person in question and let him know what the complaint is about and WHO the person who witnessed/complianed about his flying is? I think the AMA is on the right track, but I am hoping this will not open a "personality issue" situation. Also, does the complaining person need to be an AMA member and/or an active experienced pilot?
Since you talked to the AMA about this issue, did they say that they may contact the person in question and let him know what the complaint is about and WHO the person who witnessed/complianed about his flying is? I think the AMA is on the right track, but I am hoping this will not open a "personality issue" situation. Also, does the complaining person need to be an AMA member and/or an active experienced pilot?
10-10-2003, 11:57 AM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ehab,
My understanding is any AMA member can complain about unsafe flying. As a CD I felt it was my duty to write a letter to Carl Maroney to complain. Everyone that has read this thread knows my position and I have no ulterior motives. The individual may very well be a very nice guy but he is an unsafe pilot.
David Reid
My understanding is any AMA member can complain about unsafe flying. As a CD I felt it was my duty to write a letter to Carl Maroney to complain. Everyone that has read this thread knows my position and I have no ulterior motives. The individual may very well be a very nice guy but he is an unsafe pilot.
David Reid
10-10-2003, 01:05 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: Ehab
Since you talked to the AMA about this issue, did they say that they may contact the person in question and let him know what the complaint is about and WHO the person who witnessed/complianed about his flying is?
Also, does the complaining person need to be an AMA member and/or an active experienced pilot?
Since you talked to the AMA about this issue, did they say that they may contact the person in question and let him know what the complaint is about and WHO the person who witnessed/complianed about his flying is?
Also, does the complaining person need to be an AMA member and/or an active experienced pilot?
Gordon
10-10-2003, 02:44 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
Also, a very large plane was stopped before takeoff and weighed. Subsequent to that he was able to fly but only with what looked like a 2 minute flight time on a partial fuel load.
Also, a very large plane was stopped before takeoff and weighed. Subsequent to that he was able to fly but only with what looked like a 2 minute flight time on a partial fuel load.
November 1, 2003
National Aeromodeling Center Headquarters
Muncie Indiana
4. New Business
a. Allow turbine powered single engine jet model airplanes a maximum
of 1 ½ gals of fuel. And, twin engines be allowed a max of 3 gals of
fuel on takeoff. ( McNeill )
10-10-2003, 03:01 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a. Allow turbine powered single engine jet model airplanes a maximum
of 1 ½ gals of fuel. And, twin engines be allowed a max of 3 gals of
fuel on takeoff. ( McNeill )
of 1 ½ gals of fuel. And, twin engines be allowed a max of 3 gals of
fuel on takeoff. ( McNeill )
10-10-2003, 03:06 PM
#74
RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: ghost_rider
That would soon change. Some good news from AMA, see attached e-mail excerpt for the oncoming EC meeting.
November 1, 2003
National Aeromodeling Center Headquarters
Muncie Indiana
4. New Business
a. Allow turbine powered single engine jet model airplanes a maximum
of 1 ½ gals of fuel. And, twin engines be allowed a max of 3 gals of
fuel on takeoff. ( McNeill )
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
Also, a very large plane was stopped before takeoff and weighed. Subsequent to that he was able to fly but only with what looked like a 2 minute flight time on a partial fuel load.
Also, a very large plane was stopped before takeoff and weighed. Subsequent to that he was able to fly but only with what looked like a 2 minute flight time on a partial fuel load.
November 1, 2003
National Aeromodeling Center Headquarters
Muncie Indiana
4. New Business
a. Allow turbine powered single engine jet model airplanes a maximum
of 1 ½ gals of fuel. And, twin engines be allowed a max of 3 gals of
fuel on takeoff. ( McNeill )
Bob
10-10-2003, 03:29 PM
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RE: Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Based on my understanding of the proposal, the 55 lb max weight limit would change to max dry weight. Then 1.5 gallons for single turbine engine airplane and 3 gallons for twin.
Regards
Ben
Regards
Ben