"Cottage Industry" Jets
08-25-2002, 02:25 PM
#1
"Cottage Industry" Jets
After my own experiences with RAM, and my friends' dealings with Spiderjets, CAI, etc., I think the market has changed a lot in the jet world.
Five years ago, people were very tolerant of waiting three months for something to arrive, or engines that needed a lot of tweaking to run...everything was pretty much run by one man band cottage industry types, most of whom did not do this for a living, and only answered the phone or shipped your engine or whatever after all their other "real world" chores of day job and family were finished.
And flyers were tolerant of it, because everything was new and experimental, and there were few choices.
Nowadays, though, it seems both the pilots and the business have changed. People now expect their stuff to actually WORK, not be an experiment, and people actually want their money's worth.
The business seems to have matured a lot.
Your thoughts?
Five years ago, people were very tolerant of waiting three months for something to arrive, or engines that needed a lot of tweaking to run...everything was pretty much run by one man band cottage industry types, most of whom did not do this for a living, and only answered the phone or shipped your engine or whatever after all their other "real world" chores of day job and family were finished.
And flyers were tolerant of it, because everything was new and experimental, and there were few choices.
Nowadays, though, it seems both the pilots and the business have changed. People now expect their stuff to actually WORK, not be an experiment, and people actually want their money's worth.
The business seems to have matured a lot.
Your thoughts?
08-25-2002, 05:06 PM
#2
musings
Five years ago you were paying $300 to $500 for a complete kit, now $1,000 seems the norm.
You also knew when you called that you were dealing with a cottage shop, as they were up front with you. Now with slick advertising and a good web design, you 'feel' like you are dealing with something more substantial than you really are. Proprietors are less likely to let on that they are working out of their garage.
Lastly, and the biggest item, I think the 'old' guys are a lot more tolerant of cottage shops and the 'buyer' engineering and patience required. there are many guys used to arf's or highly prefab'd gear that think everything should be that way.
Back then when someone would let on that they were 'working' on a new kit or design, you knew it would be a year or longer to it's release, if they ever got around to it. Now every month after a rumour there are emails and post saying "where is it? are they out of business".
it is quite a bit different now.
You also knew when you called that you were dealing with a cottage shop, as they were up front with you. Now with slick advertising and a good web design, you 'feel' like you are dealing with something more substantial than you really are. Proprietors are less likely to let on that they are working out of their garage.
Lastly, and the biggest item, I think the 'old' guys are a lot more tolerant of cottage shops and the 'buyer' engineering and patience required. there are many guys used to arf's or highly prefab'd gear that think everything should be that way.
Back then when someone would let on that they were 'working' on a new kit or design, you knew it would be a year or longer to it's release, if they ever got around to it. Now every month after a rumour there are emails and post saying "where is it? are they out of business".
it is quite a bit different now.
08-25-2002, 07:21 PM
#3
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Changes
I don't think things have changed much, if at all. There are still turbines that don't work, kit manufacturers disappearing, shipment delays, etc. Seems to me it is same old, same old......
And why should it not be this way? We "jet guys" are a tiny market that will never support mass production of kits, engines, or anything else that is exclusive to jets. So we better get used to the status quo.
And why should it not be this way? We "jet guys" are a tiny market that will never support mass production of kits, engines, or anything else that is exclusive to jets. So we better get used to the status quo.
08-25-2002, 09:34 PM
#4
"Cottage Industry" Jets
It seems to me that the biggest problem is that people send in cash (figuratively) and are promised something and do not receive it. The larger manufacturers will generally not do this. The problem is that are only a few "large" manufacturers/dealers in the jet arena. It seems like it only gets really upsetting when people take your money and leave you with nothing but unanswered questions.
Bob
Bob
10-11-2002, 06:10 PM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
Hi EASYTIGER IM RSJETS ONE OF THE COTTAGE INDUSTRYS YOU ARE ON ABOUT , WE ARE TRYING TO PROVIDE LOW COST KITS WITH QUALITY IM MIND AND NOT MAKING THE CUSTOMER WAIT FOR EVER AND A DAY , I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT HOW IT USE TO BE BUT HOPEFULLY THINGS ARE CHANGING . IN ENGLAND WE DONT LIKE TO WAIT TO LONG FOR THINGS THATS WHY WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE A GOOD DILIVERY TIME , GOOD PRICE AND EXCELLENT QUALITY .
HOPE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS
CHEERS RSJETS
HOPE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS
CHEERS RSJETS
10-11-2002, 08:47 PM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
RSJETS,
It's been my experience over the last 20 years that, with the exception, perhaps, of Fanjets (no longer in business) the general standard of 'cottage industry' jet kits in England has been poor...I don't suppose that's unreasonable given the considerable resources required to produce good quality products for a very small market, and the prices, in general, reflected that.
Don't know how long you've been in business but I can't recall any kit mfr in England called RSJETS (perhaps this isn't your company name) - I'm interested to know what products you're providing...and prices.
TIA,
Dick
It's been my experience over the last 20 years that, with the exception, perhaps, of Fanjets (no longer in business) the general standard of 'cottage industry' jet kits in England has been poor...I don't suppose that's unreasonable given the considerable resources required to produce good quality products for a very small market, and the prices, in general, reflected that.
Don't know how long you've been in business but I can't recall any kit mfr in England called RSJETS (perhaps this isn't your company name) - I'm interested to know what products you're providing...and prices.
TIA,
Dick
10-12-2002, 06:14 PM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
RSJETS ARE A NEW COMPANY WE ARE A FATHER AND SON COMPANY WHO HAVE BEEN MODELING FOR ABOUT 27 YEARS WE USE TO BUILD STANDERED AIRCRAFT SUCH AS LOW WING TRAINERS AND JET LIKE SPORTS MODELS WE WERE UNDER THE NAME OF CRUSADER MODLES AND USE TO PRODUCE THE RENAGADE, COOL DUDE , SIDEWINDER AND AN A7 CORSAIR WHICH WAS PREVIEWED BY SIMON DELAINEY OF WHICH HE THOUGHT WAS A VERY GOOD JET TRAINER .
OUR KIT RANGE ARE
F16 MIG 15 TURBINE TRAINER AND A FOLLAND GNAT AND A7 CORSAIR TO FOLLOW LATER .
KIT PRICES ARE £350.00 +P+P
OUR KIT RANGE ARE
F16 MIG 15 TURBINE TRAINER AND A FOLLAND GNAT AND A7 CORSAIR TO FOLLOW LATER .
KIT PRICES ARE £350.00 +P+P
11-20-2002, 12:20 AM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
Easytiger, you are right about the cottage industries. There is a compromise any way you cut it. The bigger, full time staff outfits
wont usually make that obscure, small or huge, weird plane or product because they HAVE to be able to sell enough of them or they will take a beating. And not to mention that it is open to the bigger companies to have their products possibly made overseas. It all comes down to volume of sales.
When I got my big Yellow AC Sukhoi, it is a stunning kit and dirt cheap, as are alot of the new gen ARF's. If they were made in the US, I would imagine triple even quadruple the MSRP would not be unreasonable.
I myself am a one man band like most of the garage style outfits are, and I will never be able to have that super fast turnout, or shipping etc. I cant stand by the phone all day {but I certianly will do everything I can to help,when I can} I dont have the time to build 10 or even 5 models and sit on them till they sell. I have to have an order, Then I will build you your model.
I am however allowed to build that unique, off the wall stuff that a big company{relatively} would never touch. I really dont care if they sell or not, they dont HAVE to sell, but it is nice to cover your costs and make a little change on the side! and I myself enjoy the thought that someone else is enjoying my model.
When a customer sends me a check for a model, I look at it like I am being "comissioned" to build you that model: What color you want? sure I can add this or change that, and all of that little personalized stuff. not sell you a model off a shelf like a hobby shop does.
I have been fortunate that almost all of the people that I have done business with were very patient and understanding of these facts.
Just my thoughts from a small cottage shop guy. the models I make are: small jet model {RPMjet}, a four foot long Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton model, an 82" long WWII U-boat, a 11" long Velociraptor skeleton model and a bunch of other uncompleted off the wall stuff.
Rick
wont usually make that obscure, small or huge, weird plane or product because they HAVE to be able to sell enough of them or they will take a beating. And not to mention that it is open to the bigger companies to have their products possibly made overseas. It all comes down to volume of sales.
When I got my big Yellow AC Sukhoi, it is a stunning kit and dirt cheap, as are alot of the new gen ARF's. If they were made in the US, I would imagine triple even quadruple the MSRP would not be unreasonable.
I myself am a one man band like most of the garage style outfits are, and I will never be able to have that super fast turnout, or shipping etc. I cant stand by the phone all day {but I certianly will do everything I can to help,when I can} I dont have the time to build 10 or even 5 models and sit on them till they sell. I have to have an order, Then I will build you your model.
I am however allowed to build that unique, off the wall stuff that a big company{relatively} would never touch. I really dont care if they sell or not, they dont HAVE to sell, but it is nice to cover your costs and make a little change on the side! and I myself enjoy the thought that someone else is enjoying my model.
When a customer sends me a check for a model, I look at it like I am being "comissioned" to build you that model: What color you want? sure I can add this or change that, and all of that little personalized stuff. not sell you a model off a shelf like a hobby shop does.
I have been fortunate that almost all of the people that I have done business with were very patient and understanding of these facts.
Just my thoughts from a small cottage shop guy. the models I make are: small jet model {RPMjet}, a four foot long Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton model, an 82" long WWII U-boat, a 11" long Velociraptor skeleton model and a bunch of other uncompleted off the wall stuff.
Rick
02-13-2003, 12:10 AM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
Would you guys rather deal with a cottage shop, one that is up front with you, good customer service, and none of the slick marketing, but may have a little longer lead time to get kits and parts and may be a little more expensive, OR deal with a larger shop, one that can deliver parts and kits quickly at a little lower cost, but may have poor customer support/service and quality?
I guess there's a tradeoff in dealing with one or thr other.
RA
I guess there's a tradeoff in dealing with one or thr other.
RA
02-13-2003, 01:10 AM
#15
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
But I think that one of his points was that many times, you do not know. I personally know of at least one kit shop that will tell you that the "West facility is slowing production, but perhaps your shipment is stuck in the shipping department". When in reality, his cat is doing the lay-ups in the bath tub and the shipping department is the kitchen table in his apartment!
02-13-2003, 01:56 AM
#16
Things
One thing never changes, one thing you can count on... things change.
In my opinion model aviation is better now than it has ever been, especially in model jets.
Turbines work and work well. JetCat, Simjet, PST, JDE/Wren, AMT, ARTES, these are first rate, reliable turbines with excellent ECU's that you can count on.
There are terrific new entry level jet models like the FACET and Super Reaper, Boomerang and AV8R. These models are simple, inexpensive, easy to build and easy to fly
Radios are better than ever. Whether you buy JR or Futaba you can count on a first rate, reliable piece of equipment.
Yes, I believe we are in the golden age of RC. When I was a boy RC was either some screwball "galloping ghost" or a box with toggle switches that would somehow "blip" an airplane with an unreliable, sputtering excuse for a motor around the sky.
I was seventeen years old when I had scrimped and saved and somehow managed to put together 300 bucks to buy a Kraft knockoff called a PCS that I stuffed into a Lanier Caprice ARF powered by a piece of junk called a Merco 60. It was a minor miracle getting that thing up and down.
Now we can do 400' loops with turbine powered jets, the crackling roar of a jet engine echoing through the countryside. It is a thrill we could only imagine, only dream about 30 years ago.
The good old days. Guess what... we are there.
In my opinion model aviation is better now than it has ever been, especially in model jets.
Turbines work and work well. JetCat, Simjet, PST, JDE/Wren, AMT, ARTES, these are first rate, reliable turbines with excellent ECU's that you can count on.
There are terrific new entry level jet models like the FACET and Super Reaper, Boomerang and AV8R. These models are simple, inexpensive, easy to build and easy to fly
Radios are better than ever. Whether you buy JR or Futaba you can count on a first rate, reliable piece of equipment.
Yes, I believe we are in the golden age of RC. When I was a boy RC was either some screwball "galloping ghost" or a box with toggle switches that would somehow "blip" an airplane with an unreliable, sputtering excuse for a motor around the sky.
I was seventeen years old when I had scrimped and saved and somehow managed to put together 300 bucks to buy a Kraft knockoff called a PCS that I stuffed into a Lanier Caprice ARF powered by a piece of junk called a Merco 60. It was a minor miracle getting that thing up and down.
Now we can do 400' loops with turbine powered jets, the crackling roar of a jet engine echoing through the countryside. It is a thrill we could only imagine, only dream about 30 years ago.
The good old days. Guess what... we are there.
02-13-2003, 02:06 AM
#17
"Cottage Industry" Jets
Have to agree with you, 100%. This IS the Golden Age, right now.
But that has nothing to do with cottage kits!
I LIKE cottage industry stuff. I don't WANT to fly what everybody else has, and I like stuff with charachter and a personal touch.
But...I have been taken twice by cottage industry jet manufacturers. Once, recently, right here off of RCU. Hey, it DOES kind of suck.
And when it comes to TURBINES...well...I'm sticking to well-established brands, I just can't afford to get burned for that much. More power to the guys who can take a chance on the engine side.
But that has nothing to do with cottage kits!
I LIKE cottage industry stuff. I don't WANT to fly what everybody else has, and I like stuff with charachter and a personal touch.
But...I have been taken twice by cottage industry jet manufacturers. Once, recently, right here off of RCU. Hey, it DOES kind of suck.
And when it comes to TURBINES...well...I'm sticking to well-established brands, I just can't afford to get burned for that much. More power to the guys who can take a chance on the engine side.
02-13-2003, 02:26 AM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
One Cottage industry guy that I have high praise for, although he does not make a jet kit yet (he might one day) is Bruce Tharpe. He answers phones and emails, cuts the wood, packages, ships, does the trade shows, and finds some time to work on the next model. Customer service is A-1, and his kits are a dream to build, and fly just as nice. He sets the standard I think we would like everyone to attain. No, I don't work for him, I'm not a relative, but I am a happy customer.... 
02-13-2003, 03:02 AM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
Well I don't own a turbine jet yet, but I have some thoughts on the industry. Seems no matter what the kit's cost your going to have close to or over 2 grand in the engine. I've seen retracts that cost in the $600+ range, and some kit prices although they are nice kits make my eye's want to pop out of my head.
Basically it's like a money wall in the hobby to me. As much as I would love to have one it seems to get any of them airborne it costs more than my truck. I wouldn't mind waiting 3 months for a $500 turbine that I had to tinker with to get running. Thats a viable option for me as I have lots of time to tinker. On the other hand $3000 for a perfectly running turbine package is not at all an option. Seems that Wren turbines are close to a reasonable price for just the turbine. Then the other stuff raises the price up to $1700 total. I'm not saying they should be cheap. It's a tight tolerance turbine, and not easy to manufacture.
Also other than kits like the Super Reaper I don't see any other built up semi-scale or scale kits. Fiberglass kits are very expensive, but some instructions, and some laser cut wood is much more economical. Seems things in this hobby are priced by what they are, and not cost+profit margin. Thats not all but most manufacturers. I know research, and development isn't cheap too. Yet no offense to anyone I'd like to go to a turbine/jet kit manufacturers office. I doubt there's engineers sitting in little cubicles, and a marketing division. Then there's just my opinion on how buisness should be done. It's just an opinion mind you though.
An example a top of the line Kawasaki Ninja thats the oppitimy of performance, and technology costs you $10,000. Maybe $11,000.
Yet then there's Harley Davidson who intentionally produces less than the demand, and jacks their prices up for an inferior product. Please no Harley arguments. There's a $25,000 one sitting in the carport at this very moment that may or may not crank, and 2 cheap jap bikes that will crank on the first try.
My point being is that .40 size engines are cheaper because they sell lots of them. Turbines are expensive because they don't sell lots of them. Yet you can't sell a lot of anything at a $3000 price tag for something thats a sunday hobby, and can at the blink of an eye become a crunched piece of metal at the bottom of a 4 foot hole. Just my thought but if the price of turbines dropped the jet section of the hobby would double in size. Because right now for 95% of the hobby population the jet prices do not pass the burn test. You know you take all the money it would cost, and walk out back. If you cannot set it on fire, and not blink an eye when the money burns then it's too much.
Everything I fly if I crash it doesn't bother me because it's burned money. I knew it when I got it that it would very likely happen, and if $300 goes boom I can shrug it off. Givin I'm on the low end of the economy, and probably have no buisness in the jets forum. I'm still saving for one because they're that cool, but I know when it goes boom thats the end. I won't save another year to burn the money a second time. If you can thats great, but I'm saying thats why the jet area of the hobby is so small, and everything thats a turbine or designed for turbines costs out the waazoo.
Basically it's like a money wall in the hobby to me. As much as I would love to have one it seems to get any of them airborne it costs more than my truck. I wouldn't mind waiting 3 months for a $500 turbine that I had to tinker with to get running. Thats a viable option for me as I have lots of time to tinker. On the other hand $3000 for a perfectly running turbine package is not at all an option. Seems that Wren turbines are close to a reasonable price for just the turbine. Then the other stuff raises the price up to $1700 total. I'm not saying they should be cheap. It's a tight tolerance turbine, and not easy to manufacture.
Also other than kits like the Super Reaper I don't see any other built up semi-scale or scale kits. Fiberglass kits are very expensive, but some instructions, and some laser cut wood is much more economical. Seems things in this hobby are priced by what they are, and not cost+profit margin. Thats not all but most manufacturers. I know research, and development isn't cheap too. Yet no offense to anyone I'd like to go to a turbine/jet kit manufacturers office. I doubt there's engineers sitting in little cubicles, and a marketing division. Then there's just my opinion on how buisness should be done. It's just an opinion mind you though.
An example a top of the line Kawasaki Ninja thats the oppitimy of performance, and technology costs you $10,000. Maybe $11,000.
Yet then there's Harley Davidson who intentionally produces less than the demand, and jacks their prices up for an inferior product. Please no Harley arguments. There's a $25,000 one sitting in the carport at this very moment that may or may not crank, and 2 cheap jap bikes that will crank on the first try.
My point being is that .40 size engines are cheaper because they sell lots of them. Turbines are expensive because they don't sell lots of them. Yet you can't sell a lot of anything at a $3000 price tag for something thats a sunday hobby, and can at the blink of an eye become a crunched piece of metal at the bottom of a 4 foot hole. Just my thought but if the price of turbines dropped the jet section of the hobby would double in size. Because right now for 95% of the hobby population the jet prices do not pass the burn test. You know you take all the money it would cost, and walk out back. If you cannot set it on fire, and not blink an eye when the money burns then it's too much.
Everything I fly if I crash it doesn't bother me because it's burned money. I knew it when I got it that it would very likely happen, and if $300 goes boom I can shrug it off. Givin I'm on the low end of the economy, and probably have no buisness in the jets forum. I'm still saving for one because they're that cool, but I know when it goes boom thats the end. I won't save another year to burn the money a second time. If you can thats great, but I'm saying thats why the jet area of the hobby is so small, and everything thats a turbine or designed for turbines costs out the waazoo.
02-13-2003, 03:02 AM
#21
"Cottage Industry" Jets
Originally posted by woketman
But I think that one of his points was that many times, you do not know. I personally know of at least one kit shop that will tell you that the "West facility is slowing production, but perhaps your shipment is stuck in the shipping department". When in reality, his cat is doing the lay-ups in the bath tub and the shipping department is the kitchen table in his apartment!
But I think that one of his points was that many times, you do not know. I personally know of at least one kit shop that will tell you that the "West facility is slowing production, but perhaps your shipment is stuck in the shipping department". When in reality, his cat is doing the lay-ups in the bath tub and the shipping department is the kitchen table in his apartment!
02-13-2003, 05:19 AM
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"Cottage Industry" Jets
I'm on the low end of the economy
The 12lb turbine market looks like it may be very competitive, and may see some volume/price moves that favor the consumer. This is just a guess based on the number of turbines entering the market right now, and the support we are seeing for them.
At these smaller sizes, airframes, servos, landing gear etc start getting a lot more economical....especially if you buy as you go. Another option may be consider a used, or factory reconditioned turbine. The air start turbines are sure to be a bargain relative to the shiny new ones...
Just some thoughts ......
