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BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

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Old 01-07-2004, 09:35 AM
  #1
rcalbuquerque
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Default BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

After reading all the posts [would you buy 2 ducted fan kits complete or one turbine] I'm not sure how to complete this plane.I have a newly built and beautifully finished with scale landing gear and brakes BVM F16. I bought this from a friend complete with uninstalled BVM .96 motor and fan.I am installing the radio gear and will be ready for power system within a week or so.Should I sell the motor and fan and buy the conversion to turbine kit that BVM sells for $700 then spend another $3000 for a good turbine motor.Please help me with this decision. How can I justify spending $4000 and what will be the differance between the two differant setups.I was thinking the P-70 would be about right.I can handle the plane.I can handle the speed.I can find the $$$ just need convincing its the right thing to do.Thanks
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Old 01-07-2004, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

I have never flown the DF version nor the turbine one yet. Although I have one with the Artes JF 50 in it and have seen mine fly three times now. I have been very happy with the way the plane flys and looks. The next time I take the plane out, I will fly her myself.

Sung
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Old 01-07-2004, 10:27 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Is this your first Jet? If so, I suggest DF. If you have been to a jet meet, and seen Turbines fly, I'm not sure you'd be asking this question. The day I flew my first Turbine, the next day I sold my DF F-15, and the next two weeks sold all my other non-high performance stuff at considerable losses to invest in the Turbine Technology. You justify it by the quality and assurance that the more expensive equipment is more reliable. I don't want to fly any jet that I can't go out and burn 35 flights down in a weekend without worrying that somethings not gonna hold up or work right. With DF, I found I was flying in patterns such that in any given position if the engine quit I could make it back to the runway. And thank goodness as I ended up with more deadstick landings than powered landings. How's that fun? Don't know.
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Old 01-07-2004, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

If money's no object......skip the DF. I did. I don't regret it for a second. I got a lot of help with the first flights though. Turbines just run and run and run and run......

The BVM F-16, while small by today's standards, is a nice flying and great looking model. The P-70 would be a great engine for it. A friend of mine who is a BVM and Jetcat rep took out the P-80 he had in his F-16 and is putting a P-70 in it, the P-80 was a really tight fit.

Whatever you do, enjoy.
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Old 01-07-2004, 01:22 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

If you'd seen the Sophia powered one of Dave Ribbe's at Superman fly, you wouldn't be asking the question. You'd be on the phone ordering your turbine! By the way, don't think that you need an engine that big to fly it nicely.
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Old 01-07-2004, 09:04 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Hi,

The plane is a lot of fun. It is also quite demanding on the operator. It is not tolerant of mistakes.
If you have a fair amount of Jet time, and are confident in your ability to fly the plane, and keep the engine running, the Turbine is great.

If you are not, finish it with the fan, and get some time on it at a lighter weight, then convert it to a turbine.
The P-70 or Bee would both work fine, The Bee may be a better choice for someone with less BVM F-16 time as I feel it is a lighter installation (I have flown it, and it is a nice setup).

The Sophia 850 is probably still the best choice for the experienced guy with HIGH power, and LOW fuel consumption... Really does the high alpha/hig wing loading thing well.

Regards,
David
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Old 01-08-2004, 09:54 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Thanks for the reply's .What would be the weight differance between the DF and turbine?Where can I get the specs on a Sophie? I know that a P-70 weighs 2.6lbs but I'm not sure how much the support eguipment or how much fuel is carried in the upgrade kit.What does a BVM .96 and fan weigh? Thanks
Louis Silva
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505-239-2367
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Old 01-08-2004, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Best guess at finished dry weight with optional engines....

BVM Fan 13 lbs Thrust about 9 air time 7

Bee 15 lbs Thrust?? 11? air time 10?
P-70 16 lbs Thrust?? 17? air time 7?
Sophia 850 17 lbs Thrust 19 (20+ turned up) air time 10


Remember, the fan carries roughly 1 lb of fuel.
The turbine carries roughly 5 lb of fuel.

You can calculate your takeoff weights, and thrust to weight ratios from there.
Your takeoff weight can range from 14 to 22 pounds.

For me, I like the installed thrust to weight (better than 1:1 at half fuel), and fuel economy of the Sophia, but the engine is out of production and not well supported.

I havn't seen someone try the P-70 yet, and I need to recheck the thrust.... but it seems like an option.

Hope this gives you and Idea
David
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Old 01-17-2004, 06:15 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

David Thanks for your advice!...I looked at your web site.....Wow all I can say is Congrats on some spectacular achievements. I have three engine choices in my opinion...the new Bee 14lbs @180,000rpm 1.5lbs .P70 16.5lb at 116,000rpms 2.6lbs or for 8oz more P120 will have all the thrust one would ever need. I am concerned about weight and am leaning toward the bee. I am at 6000ft and I know that makes a differance.I'm not looking to break any speed records but I do like to go fast..., what I want is a nice handling plane that will hold up, take off easily and not be to much of a handful to land.Not asking for much am I.Thanks again....LOU
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:41 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Lou,
Also remember the 120 may have a higher idle thrust than the smaller turbine. You would have to contend with that extra idle thrust on landings.
V..
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Vincent

Lou,
Also remember the 120 may have a higher idle thrust than the smaller turbine. You would have to contend with that extra idle thrust on landings.
V..

Wow excellent point. On a draggy plane this may not be a problem, but on a slick plane the residual thrust can be a big issue.
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Old 01-18-2004, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Matt what do you think? If this was your plane what would you install?
Lou
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Old 01-18-2004, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

120 is kinda overkill for this bird. I think you should stick with 12 to 17 lbs thrust in a smaller size turbine, Mw54 for example (Super Wren or PST 600R)

Ram 500 would even be a good choice except for the fuel mileage.
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Old 01-18-2004, 03:08 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcalbuquerque

Matt what do you think? If this was your plane what would you install?
Lou

Hi Lou,

I sent you a PM. I did not know you posted here. Sorry for the late reply, I have been away at the AMA headquarters for some meetings with the Frequency Committee.

I would try a P-70 (details in my PM). But if I REALLY was only going to buy one motor, I MIGHT look at something else. Details in my PM.

But let me say one more thing......when I bought my first motor, I could not envision ever getting another one, because of the cost.

I think many have had the same feeling.....but most of us get more. Trust me I am a working man, so I understand the money involved!

Anyway take a look at my PM and we can have a chat on it.
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:58 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Well, I can only reccomend the turbines smaller than a P-120 for this plane.

The Bee is intriguing... I don't know a lot about the company, etc, but the motor seems like a cool option, and the one I flew had plenty of power. Would like to fly this one some more.

I think the P-70 would be a nice compromise of everything, and Jetcat has a good reputation in my book.

At the end of the day, I think most modelers would like the plane better at a lighter weight, but I reccomend more power than a Ram 500.

David
(I won't be trading in my Sophia 850 any time soon with its power and fuel economy.)
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Old 01-19-2004, 12:14 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

I think you would find an MW54 size turbine would be the ideal size if you plan on installing the turbine engine. The 12 pound thrust engines will easily fly most models upto 20 lb AUW airframe...providing your flying from a sealed runway.
The T-500 from FTE maybe another good MW54 size turbine option for the BVM F-16....
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Old 01-19-2004, 01:20 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

I thought I would stay out of this one because it could cause some definite brand arguments but after thinking about it some I'll give you my take. I have had a BVM D.F. F16 for a lot of years now and recently purchased the BVM conversion kit that originally was designed around the RAM 500. I thought about putting the RAM 500 in it when I originally worked on the conversion but had second thoughts after hearing all the problems Chris Huhn had with his. However , I think that most of it was incomplete developement of the engine at the time. The other thing that I have discovered after seeing the aircraft perform in the hands of the F16 gurus such as David Ribbe and Gordon Dickens is that the bird really needs to A LOT of power to perform. Sure it will take off and cruise around with 12lb thrust turbines but if you get BEHIND the power curve on this puppy especially in dirty configuration you will be in trouble. Another thing that bothered me a bit was having all the fuel up front in the conversion which makes the bird really tuck in turns ( speed and lots of up elevator needed ). I decided to scrap the fuel placement and went with Gary Mueller ( JetTech ) 50 oz F16 centerlined tank. It is possible that there may be some increased drag but at the same time the CG will have been lowered and there will not be so much of a fore / aft change either.

Also I noted that you said you will be flying at 6000 msl. I truly believe you will have your hands full with it at that elevation with just 12 lbs of thrust. Being able to fly it close in is really important because it is very streamlined and will disappear very easily. The use of a higher thrust engine will pay for itself in the long run. David puts on a specatular show with his Sophia powered version. I am still amazed at how light he managed to get his ( that's why he is the Guru ! ). At this point mine is done and I personally will put a 14 - 16 lb turbine in it at a minimum. I fly at a field elevation of 2100 ft.

Best of Luck
Dean Wichmann
www.helijet.ca
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Old 01-19-2004, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Yes, I think Deans comments mesh well with mine. I think 14 lbs thrust is about the lower limit for the turbine powered BVM F-16. Anything less will be relatively marginal at dirty and high alpha conditions... You will just be slow getting out of the drag bucket.

The F-16 is not extremely fast. Mine is quite clean with a bypass, and no external stores... but it is still easy to keep the speed in check, and the accelleration is very manageable.

I wouldn't put any brand of 12lb thrust turbine in one of mine (It is NOT a brand thing) It is what is BEST for this particular and unique airframe.

David
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:41 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

It may be that the perfect engine for the F16 is about to arrive and that is the Wren Super Sport, due this (northern ) spring . This is a development of the Wren MW54 with a redesigned diffuser and combustion chamber and delivers 18 pounds of thrust from an engine wich is the same weight as the MW54 AND has a higher exhaust velocity which means that thrust decay will be less as a result of aircraft speed. It is also reported to be extremely fuel efficient, so its a win/win situation, more thrust and less weight. I will be receiving one of the fist production engines and will install it in my F16 for which the turbine conversion is complete, just paint retouching and gearing up to go.
I'll keep you posted.

David Gladwin.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

The BVM F-16 makes an excellent turbine ship. It does have a high wing loading (when converted) so take off and landings are a bit speed critical. The rest is great.

Good luck!!!
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:48 AM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Hi there David,

Ive been flying one of Wrens prototype Supersport 54`s in my BVM sabre and its now got over 100 flights on it. Theres really nothing like this engine around at the moment, it is supurb. 18lb thrust out of a that small light weight always turns heads when its flying and the fuel consumption really is unbelievable.It`s going be a real winner.

jason
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: sideshow

If money's no object......skip the DF. I did. I don't regret it for a second. I got a lot of help with the first flights though. Turbines just run and run and run and run......

The BVM F-16, while small by today's standards, is a nice flying and great looking model. The P-70 would be a great engine for it. A friend of mine who is a BVM and Jetcat rep took out the P-80 he had in his F-16 and is putting a P-70 in it, the P-80 was a really tight fit.

Whatever you do, enjoy.
Is that AFTER he repairs it?
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:09 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

Jason,

If you had 1.8 liters of fuel to work with, and run the engine in an average to somewhat more power than average fashion, What total run time, and what 'in the air time' would you expect to get with this Wren SuperSport?

Regards,
David
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

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ORIGINAL: dcronkhite

Is that AFTER he repairs it?
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Old 01-20-2004, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: BVM F16 Should i convert to turbine?

I would like this plane to be as light as possible. I would like to hear more about the Wren super sport.I'm considering installing a 76 oz centerline tank from Jet Tech and not using the BVM tanks.
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