seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Now I have my answer!!

Chris, your post is exactly the reason why my "rampage" (not my word but word of higer ups at RCU put me under moderated posts).

Turns out that there have been underlying dogs who post cool gadgets here and not post that they are a maker and seller of such gadgets.

Then somone like you and I go "hey, I want that gadget" and bingo, said poster just got free advertising.

That's not fair.

I'll be glad to discuss this further with anyone.

But it gets a lot more conveluded as I'll show you

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Now get this, Jeremy posts all those amazing pictures and tutorials of paint jobs.

Then guess what, people start emailing him and PM' him "hey, how much to paint my jet".

What has Jeremy unintentionally done? Got free advertising and made a sale.

This stuff is so convaluded that I've even broken the rule and never noticed it.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Last year I built an F-15 and someone emailed me and said "how much to build an F-15 like yours". And ya, I sent him a number.

So now I'm a dirty dog cause I wasn't even thinking about how that bypasses and impacts RCU earnings.

Someone smarter than me wrote me this:

In order to get income from advertisers, he has to give them something of value in return, otherwise they will drop their ads. I can't even tell you how many times I saw advertisers lay down the law that if we didn't do something to stop all of the "free" advertising that was being done on the forums, then they would drop their ads and resort to underhanded promotional posts as well. We tried numerous approaches to try to find some middle-ground, with little or no success. Several times we tried things like letting the one- or two-man shops get a promotional post in rather than treating them the same as the big-name manufacturers, and it simply didn't work, so in the end Marc had to come up with the best compromise that he could. It is imperfect, since no perfect solution to this issue has yet been found, and since the people interpreting and enforcing the rules are human and fallible too. If the alternative is to allow a free-for-all that makes the advertisers and forum sponsors stop paying their bills, then which choice do you think is best ?


And my response to that is, *** (my W T F, WAS TAKEN OUT, AND I LIKE IT HERE, SO THERE )? This person further suggested coming up with something, but you know what? I'm a pretty sharp guy and I can't answer this one. Any ideas guys? This is a very good problem to be thinking about. Seriously, cause it makes me think about all the posts I've made and damn, I go to show someone something cool or how to do something and that's basically a statement of "look how this can be done, if you can't do it, you should contact me about it, maybe something can be worked out".

Not necessarily true, but could be.

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Chris, what is the current coconut exchange rate?

ghost_rider

My Feedback: (20)

Sean

Do not kill the messenger. I do not make RCU rules but rather enforce it. If you have any objections, please direct it to Marc the RCADMIN.

As I explained to you yesterday in a PM, the thread was reported to me as commercial post by a member of RCU. I had two alternatives either move the thread to a location called Bad Post Holding forum where no member could see it or move it to Product Announcement forum where member could get to it. I chose the later because I thought that would be more beneficial to Paul. I sent a PM to Paul detailing my action. I later spoke to Paul on the phone and I believe we have good understanding after our phone conversation.

Paul is no longer pushing this issue with me but rather he is directing his concerns to the appropriate authority that could change the rule. You may also want to channel your efforts towards the appropriate authorities that make rules here on RCU.



Again Sean you statement is incorrect my friend. I moved the post to Product Announcement Forum. A Community Moderator moved it from P&A to another forum.

Paul sent me a PM last night about the move and I promised him that I would look into it. The Community Moderator that moved the thread to another forum has contacted Paul and as far as I am concerned, I have held up to my promise to Paul.

Regards

Ben

mvigod

We always are examining and re-examining our commercial posting policies and rules on RCU. This rule and enforcement poses an ongoing problem for balance of content with the need for rcu to also keep advertisers content. I'm sure everyone would agree that if an advertiser could post ads for free as new threads that there would be no need to pay. If that was the case 2 things would happen. First the forums would be overrun with spam, commercial posts, vendor pissing contests and so on. By having a policy on this we eliminate the need for vendors to try and outdo each other here. Second without advertisers RCU cannot provide the level of service and innovation which is need to run the site and improve.

These rules are difficult at times. Don't blame Ben or any mod for enforcing them. They did not write them but merely help us enforce them for the overall good of the site. Our goal is to make RCU the best place for RC content and obviously every rule we have was designed towards that end and not to just randomly bust chops.

The probro thing runs a lot deeper. That was forum I was warned against creating from day one. Special interest groups, clique's and such mean you have insiders and outsiders. The dynamics of this sort of clique became apparent when one single post was removed that was clearly commercial. In the end I removed the special interest forum and dumped the posts into our main fun flying/profile forum which is the way it was before the probro forum was created (again a mistake in retrospect). I would never remove the jets forum as the two scenarios are totally different. If there was a "Jet Jock Brotherhood" forum here that members had to join in to become part of then it would be analagous but that isn't the case here.

Jet guys helped to make RCU into what it is today and we are sensitive to try and make sure information flows here on RCU. There is no 1st amendment here as we are a moderated forum so always keep that in mind.

We are examining some rules and areas where these gray areas exist to see if there are detrimental effects of allowing such posts to exist. If not we then have to carefully create the guidelines so others dont' try to work around them and find loopholes (which we all know somebody will try right?). This is never easy but please have patience. I cannot give 100% of my time right this second to it because I'm knee deep trying to get our forum upgrade done and rolled out for you guys so please hang tight.

LGM Graphix

My Feedback: (22)

ok, I found the product announcments section, but I still can't find anything about lights LOL!!!!!

LGM Graphix

My Feedback: (22)

For what it's worth, my only intention with the painting tutorial was to help people out, I don't feel I've advertised anything, and even if I have, I would like to think that MAYBE it was a case of I'll scratch your back you scratch mine for the hours I spent typing out the tutorial. I'll be doing another tutorial on an actual jet in the near future, but the other thing to keep in mind is that I have never gotten a job from posting any of those pictures due to shipping costs. I have had people email me and ask, but nobody has been willing to pay the ridiculous shipping amounts from Canada back to the US.
Anyway, I'm still trying to find these damn lights that have created such a huge fuss

JPOFL

My Feedback: (36)

Hi Guys
Ben is coerrect in what he is saying, We had a long talk and we need to direct the post to the right people
and I am working on that now. By the time I got my BP down,it was to late to email anybody. I am working on how to go about keep this from happing again. It will take some time I'm afraid. The idea I have to simulate Afterburnners using LED's
is in the early stages of development and at this time I am not selling them. I was looking for Ideas on how to keep them from melting or being dammaged by heat. I think I have worked it out, but there is alot of flight testing that has to be done before I can think on selling them. Their not going to be for every type of aircraft just a select few. The reason I picked the eurofighter is alot of us are using a single pipe and with that setup heat would not be a problem because there is plentey of room in the unused tail cones. If everything goes ok maybe by Superman I could have something done and closer to thinking about marketing
them, and I will post them in the proper place at that time.
New ideas is what us interested. Please let's back off the name calling it does do any of us any good. I was upset more about not being able to speek my piece then I was about moveing the post.

Good Luck and Good Flying. See you all at Superman this fall.
Thanks for the sorport from all.
Paul Hopkins [email protected] 407-654-1133 anytime. [8D]

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

So where exactly is the thread now?

JPOFL

My Feedback: (36)

Ben
I still am not sure where it is, I am looking for where it was moved to.
Maybe if it is not braking any rules you can post where it has moved to.
If I understand it is loacated under Tips on how to do something.
Paul

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Jeremy, nothing personal, just a really good example of how a post could be read two entirely different ways.

One: informative
Two: Look at this quality, and for $$$$$$$ you could have it tooo. (which is not such a big stretch since both of us have been contacted or quotes)

George

My Feedback: (57)

Sean, your no fun anymore[sm=wink.gif], now because you're "moderated"[sm=pirate.gif], we have to wait to see what you've said {Awaiting Approval} [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif].

Get off THAT list and come play with us, nicely.[sm=biggrin.gif]

ghost_rider

My Feedback: (20)

..

ghost_rider

My Feedback: (20)

click [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2128677/anchors_2128677/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2128677]here[/link] or look at the Jets forum

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

George, no explanation as to why I'm coming in and out of waiting approval status, but think my voice will come through in the long run unmoderated.

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

IMO Ben, you guys are WAY too quick to pull the trigger on posts.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

And not quick enough on others........... But then again, believe me, no one is quicker than me to jump up and say something is BS.

When I got into the meat and potatoes of this offline with several people, it became clear to me on this particular issue anyway what a crummy piece of crapola it must be to figure out who's doing what and why from a moderators standpoint. You can bet in the future (on this issue) I'll jump in with more than .02!!

Ben took some undeserved rash on this one IMO. And I'm always throwing oxygen on fires. So I'll take a little blame.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Sometimes if you leave a commercial post up for a bit, rather than moving it as soon as you see it, that creates even more problems because (a) by then the thread has gained critical mass and simply won't die off; (b) you get complaints from manufacturers who ***** about the fact that their post was removed in only 11 minutes, whereas some other guy's commercial post stayed up a whole 4 hours before it was removed. If the person whose post got to stay up a tad longer also happens to be an aquaintance of one of the mod's (as seems to be the case here) then cries of cronyism and bias are screamed to the heavens. When it comes to the issue of commercial posts, it often seems that you simply can't win no matter what you do.

That said, I can assure you that with the possible exception of some brand new moderator who has not yet done any work in his forum(s), there is not a single moderator on RCU who has not made mistakes in terms of which posts to nuke, which to move, which discussions to let run vs which ones need some serious attention. Moved or removed threads (etc) are discussed at length in the moderator's private forum, partly so that the mod's can try to learn from each other, and partly so that the decisions can be revisited and overruled as necessary.

Moderating is not an exact science. It's all about judgement calls that are affected by a whole range of factors ranging from what the latest guidance is that RCU management has handed out (which might even contradict what they said the day before) to how much time the mod has to take care of an issue before rushing off to do his day job (you know - the one he actually gets paid for), his personal knowledge of the poster and his prior interaction (if any) with that person, and maybe even how many fires he's fighting in the other RCU areas that he may be responsible for.

So - maybe Ben did act a little quickly on this one - there again maybe he didn't. Without being privy to all of the info - including the user complaint that triggered the removal, Ben's knowledge of Paul's business, any prior discussions between them, any discussion on this topic that appeared iun the mod's forum, etc., I really couldn't say whether the absolutely best possible decision was made at the time. But - the fact is, the decision was made, revisted multiple times, and finally reversed. If RCU was the dictatorial site that some people would have us believe from their rants, that would not have happened - the original decision would have been upheld no matter what, and anyone who disagreed would have been instantly and permanently banned. Next time any of you has a post nuked or moved or whatever, bear that in mind and consider whether your issue an be resolved in an amicable way without silly threats about lawyers, or screaming about censors, fascists, nazis, and all the other worn-out insults that the mod's deal with all the time. The over-reaction is simply amazing IMO.

Later,
Gordon

wekenav8r

My Feedback: (37)

BTW, for all of the posters who think you know better than the mods how to handle such a tough and thankless job - why not put your money where your mouth is and volunteer to help ? Tell Marc you'd like to sign up as a mod, and donate 15+ hours per week of your time to show us all how much better you can do that the current mods.

Gordon

I agree this could have been handled better by all involved Gordon. The moderators perform a great and thankless job in most cases. But at almost 120,000 strong, it's the members that make this site great. In a way, the moderators work for us. When we disagree with their decisions, we tell them so. It doesn't mean we have to be willing to step up and do their job in order to voice a complaint. To follow your logic, we either end up with 120,000 moderators, or 120,000 sheeples.
A big thanks to Marc and Ben and the others who managed to have the thread reinstated. And a big thanks to the moderators for the time they donate for all of us.

mvigod

We do like feedback from the members on different calls. The moderators as pointed out by gordon sometimes might act and then we reverse something after hashing it out. Our system makes it so nothing is ever "gone". Only 4 people can make things go away forever and that is "plane insane", me, "grnbrt" and my partner "mkranitz". So if any moderator closes, moves, locks or whatever and it was a wrong move it can be undone if need be. This isn't to say that there are lots of mistakes as the majority of decisions are very clear cut and are perfect. The tough ones are where the rules don't cover it well or where the post is in gray area. At these times a moderator can pull the post and we can decide what to do. If it is ok we can easily reinstate it with no more damage then it being offline for a bit. No harm no foul.

Being a mod is tough. You get heat from your peers for doing nothing more than working hard and doing best efforts to make the right decisions. These decisions are ALL ultimately to make RCU a better place for everyone. They are not to upset or damage anyone. Mods don't get paid for this thankless job. They do it because they are trying to make RCU a great place for fellow modelers. IT does stink when you just try your best and your peers fire bullets at you because you are doing nothing more than trying to help those who are actually firing the bullets!

I'm glad that this issue here was resolved. I did move the post back to the jets forum personally.

To those who are commercial posters and too small yet to take out premium ads here there are many things we created for such garage operators.

1) New product announcements - These are FREE. Send us a writeup and photos and we will include it in our product announcement pages. Once included your product is rotated on the MAIN RCU homepage PLUS rotated in our forums. All free!

2) Post in our product & announcement forum. You can announce any new product in this forum once and any noteworthy news you have. Free

3) Post your products for sale in the marketplace. For just a few dollars you can run an ad for 30 days. For a couple extra bucks you can feature it in your target forums and on the RCU homepage. Not free but certainly CHEAP!

4) Send us a product for review and inclusion in the RCU magazine. Your cost is only the cost of the item and you can write that off as marketing expense!


I'm just mentioning these because some claims were made that we dont' help out the small guy and I think the 4 items above show that this is actually not the case at all. These 4 things all have existed for a year now. On the old RCU numbers 2 & 3 were not possible even. This new "commercial" RCU as some have called it actually has MORE for the small guy then the old site had.

In closing..if you ever have a problem with a moderator or call they make then don't yell 1st amendment, don't yell for lawyers, don't post irrationally, don't get emotional and don't go nuts. Sit down and write to michael and me a rational, intelligent and well thought out email explaining what was done and why you feel it was in error. We will always review it and respond. The response may sometimes be what you had hoped for and other times it may not. If it is not we will explain why as best as we can and you can of course counter if you like. If I'm presented with a good enough argument or solution I'll change anything. On the internet nothing is ever written in stone.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Nah - my remarks were specifically directed to "all of the posters who think you know better than the mods how to handle such a tough and thankless job". There's a substantial difference between raising a complaint, and thinking that you could do a better job that the current mod's.

If I have a general contractor build a house for me, and when he's done I raise a complaint that he left a load of garbage lying in one of the cupboards, or that 3 of the outlets don't seem to be working, etc - am I saying that I know better than the GC how to build a house, or am I just saying "Hey - you missed something over here" ? Big difference.

Gordon