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"Cottage Industry" Jets

Old 02-13-2003, 10:45 AM
  #26  
SigKavalier
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Ha I wish it's my dads Harley. I ride a 95' Kawasaki Ninja and yes it is the most expensive vehicle I own. Even more than my truck.
Your right about the air start turbines etc. Yet I hardly see any for sale. I remember one of the first turbines I saw on the net the guy was starting it with a leaf blower. lol
I just think if they got down closer to the $1000 total power system price range more people would be burning kerosine and Jet-A. Although while older air start simple type turbines may become available there are none being made new. Or at least none I know of. I mean if there was just a simple air start turbine on the market in kit form for say $400 I'd be looking at twin turbine jets right now lol. The Wren is 600 pounds for just a turbine kit.
Maybe I just need to build my own turbine, but with a lack of a machine shop thats kinda impossible. Unless I made it out of wood. Now wouldn't that be neat! lol
Old 02-13-2003, 11:33 AM
  #27  
Brian B
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Default Very Talented Cats

Originally posted by woketman
his cat is doing the lay-ups in the bath !
A while ago we had a story about a cat that could fly turbines, and now there is one that can lay up glass! What next?
Old 02-13-2003, 12:08 PM
  #28  
SigKavalier
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Wow I feel kinda silly, but I did a search for air start r/c turbines. With no luck. Yet I did find some other usefull information. I must admit I didn't realize the price of the raw materials involved. Words like Aluminum make me think cheap lol. Also CNC machinery is very expensive, and outsourcing parts isn't cheap. Also read an article on where things have come in jets cost and technology wise. I'd have to say turbines are pretty cheap lol. Some of them more than others, but if I read one page right anything has to beat a $5000 propane turbine. I know some use it to start but just running one of it seems bad. Especially with the weight of a small propane tank.
Still pricey maybe I'll try one of those homebuilt turbines with the wood compressor. Only 5 lbs of thrust but I'm sure if I can get a brushed EDF to fly I could find something to fly with 5 lbs of thrust. lol
Old 02-13-2003, 12:54 PM
  #29  
MMallory
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Sig,

Don't forget the waiver process which further decreases the potential customer pool. Prices will always be high with such a limited audience.

Mark M.
Old 02-13-2003, 01:38 PM
  #30  
SigKavalier
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

The waiver is no big deal. You can't exactly take a .40 size plane and show up at a field and expect them to just let you start up aand fly. Somebody will be standing there watching. As far as my own places to fly I don't need anything. I'd get a waiver still as your supposed to have it, and I'd like to have somebody there to help me out for the start. All in all safety is common sense. Yet with my schedule there will be no events or fly-in's I'd be going to. It would involve me and the airport 2 minutes away, and the only other jets around would be DavidR's if he came out on the same day. He's offered to help me out too. Got to watch his Bobcat fly with his new turbine. Man that thing romped! He rolled like 50 feet, and went vertical for at least 200 feet probably more. I love that turbine sound!
Maybe I'm nuts and just that many people aren't interested in jets. I realise after some research that turbines, and cost has gotten better. It's just a matter of time untill I get one lol. Untill then I'm going to make jet noises while my F-18 screams around on batteries lol. Maybe rub some jet-A on it to get the smell right lol.
I still think price scares of more people than anything though but I don't think it can really be helped. Like when DavidR told me about crashing his $10,000 F-4. Had it been me I would have had a heart attack right there. I'm thinking a Wren 54, and a Super Reaper to start with. After watching his Bobcat fly I could feel pretty safe with an expensive sport jet. I think the scale one's are awesome but have quirky flight characteristics which make it more challenging and costly.
i'm off topic now so I'll stop. lol
Old 02-13-2003, 02:01 PM
  #31  
MMallory
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Sig,

I wasn't referring to new pilots (ala .40 sized). I personally know many excellent giant scale pilots who already spend many thousands on airplane who don't want to be bothered going through the waiver process. These are safe qualified pilots who COULD pass the required maneuvers without incident.

My intent was only to point out another kink in the potential market for those selling turbines. I am and will always be a strong advocate for safety.

Mark M.
Old 02-14-2003, 12:54 AM
  #32  
hapyjac2
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Default Cottage industry Jets.

Hate to bring the subject back to the original thoughts.

But back to cottage industry Jets.

There are some good and some bad. Like RPMJet's. Rick Palumbo, he has taken many payments for a jet kit he was to produce. As he stated in a previous post on this thread, how patient everyone is. Well how long should it take. Five months and no word. He can't be found. He offered a refund but has anyone received a kit? or any money returned? Has anyone even heard from this guy in the last couple of months?.
Just wondering how many he stiffed?
I know of three. Are there any more? :drowning:

Just curious.
Old 02-14-2003, 01:06 AM
  #33  
B1Driver
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Thats really too bad about RPM Jets, It REALLY looked like an AWSOME jet and I would of bought one if he hadnt of gone into hiding. He's got a phone number here...have you tried it?

Luis
Old 02-14-2003, 01:17 AM
  #34  
Dustflyer
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Default Cottage industry

Easytiger,

Getting back to your original post, I agree with you 100%. There was a reason; however, that people were willing to wait and put up with a cottage industry atmosphere. Jets were new, they were, in fact, still kind of experimental.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a guy like me, spending thirty some odd years dreaming about miniature turbines instead of doing something worthwhile with my life, and then lo and behold someone actually comes out with nothing less than a real, live, working turbine for model airplanes!

Would I be willing to put up with just about anything to get my hands on one? You better believe it! People put up with whatever they had to to get those turbines in their airplanes and get rid of those ducted fans.

Like I said in my original, admittedly somewhat divergent post, things change. Technology improves, demand increases, people want more for less. That's all a good thing, the result of which is a new crop of super reliable turbines.

Cottage industry? Yes. That was then. But now is now, and wow, what a great time it is for model jet aviation!
Old 02-14-2003, 01:54 AM
  #35  
Kevin Greene
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

No air start turbines curently being made?!?!? Have you guys not heard of AMT??? These guys pioneered mixing oil in the fuel and are extremely reliable. AMT is now making both electric and air start turbines. I start my AMT Mercury with a 4 gallon pancake compressor tank at 125 psi---No scuba tanks here!!! (AMT Eliminator)

Kevin
Old 02-14-2003, 02:08 AM
  #36  
EASYTIGER
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Add ME to the RPM jets list. I would have appreciated at least a response from him. Funny, he called me up when he first talked about kitting it, and he was very nervous about taking orders for a kit that was still an unflown prototype. I told him that I, at least, knew what I was getting into, but that he was very right to be nervous about taking orders from anybody who was not fully cognizant of what they were getting into. Seemed to be a straight shooting guy. If he had at least responded to an email, I would feel better about it.
I ran into another guy on ebay a few weeks ago, a former manufacturer who went under, who had beat me for a kit. He sent some unuseable parts that were supposed to be a "kit", and had the longest string of excuses, from lead poisoning to divorce to blowing himself up while lighting the boiler in the basement. When I bumped into him on ebay, he pretended to not remember a thing. Funny, I have a pretty good memory whenever I owe somebody money, myself. This guy was and still is a charachter...the reason I bumped into him is because I bid on some saddle tanks Tony F was selling, and this yinyang emails me offering to sell me a set for less. While the auction was running. Anyway...
Yes, I think the market has matured. I think people can, do, and should expect to get their entire money's worth nowadays from cottage industry types. There is way too much money at stake to tolerate anything less...
Old 02-14-2003, 03:13 AM
  #37  
SigKavalier
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Sorry I miss typed what I meant. It was a response to someone elses statement about the less hi-tech air starting turbines. I.E. for me lower priced as there's no $130 electric starter kit. I've seen the AMT turbines, and they look nice. However unless the page with prices I saw was in australian dollars or something an electric start Wren is cheaper.
I was just saying short of waiting for a low priced used turbine to pop-up the Wren is about the cheapest entry into turbines and at $1700 roughly for the whole ready to run turbine it's quite steep for folks like me. Most used turbines I've seen for sale aren't much less than the new one's either.
They all seem to be the latest, and greatest. When a slighly older less effecient design for less $$$ being produced new would open things up IMHO. For example a DF engine/fan/pipe may run you $500 new, but a turbine capable of powering the same model new will run you over 3 times that much. The difference is a performance gain although a DF doing 150mph is fast enough, and the other difference is the sound of a real turbine.
With IC engines you have your standard engines, and then your top of the line hi dollar engines. The same with electrics. But with turbines all the new production turbines are top of the line unless you find and older used one.
If a manufacturer were to produce a older style turbine much like the ones people build themselves. In a ready to run package for say $1000 new I think it would open a lot of doors for new modellers looking to get in.
Old 02-14-2003, 03:49 AM
  #38  
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

cottage industry....

what happened to Flighteck formerly Cressline ???

they had a line of D/F and Canards back in 96

the Canards have been picked up by Fusco.
Old 02-14-2003, 04:00 AM
  #39  
Woketman
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Sig, you missed an important turbine consideration over DF, reliabilty!
Old 02-14-2003, 05:26 AM
  #40  
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

Hi SigKavalier, I just saw Wolfeee at the club meeting the other night. He has the WREN MW54 kit on sale for $1600.00 as an introduction now that he is the distributor. From what I have heard and read it is a great little engine and it is not at all hard to assemble.That looks like a pretty good price to me. Scott
Old 02-14-2003, 06:40 AM
  #41  
SigKavalier
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

No doubt by comparison the Wren is a great price for a turbine. I just wonder why there are no low cost older style turbines being produced. I also understand though that it's actually easier to manufacture a 20+lbs thrust turbine than a 12lb turbine.
I think it was the JDE 67 or something like that I saw stuffed in a JHH Mirage. Seems like it would be a cheap to produce moderately performing turbine that would be a great entry level if the cost was right. The tolerances in it aren't anywhere near the new turbines.
Old 02-14-2003, 06:51 AM
  #42  
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

I think producing an old style turbine costs just as much as making the new one.

That would be like saying why doesn't someone make a "new" 1965 mustang and sell it for 3500 dollars.

There are some very cheap used turbines out there. Usually the manufacturers went out of business.

The words "cheap" and "turbine" don't really seem to go together. Even if one got down to $1000, the person who paid that will expect the same level of service that everyone is getting these days. They want someone on the phone, the internet etc to fix problems. and they will still have to be hooked up and troubleshot the same as the others.
Old 02-14-2003, 07:20 AM
  #43  
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Default "Old" Vs. "New"

Hi Sig

What do you mean by older style? Turbomin, Sophia, JPX? These are heavy inefficient and no longer made.

Manufacturing a 12lb versus a 25 lb turbine is slightly more difficult. The main difference is the cost of the materials. Labour to machine and assemble either one is about the same.
Like Matt said, "cheap" and "turbine" don't go together. If you want a cheap turbine, expect no warranty, minimal customer service and little if any support. If your looking for a turbine in the $1000 range, that's what your going to get, IF you can find one!

Regardless of thrust or size or age, the tolerances all these engines operate at are very tight. That is the last place you want to shave cost. Unless you want to change bearings a couple of times a year.

Ed
Old 02-14-2003, 07:59 AM
  #44  
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

The Schreckling FD3 64 was more to my thinking. I had to go look up it's name. It's what I saw stuffed into the small mirage. I've heard of them used in other small jets. It's not the latest and greatest but it is a kero burning turbine thats suitable for smaller jets. Your not going to get a 1 to 1 thrust out of a model with it.
Old 02-14-2003, 09:49 AM
  #45  
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Default "Cottage Industry" Jets

I have to disagree with ed about the sophia, this "was" a beautifully engineered highly efficient 19 lb engine with a first class ecu (jetcat) it's problems were centered around the rear bearing, ultimately though the thing that finally killed it off was the appalling service.
M
Old 02-14-2003, 04:10 PM
  #46  
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Default Sophia

Hi Mick

I stand corrected.

Ed

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