Gazzer

Guys,

Before anyone !QUOT!shoots!QUOT! me down, please do read the whole post!!!!

Some time ago in RCJI there was a splendid Douglas Skyhawk with a note that the builder had working missiles on the aircraft.

I have had this idea in mind ever since then, but of course with safety being the prime directive, I realised that having a cut down Estes bolted to the wing ready for ignition would force everyone with a transmitter to land and never leave mother earth again!!

However, the idea has always been in my mind as something that would look rather good. But how could this be done safely.

Solid or liquid fuel is out, and one has to be wholly mindful that the weapon could cause some problems. I put the thought in the back of my mind until my son (all 11 years old) snuck up on me and got me with his air powered pump action 4 shot depron firing gun.

It did not hurt a tiny little bit but was pretty impressive and scared the hell out of me!! I will let him out of his room in the next week or so!

So I go to thinking whether it would be feasible to have a missile made out of depron or similar low density material, fired using air or compressed gas (Co2?) with the kind of theatrical liquid smoke to give it the impetus.

So, with just a theoretical !QUOT!what if!QUOT! in mind, I thought I would put the thoughts to the great and the good.

As this is my first post I really want to endorse the fact that I recognise reality from fiction, and that anything leaving the aircraft at any time, has to be safe, wholly , completely and irrefutably. That way I hope you wont think I am an idiot, just a person with a thought looking for some ideas and thoughts?

Hope to hear from people soon,

Gazzer

wsmalley

My Feedback: (6)

I'm sure others will chime in on this one but there was the famous B29(?) that carried an X1-I think, which launched and flew, RC guided. Looked as though it was model rocket powered. I think it crashed at the Joe Nall event in S. Carolina a few years back. It's been written up many times in past mags. It may be the factor that made this OK was that it was capable of being 'flown'. Personally, I think it would look 'cool' and air power would definately be safer because of speed and range than solid fueled. I don't-again personally- see any difference than dropping bombs with talc! The question too, is under what rules you propose to do this where you fly, we're precluded from this by AMA.

Bill_Jehle

My Feedback: (1)

Mac Hodges' B-29 was rebuilt and flew the halftime shows this weekend at Top Gun. It is as spectacular as ever. The X-1 is a rocket assisted glider which is AMA approved.

Randy M.

My Feedback: (38)

Unless you put the air supply in the missle itself, it would be tough just to get a launch. Then it would just look like a bomb release. Traveling at, say, 100 mph, you would need to propell the missle at least more than that. How fast was the one that hit you going? Not trying to rain on your parade, it would be cool. The Avonds plans I had for the F14 have such missles on them, powered by shotgun shells with the shot removed. There was a firing pin controlled by a servo to fire them.

Oosiksmith

My Feedback: (1)

Not sure why you are all afraid of solid rocket motors on missiles. Its been done safely quite a bit. I used to live in a remote area and we did it routinely with no problems (only burnt some covering on leading edges). I guess the AMA has to prohibit it, but that doesn't really make it unsafe because they said so. They actually sanction it at many rocket meets (think of the hundreds of thousands of Estes rockets that have been fired without a single mistake). When I was in college we designed, constructed, and launched a solid fuel rocket that went to about twenty thousand feet. We selected solid fuels because they were incredibly safe. (by the way, yes, we did have an FAA clearance) After that successful launch we then moved on to hybrid fuels....semi solid fuels which are throttlable and could be turned off if needed---pretty exotic stuff......got to talk to NASA consultants on that one.

The photo I've attached came off the RCU legacy site (unfortunately, the larger pictures are no longer available). If guys weren't running around doing stuff the AMA said was unsafe we wouldn't even get to enjoy turbines. Way to many old farts building empires and inventing rules. Just go out and do it, then tell us how much fun you had doing it. I'm not blowing off safety here, just trying to apply some simple risk analysis. Oh yeah, don't forget to take pictures for the rest of us to enjoy.

Tim

http://utopia.rcuniverse.com/showthr...ghlight=rocket

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

A buddy of mine and I used to launch Estes rockets off of the wings of glow powered planes years ago, back before it was not AMA kosher (or at least we did not know). I guess it was about 1978 or so. It worked well. Lots of safe fun.

Oosiksmith

My Feedback: (1)

Hmmm. I've just got to ask.......has anyone ever heard of an incident where a person was hurt or killed, a building destroyed, the planets misaligning, or the end of the universe occurring due to an Estes rocket being launched from an RC plane? Perhaps this is big brother AMA protecting us from ourselves. Everyone should remember to wear thier bicycle helmets whenever they leave the safety of thier bedroom and don't drive over 35mph. Its too dangerous.

I don't know why the new RCU won't let me post the link to the old RCU thread; instead, go to the old RCU legacy site at:

http://utopia.rcuniverse.com/

Then go to the [jets] forum, do a search for "rocket' then go to the very last page and read "jet stuff, missiles!!!"

BlueBus320

My Feedback: (57)

I think it would look cool as hell, but can think of a few reasons solid or liquid fueled rockets could be very dangerous. For instance some guy is working on his plane in the pits & you hear the dreaded "oh *****"...you hope he inadvertently hit the gear switch (which we all know happens & is currently about the worst switch you can make a mistake with)...but then you see a small dot & a smoke trail comming straight for you. Or a rocket is fired from a jet that the owner didn't realize the down angle at the wing tips due to washout & into the spectators it goes.
Do I think I & the gentleman that started this post can probably safely pull it off ?...YES.
Do I think everyone in this hobby around the country with a turbine waiver can do it for a year straight without incidents ?...damn sure wouldn't bet on it !!!!
Jay

Gazzer

Hi guys,

Thanks for the comments.

That Roo really does look something!!

Well to answer some questions, I fly in the UK and do not for one second doubt that the same restrictions imposed by the AMA will apply here from the BMFA. In fairness, I can see some of the reasons for reducing the risk, not everyone would approach such a project in a considered and risk aware manner. I always remember the guy who tried to hover his first helicopter...... in his front room!!! People like that don't always look when they cross the road!

If no waiver could be established with certain parameters (and the wide open spaced so not exist as much in this tiny Island), then having some kind of fuelled propellant in the rocket is out.

The point made about the Nerf gun is right too, the density of the foam is low and the distance fired short. As soon as you put wind resistance at 100 mph in to place, then the rocket is going to go backwards on release! I was able to see the Nerf dart come towards me, not quick enough to get out the way though!

The trick is therefore to find an inert on board propellant and to have a wholly safe material used for the missile housing.

My mind shifts to the water powered rockets. These time and time again appear to be simple and effective in operation and who get hurt being sprayed by water. They also would use all the propellant prior to hitting the ground making the weight of the missile minimal.

One just needs to find some kind of delay to ensure you don't get a flamout with all the water spray around!!!!!!!

Anyone more thoughts, this one might just work!

Gazzer

DaveJohansen

My Feedback: (8)

I have give my 2 cents worth. You have no control of where that "missile" will land. I have launched model rockets and they do not always fly where you think they will. In addition they do not always fire immediately sometimes there is a delay. If you have a miss fire on your rocket powered missile, could you imagine what could happen if it decides to launch as you are flying back to land. Using CO2 would definitely be safer.

JohnMac

Gazzer,
Definately illegall in the UK I'm afraid. The CAA (stands for the Campaign Against Aviation IMO, but officially the Civil Aviation Authority), have banned us dropping or firing anything from our models in the UK. That said you can always apply for an exemtion. I saw it done at show with rockets fired from a model of a Hawker Tempest at least 25 years ago.
I want to fit flares on my Mig 29. Tactical departure, Full burners, rotate into the vertical, gear travelling and make with the flares!
That would be something.
Regards,
John.

UK Flier

John I don't think it is quite as bad as you say. Here is the exract from the Air Navigation Order that the BMFA quotes

(1) A person shall not cause or permit any article or animal (whether or not attached to a parachute) to be dropped from a small aircraft (defined by the CAA as a model up to 20 kg without fuel, Ed ) so as to endanger persons or property


I think the key here is "person or property"

There should not be people or property where you fly, so it gives some options, torpedos bombs and parachutes even toffees etc. As long as gravity is the only factor it shouldn't be an issue. And you keep out of the no fly zones, and take account of wind etc etc

Missiles are another story, the lack of directional control over missiles makes them a potential problem, unless you have access to a big desert like the guy above. Not too many of those in the UK.

Anyone tried elastic/rubberband powered missiles of lightweight foam. just use a servo to release a pin holding back the band releasing the energy into the missile. Might just work with the wind behind you :-)


Just my 2p

John

roycegraham

It just takes one bad time out of 1000 to cause injury to yourself or others. I have been pondering and thinking for a long time, "that would be easy to make" - a rocket launch system on my bird. I've even looked into taking a cap firing yard dart and adding a M80 to it. These things are better left in my mind than on my work bench or at the flying field. If you fly on your own land, the Mojave dessert or other place where there are no people, houses, cats, dogs, cars or endangered species, then I think it's cool to engineer firing RC pyrotechnics. But as a ealier poster put it, some people don't look when they cross the street. It's not us guys to worry about...it's the other guy you have to look out for. Take an irresponsible guy, who already doesn't fly his plane safe ... then add explosives! No way. The AMA has a ban on this, and that's got to be one of the main reasons for it.

Qualified individuals can seek a permit/waiver for air demonstrations from the AMA. If you can get one of those, then knock yourselves out.

Miniflyer

Here is the pic again, a bit larger.

I think it is way cool as long as you don't aim at anybody/naything...maybe shoot them with an up-vector to be safe, but apart from that....why the hell not???

Gazzer

I am going to be dropping bombs to start courtesy of the BVM EZ Hangar and their new moulded devices!!!!!!

From then, well if the safety (for that is the only thing that counts) factor can be resolved, then I will look at it again, but I think in the UK it will be a non starter unless you tilt the plane on its back and just fire the rockets using it as a stand!!!!!!

Safety safety safety, otherwise it would not be fun.

Gazzer

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I think you just have to have a micro radio in your "missle" and then you are operating under the same rules as the X-1 dropped from the B-29.

At the larger scales, a cruise missle, Phoenix or even AMRAAM would be big enough to mount a micro radio system in, and then you are in business, all AMA legal!

Gazzer

Now that is good thinking!!!

There is lots of micro radio, around and a bit of adjustment to the vanes and "hawa" she blows.

I guess really it is release in a climb of at least 45 deg and then send the rockets skyward.

I have a few little Estes in the attic, will see what the look like.

Again, safety safety first.....

Chip in if this is felt "dodgy",

Gazzer

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Well, I think this could be done as safely as anything else, but it takes a good modeler to do it, and from what I have observed, good modelers seem to be in pretty short supply these days (present company excluded!!!)

I mean, NOT flying RC planes at all is safer than flying them! So relative safety is tricky to define.

We have places here in southern california that are dry lake beds, you could easily launch these "scale rocket gliders" safely, and still meet the letter of our AMA safety code with the radio control on board.

Not sure of what the situation is with the BMFA, we all have our crosses to bear!

Gazzer

Not that many salt lake flats round here, or deserts come to think of it........

One of my Estes malfunctioned once and shot off parallel to the ground, it began to go nose up just before the end of the rocket blast, and all landed safely about 1/2 mile away.

I guess again what you would do is curtail the rocket by having a shorter burn time.

It will be something to experiment with when no one is around.

I would class myself not as a modeller but as someone with good ideas and intents but two left hands and a lack of ability......... does not stop me trying though!!!

I guess you would only need one channel and some of that park fly radio gear, as you only need to move fins in unison.????

Gazzer

MerlinL14

Gazzer, how far south are you?? At Shoebryness there is an MOD Artillery closed test area. That has hundreds of achres of 'open' land. They are willing to allow civilians on to the area for 'dangerous' rocket testing. You would have to contact them first and speak to one of the leasion officers there, but I have found that they would welcome your "test" days and you would have a very good audience . There is also Salisbury plain which has no access restricions other than gated entry which is only manned on live fire days. Again speak to range control in Larkhill over access.

b17flyer

My Feedback: (32)

I did it with vortac releases and estes rockets.
very accurate as the fins have air on them in flight.
the rocket carries all the bat/sw/motor.
the plane just releases it.
the rocket has a mico switch on it and when released closes the circuit...ignition.
just use two aa or aaa to 3 volts ...go for 1-2 ignitions.(that was before nimh)
also no burnt covering as the rocket is away from the plane before ignition.
looks like a f14 launchinh a phoneix.



now since the motor's backcharge is a flame...small fireworks can be placed in the tube for a bomblet effect.[:-]
I alway got a kick out of the other guys that came up withe these rails/tubes the have to protect the wing.
or worse.. the retractable launch rods

[8D]with a standard set up like above, only the armament are different. can still go to fly ins with normal bombs

b17flyer

My Feedback: (32)

And speaking of controlled bombs...
there was a link a found that some one built a small laser guided bomb.
showed the circuits for the guidance system and used 2 hs50 on the fins.

I CAN't FIND IT ANYMORE
that would be cool [8D]

Gazzer

Problem is if I typed in Laser guided bombs in google, I would the SAS and homeland security around me in seconds!!!

Sounds like you had a blast!!!

Re hitting this thread still has me inspired, but there is a lot more for me to conquer first........

Mind if I do something meantime, I'll let ya all know!!!!

Gazzer

Gazzer

Hey Merlin,

I know Salisbury Plain a little too well!!! EX military and cas evaced off, after going for it too much in 90deg plus!!!

Larkhill School Of Gunnery........ hmmmmmmm have they got a runway??

If I could establish proper control of a missile, (it would no longer be a rocket) then that would be really quite something, and if launched off an aircraft, again, it would be spectacular. A bit like that NASA coverage of the scram jet, drop, ignite whhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

But, I go back to safety first, but one day, maybe one day, perhaps the PCM failsafe releases the chute early???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gazzer

cnbhome

My Feedback: (2)

While this is all great fun and I personally want to build a gun for one of the big A-10's, including the ammo so it will fire electrically and sound right. What happenes if somebody really gets serious with a big block of C4 and blows something up for real using all of the neat stuff that we have access to and the Government turns off RC planes. I really think it is only a matter of time before this happens what with the ability to guide our toys autonomously now.

Chris