P. Richards

My Feedback: (3)

Well guys here it is a thread on the issue of electrics and turbine aircraft sharing the same airspace. It's amazing that a BVM King Cat can loiter around at 30 m.p.h. down the run way through the valley and over the hills and nobody raises a concern or bats an eye, regarding a possible mid-air with slow moving aircraft. but let an edf jet fly around for 6 to 8 minutes and all of a sudden Houston we have a problem. Give me a break. Like it or not edf jets are becoming more popular and im not talking about park flyers. In most cases edf jets will outrun the average glow powered model. To my knowledge glow powered jets are still welcomed at most if not all events as long as they meet sound decible requirements (lol) Ive heard turbines that will bust an eardrum. Don't get me wrong I fly them all. Not everyone is able nor prepared to purchase a turbine aircraft hence the alternative (edf). Please post and let me know what you think constructive criticism never hurts. I am not looking for a war just some level playing field on this issue...

P. Richards aka SWAT TEAM

patf

My Feedback: (4)

some edf's can and some cannot. i think some of the gws stuff is a little anemic and does pose an issue mixing in with turbines. why the kingcat is not an issue is that he can mix in the pattern at speed upon request by another pilot or cd. There were several EDFs at Tuscon that really hauled the mail, then again there were a few that were marginal and occupying the center of the runway with pilots dodging them every circuit. just something different to get used to and figure out a work around.

MAX EFFFORT

my opinion is a/c must be of nearer to the same value or one guy will hurt a lot worse than the other after a mid air.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Not a bad observation.

What I don't understand is why control line, electric, rubber, free flight, indoor, scale, boats, etc. can all have events that I am not welcome at and no one cares in the least......but can you imagine the hew and cry if anyone dared to have a "turbine only" event!

At the last few big jet events I have been at, if they were "turbine only" you would have excluded maybe 5% of the pilots at most.

Why not have "electric only" meets? (oh wait they do have those).

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

So then a Facet and a BVM F4 should not be flown at the same time ?

As far as I'm concerned, this is really just the same issue as we all tend to experience at our club fields all of the time... put a race guy, a helicopter, a giant scale warbird, a hovering IMAC plane and a turbine in the air at the same time, and you will experience some interestng times. Define your own level of comfort, and don't go fly at the same time as those you feel uncomfortabel flying with. In the past I have approached certain pilots and pointed out that the combination of our model types and our flying style puts us at increased mid-air risk if we fly together, and we've made agreements that if one of us is flying, the other waits before going up. As long as you point out logical reasons for your concern, and don't make it sound like "I don't wanna fly at the same time as that piece of crap", or "you're dangerous - don't fly with me", then most people tend to be willing to come to an agreement. I don't see why similar arrangements / agreements couldn't be made at a meet.

Pat - I'd be happy to share the air with you no matter what type of model or propoulsion you are using, as long as you are flying a reasonably predictable path and/or call out when you are gonna do something "different". That's more important to me in many ways than just the speed.

Gordon

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I can fly and dodge planes like this at my club field all day long, I do not travel 3000 miles to do the same thing.

MAX EFFFORT

i totally agree gordon, my statement was not meant to say they shouldn,t fly together, but that the guy with the most invested ,hurts more, after a mid air or accident, if niether is obviously at fault.

Gordito Volador

My Feedback: (1)

Mr. Matt,

So you are out of the closet? You want to exclude the 5% non-turbine guys from jet events?

Mr. Daytona,

So it isn't fair if I fly my PST Turbine near a JetCat because it doesn't cost as much?

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

I think he's just saying it would be cool to have Florida Jets be a Turbine Powerplant only Event.

I agree, great Idea,

However, as I stated in another thread, the turbine guys are the best people to help the DF guys that are going to turbines get information.

I personally would hate to deny them the opportunity to learn something by denying them access to fly at a "jet" event.

In the older days, it was the "southwest fan fly" "ducted fan Jet rally" etc. When the first guy showed up with a turbine, did someone say get that "noisey" thing out of here?

I don't really care about the 5%'ers. There are very few DF flights that I witness at a jet event. It's really no big deal. And the electric guys I've seen fly very very little. Maybe BITW was different, I wasn't there.

Don't know what the answer is, but in theory, I don't have any issues with a turbine only event. Put it together, I just bought a 36' Diesel Pusher motorhome, I'll come.

Sean

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Out of the Closet?? Where does the rhetoric come from?

Let me invert your logic...should people who want to not be allowed to have a "turbine only" event if they want?

My club shuts down the field many times a year to events I cannot fly a turbine at...is that OK?

Ed Waldrep

Well I posted this in the Best In the West thread to counter the negative opinions expressed in that thread but it was deleted. However I'm sure the original anti-electric statements of a vocal few (some rational and valid opinions, and some based purely on "I'm better than you because mine cost more" bias) are still there.

P. Richards brings up a point I though about when reading that, the Kingcat flying around at 30 mph. Yes he can fit in when he needs to, but so can a 100 mph edf. You don't have to fly in the same diameter pattern as everyone else. Smaller airplanes are more likely to be flown on a narrower, tighter track because they are smaller and have a narrower profile if flown at the same distance as a bigger plane. So, if you could really be up high and looking down, a 4 foot long model will most likely be doing much smaller patterns than a larger 8 foot long model because the smaller model if flown at the same distance will look really small. When flying my EDF F-18 and A-10 on Saturday at BITW I found myself in the busier times heading for the sanctuary of the middle of the pattern, the middle of the circle where there's less traffic. There's various things you can do to blend in with a slower airplane, but I do agree that a GWS A-10 loafing around at 30 mph with turbines whizzing by isn't a great idea. A fast powerful edf flying at 90 to 100 mph is different, the speed differential isn't as great. I tend to wait until there's only 1 or maybe 2 other airplanes in the air before I fly my EDFs because I have more room to perform aerobatics and there's less traffic to worry about. I flew my A-10 on Saturday in the afternoon and had to abort a few maneuvers due to traffic and was able to blend in for the most part, but I'd rather fly with less traffic, so I can always wait and fly later.

Here's what I posted in the other thread:
I feel I should respond here to some of the negative views expressed about electric ducted fans.

Some have complained that they are too slow, but not all edfs are slow. A slower airplane can fit into the pattern (or inside of the outside track) if the pilot knows what he's doing and he has a good spotter. If speed differential is a problem then everybody should have autopilots to hold airspeed at a certain level. Even if everyone is going the same speed midairs can still happen...no one is sitting inside the airplane so distances can't be determined down to the foot. I do agree that one shouldn't launch a 30 mph parkflyer edf and hang out over the runway when there are four or five turbines flying low passes over the runway at high speed, it's common sense that isn't very smart. But a larger more powerful EDF that can fly at 100 mph isn't such a big deal if the pilot adjusts his position when needed. I've seen gas ducted fans like the little Kyosho F-86 fly at jet rallys and they struggle into the air and certainly don’t fly at 120 mph and no one complained! I tend to wait till things die down a bit before I fly, trying aerobatics when there's five other airplanes in the air doesn't work that well.

Some of you here don't like electrics and that's fine, but you should realize that just because it runs on electrons doesn't make it weak and wimpy. There is a lot of junk on the market in electric airplanes thanks to the likes of certain manufacturers who supply weak motors and batteries, but there is high performance stuff out there that can hit 200 mph. I myself don't like the park flyer stuff that limps around, I get bored with that, but I try not to put down those people and think I am better than they are just because my toy cost more money. I like jets, like my F-18 that flew at Best In the West. I like the challenge and the looks. No it doesn't do 200 mph but some other models can, and who says it has to do 120 mph just to fit in? Just because I didn't send a company 5 grand doesn't mean it isn't cool, and I can get to the field, grab my airplane, radio, and a battery pack, walk out, fly, and leave before you even get your turbine gassed up! Turbines are cool and I'd love to have one but I enjoy EDFs more now and I can afford them. I like having something unique that I built myself, and that's where edfs are at. There aren't a lot of kits out there so scratchbuilding is what you have to do sometimes.

I flew my A-10 in the afternoon when it was fairly busy but I did a lot to stay out of the way of people making low passes. If someone was right behind me I know it's not a good time to pull a loop over the runway. It's not as fast as the F-18 and I know that, so I adjust. Several times I modified a maneuver to pull out heading away from the runway so I wouldn't be facing oncomming traffic. My spotter did a good job of pointing out traffic and I can hear things around me and see with peripheral vision what's coming. You can't be totally safe with 2 airplanes in the air, midairs are always a possibility, but the big sky theory works most of the time. I've seen 19 Zagis in the air at the same time trying to hit each other on purpose and there were no collisions! I’ve also seen two turbines mid-air at jet rallys as well. Doing things like flying the same direction increase the reaction time so that helps.

hoser

well I hope we are continued to be accepted at jet events.

I love Jets.... EDF's will be my stepping stone to a turbine and waiver. but I will never stop flying EDF's

I have gotten a lot of support and encouragement from a lot of turbine guys, and I had a great time at Florida Jets and got a lot of support.

all I ask is that you all please keep an open mind...... cause I think our numbers are growing

I believe as long as EDF pilots follow the rules and fly responsibly there should not be a problem.


BTW these EDF's aren't cheap or slow

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

A perfectly valid point of view .. but if you can simply get the event organisers to state ahead of time whether they are going to permit slow models or not, presumably you can make your determination about whether to travel a long distance to the event.

BTW, I agree with you about the screams that there would be from some quarters if a number of events were defined as turbine only. I'm not sure why its considered okay to have a ducted-fan-only event, or an electric-only event etc., but not kosher to suggest a turbine-only event ... but the world is unfortunately full of such contradictions. At the local job fair that concentrates on engineers, there have been booths for such special interest groups as the African American engineers, Women engineers, Gay engineers, over-40's engineers, and what not... but I know I would be sued out of existence if I tried to open up a booth for the heterosexual white male under 40's engineering society ! Sometimes you just aint allowed to be exclusive, and there needn't be any kind of logic to it at all ! [X(] Go figure.

Gordon

Have Blue

Banning EDFs from jet meets isn't a great solution. Future jet meets should classify jets in three classes 1) Turbine, 2) IC and 3) EDF. Based on the number of entries, allocate each "class" with designated flying times, that means Turbines will fly with Turbines and EDF with EDF. I see EDF passing IC soon since Turbines have taken over at most meets, maybe IC will be as rare as EDF was 9 years ago?

Just my 2 pence

Ed Waldrep

Another thing I'd like to know, what model is causing all of this bickering? The Microjet (which was flown by an official unless I'm mistaken), or the Salamander, or something else? I didn't see a Salamander fly I must have missed it. As to the comment in the other BITW pictures thread about a hand launch jet almost crashing into airplanes, I was at BITW last year and on Saturday a Roo flew over the pits, over my head, and crashed into the announcer tent....and it wasn't hand launched! However, I would think that the hand launch stuff would be done at slower times of traffic.

There are some here (the highly vocal 1%) that are clearly snobbish to anything that doesn't breathe kerosene. Well if you don't like something fine but trying to exclude them from an event because you don't like them isn't good PR. I don't particularly like limp wristed stick type parkflyers but I don't go chasing them down and running them off. There's a few like that in any group (pattern and IMAA are ones that I've had dealings with) but for the most part I've felt welcome at turbine events, especially when I have an airplane that performs well. Banning electrics from jet events wont end midairs. It's made to sound here like the skies at BITW were full of parkflyer edfs. That's not what I saw.

bruff

My Feedback: (18)

I think most of the newer EDF jets can fly with turbines with no problems. If some club wants to put on a "Turbine only fly-in that is great. I just don't want to convert an existing event to a "turbine only event". Again I agree a GWS A-10 should not go up when a group of turbines are already in the air. At the Arizona Jet Rally there was no problems with the different types flying together but, there were very few of the parkflier types there. Here is a picture of my 15 lb 80" wingspan electric EDF that does 90-100 MPH. I'm pulling 1 kilowatt of power from each motor. It flies very well with the turbines. My normal flight tome is 7+ mins with a 5 min reserve on power.
Bob

grbaker

My Feedback: (29)

hoser

I saw your Mirage and Cat fly at Florida Jets and I don't think you got in anyones way when you flew them. I was very impressed with the high speed performance as well as the duration of the Cat. I quit EDFs because I decided I couldn't afford EDFs and Turbines. Someday I may have to go back to EDFs, so keep up the good work!

Daren Savage

My Feedback: (6)

I say if someone wants to organize a turbine only event, why not? There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it last I checked. I agree with Bob about converting existing events, but if the organizers wanted to, it's really up to them.

Daren

Gordito Volador

My Feedback: (1)

I fly ICDF, EDF, & have a Turbine in the finishing stages................Have any event you want, call it what you want. Just don't be duplicitious about it. If you want turbines only just say so, and call it a Turbine Rally. If you are having a Jet Rally then invite DF, EDF, and Turbines....no problem, just say so. Don't wait till the day after and turn on the flames. Or better yet have time slots at a mixed event. As I recall FL Jets went really well for everyone, that's because Frank runs a tight professional ship and he had a great air boss crew. That's no reason to recommend that FL Jets be a turbine only event. But then again if the promoter wants to have FL Turbines 2005 then it is his party.

Have Blue

What if this guy shows up with his Rocket Powered ME163 Komet? It's still considered a jet, will he too be excluded?

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/r...ages/rc078.wmv

bruff

My Feedback: (18)

Not sure but the real one was rocket powered. It was never a jet.
Bob

hoser

THANKS Gary!!!!

I have only flown that mirage a couple of times so I was weak at the knees and sloppy on the landings but if flies good!. it getting "lipo-suction" now so flight times will increase to 14 minutes for 1 charge.

The bob e cat (or as the BVM crew call it "kitty cat") is a pleasure to fly, and it made the Florida jets video

BTW Bill I hope FL jets does not go turbine only, I really had a great time at several of them ...Frank does a great job.

Have Blue

I don't know some will argue that one? I think jet, but forget a jet is powered by a turbine only right? Then that means the X-1 and X-15 are just plane old gliders and EDF's are just like a Jet Ski out of the water.

MAX EFFFORT

163 was rocket plane, for sure.

RCParkflyer

First off it is up to the event promoter to decide what type of aircraft they want flying at their event. There is no reason that you cannot have a Turbine only event, and if someone wants to promote one, Lord bless them, have at it. I'm sure you'd have great attendance.

With Turbine aircraft you are dealing with a highly specialized form of RC Flight. Turbine aircraft are the Top Fuel Dragsters of the RC world. I for one, would like to see everyone get along, and I believe that for the most part everyone can make allowances so that it can happen. It's just a matter of common sense, really. The Electric Ducted fan industry is still in it's infancy for the most part. As the equipment and batteries become stronger, we will see quite a few 100-200 mph electric jets.

I'm sure that turbine powered aircraft will become cheaper in the future too, there are already small turbines that produce less than 5 lbs of thrust, and as the price comes down, there will be a lot of electric flyer's who make the switch to turbine power. However, I really doubt that I will be one of them, as I enjoy the ease of using Electric power for my jets.

I see no reason why high powered electric's cannot fly with Turbines, as long as there is some type of parity with aircraft speed, the type of power system used shouldn't matter at all.

And at the risk of teeing someone off I'd also like to point out that there there is no real reason why a turbine Has to fly at 200 mph also, other than the pilot's vanity.

Just my $0.02 worth.