Jet Legend?
10-05-2005, 02:25 PM
#26
RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: AirPac Models
If you or anyone else sells these planes in the US, you may have some problems here, since stealing copyrights are against the law here.
If you or anyone else sells these planes in the US, you may have some problems here, since stealing copyrights are against the law here.
Even if SM had licensed the F-15 design, whose copyright is owned by Boeing, they do not have standing to sue under US copyright laws because SM is not the copyright holder, Boeing is and only Boeing can sue for copyright infringement.
Unless SM licensed the designs from Boeing, then they are as guilty of copyright infringement as those being accused on this thread. Copyright law governing shapes makes no distinction about size. A shape is a shape is a shape.
ORIGINAL: jetflyer
In copyright law, a derivative work is an artistic creation that includes aspects of work previously created and protected.
In copyright law, a derivative work is an artistic creation that includes aspects of work previously created and protected.
Since Boeing is the copyright holder for the F-15, only Boeing may sue for copyright infringement. The licensee cannot sue for infringement if someone copies their derivative because they are not the copyright holder. Along those same lines, if the manufacturer of the derivative did not license the design from the copyright holder, then they have even less standing to sue for infringement because they are neither the copyright holder, nor are they licensed to produce a derivative.
So, even if JetLegend copied SM's models, SM cannot sue JetLegend because they are not the copyright holder. And as I wrote above, if SM didn't license their derivative from Boeing, then they too, are guilty of copyright infringement.
Dan
10-05-2005, 03:59 PM
#28
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RE: Jet Legend?
So then,
It's not specifically stated, but is a "derivative work" of a coppyrighted item a violation of copyright law?
The example of boat hulls was brought up and bass boat hulls were/are famous for this copying and yet it continues. This leads me to think that there's then a legal difference between a "trivial change" and a "derivative work", the latter being a legal item to produce and the former illegal. This make sense?
As far as the copy of the models - I think the copiers will have more to fear from Boeing and Northrup/Grumman suing as they are over the Revele plastic models and liscensing rights.
Like him or not, BVM's got it right - he's developed the following such that if a splash/copy/derivative work were made of his stuff, it would not affect his sales substantially due to the loyal following. Heck they even maybe lynched out of existence by that following. No bash here - I like and own his stuff - AND live in Texas. Been a long time since we had a cow rustler inthese parts... Didn't see a whole lot of looting during hurricane Rita either. Got to love a state that gives a lawful citizen the "obligation" to help defend his neighborhood during a time of crises...
It's not specifically stated, but is a "derivative work" of a coppyrighted item a violation of copyright law?
The example of boat hulls was brought up and bass boat hulls were/are famous for this copying and yet it continues. This leads me to think that there's then a legal difference between a "trivial change" and a "derivative work", the latter being a legal item to produce and the former illegal. This make sense?
As far as the copy of the models - I think the copiers will have more to fear from Boeing and Northrup/Grumman suing as they are over the Revele plastic models and liscensing rights.
Like him or not, BVM's got it right - he's developed the following such that if a splash/copy/derivative work were made of his stuff, it would not affect his sales substantially due to the loyal following. Heck they even maybe lynched out of existence by that following. No bash here - I like and own his stuff - AND live in Texas. Been a long time since we had a cow rustler inthese parts... Didn't see a whole lot of looting during hurricane Rita either. Got to love a state that gives a lawful citizen the "obligation" to help defend his neighborhood during a time of crises...
10-05-2005, 04:35 PM
#29
RE: Jet Legend?
Jetflyer,
Yes, as a computer programmer, I've been involved with IP and copyrights for a long time. When I started producing kits, I checked into licensing the designs from L/M and Boeing and that's what led me down the path to understanding copyrights and shapes.
A derivative is not in violation of the copyright if it is licensed by the copyright holder. Yes, the boat hulls copying is what brought about the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1997. (See: [link=http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/]Registration of Vessel Hull Designs[/link])
Yes, what you write makes sense, but that's not really how it works. A derivative work is only copyrightable if it contains enough changes to be considered a 'new work'. (See: [link=http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf]Copyright Registration for Derivative Works[/link])
Even so, the maker of the derivative can only copyright that portion that is his original work. So, a model maker cannot copyright the shape of an F-15 no matter what the size because the copyright for that shape is held by another, in this case, Boeing. The derivative maker could sue if someone copied their hatch designs, or their landing gear mounts, but that's about it. Anything that describes the shape belongs to Boeing.
Yes, you're right. Boeing and L/M are the ones who're going after modeling companies, but they're suing over trademarks and product liability issues and not really interested in pursuing shapes, at least for the time being.
Actually, there was a company that tried selling splashed copies of the BobCat and the Bandit and BV threatened a lawsuit over it, which caused the violators to stop. But, he could only sue them because he was the copyright holder of those designs. He could not sue anyone who copies his scale models because he doesn't hold the copyrights to them.
Yes, as a computer programmer, I've been involved with IP and copyrights for a long time. When I started producing kits, I checked into licensing the designs from L/M and Boeing and that's what led me down the path to understanding copyrights and shapes.
ORIGINAL: ChuckC
It's not specifically stated, but is a "derivative work" of a coppyrighted item a violation of copyright law?
The example of boat hulls was brought up and bass boat hulls were/are famous for this copying and yet it continues. This leads me to think that there's then a legal difference between a "trivial change" and a "derivative work", the latter being a legal item to produce and the former illegal. This make sense?
As far as the copy of the models - I think the copiers will have more to fear from Boeing and Northrup/Grumman suing as they are over the Revele plastic models and liscensing rights.
Like him or not, BVM's got it right - he's developed the following such that if a splash/copy/derivative work were made of his stuff, it would not affect his sales substantially due to the loyal following. Heck they even maybe lynched out of existence by that following.
It's not specifically stated, but is a "derivative work" of a coppyrighted item a violation of copyright law?
The example of boat hulls was brought up and bass boat hulls were/are famous for this copying and yet it continues. This leads me to think that there's then a legal difference between a "trivial change" and a "derivative work", the latter being a legal item to produce and the former illegal. This make sense?
As far as the copy of the models - I think the copiers will have more to fear from Boeing and Northrup/Grumman suing as they are over the Revele plastic models and liscensing rights.
Like him or not, BVM's got it right - he's developed the following such that if a splash/copy/derivative work were made of his stuff, it would not affect his sales substantially due to the loyal following. Heck they even maybe lynched out of existence by that following.
Yes, what you write makes sense, but that's not really how it works. A derivative work is only copyrightable if it contains enough changes to be considered a 'new work'. (See: [link=http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf]Copyright Registration for Derivative Works[/link])
Even so, the maker of the derivative can only copyright that portion that is his original work. So, a model maker cannot copyright the shape of an F-15 no matter what the size because the copyright for that shape is held by another, in this case, Boeing. The derivative maker could sue if someone copied their hatch designs, or their landing gear mounts, but that's about it. Anything that describes the shape belongs to Boeing.
Yes, you're right. Boeing and L/M are the ones who're going after modeling companies, but they're suing over trademarks and product liability issues and not really interested in pursuing shapes, at least for the time being.
Actually, there was a company that tried selling splashed copies of the BobCat and the Bandit and BV threatened a lawsuit over it, which caused the violators to stop. But, he could only sue them because he was the copyright holder of those designs. He could not sue anyone who copies his scale models because he doesn't hold the copyrights to them.
10-05-2005, 05:35 PM
#31
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RE: Jet Legend?
Prove it...
You don't know the TRUE history between these two companies - only what has been posted here and then only from one side.
I will sit on the fence and not judge anyone until all the facts are realised.
What happened to the adage 'innocent until proven guilty'?
If it were down to some individuals, Jetlegend would be hung from the nearest tree without the chance to defend themselves.
JetLegend may have a perfectly legal right to produce these kits - and if they have well good for them, competition is good for the consumer. If they haven't the right and it is proven in a court of law then production should stop immediately.
The truth will out - I think that's how it goes anyway
Just my opinion...
You don't know the TRUE history between these two companies - only what has been posted here and then only from one side.
I will sit on the fence and not judge anyone until all the facts are realised.
What happened to the adage 'innocent until proven guilty'?
If it were down to some individuals, Jetlegend would be hung from the nearest tree without the chance to defend themselves.
JetLegend may have a perfectly legal right to produce these kits - and if they have well good for them, competition is good for the consumer. If they haven't the right and it is proven in a court of law then production should stop immediately.
The truth will out - I think that's how it goes anyway
Just my opinion...
10-05-2005, 05:58 PM
#32
RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: Shok
Didn't someone on here say the skymaster f-15 was a splash of an Avonds kit once?
Are they that close? I never really paid attention.
Didn't someone on here say the skymaster f-15 was a splash of an Avonds kit once?
Are they that close? I never really paid attention.
10-06-2005, 07:50 AM
#35
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: DanSavage
I don't know. I did a search and found several references to the Mach 2.2 Composites F-15 being a splash of the Byron kit, but that's all I could find on the subject of F-15s and splashes.
ORIGINAL: Shok
Didn't someone on here say the skymaster f-15 was a splash of an Avonds kit once?
Are they that close? I never really paid attention.
Didn't someone on here say the skymaster f-15 was a splash of an Avonds kit once?
Are they that close? I never really paid attention.
But another thing is this:
The Skymaster one has all composite wings and tails, it's certainly different enough, in my opinion, to not really be a knockoff of the avonds, even if they HAD splashed a fuselage mold from it.
Here's a question:
What does the internal former structure of the Avonds look like, compared to the Skymaster?
While only Boeing can copyright the SHAPE of the F-15, it's not really relevant here, as Skymaster certainly CAN protect and own their own arrangement of formers and such, all the internal designs that make it a good model.
10-06-2005, 08:53 AM
#36
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RE: Jet Legend?
In answer to the question of whether Skymaster is a copy of Avonds F-15? The answer is a definitive NO WAY! I have both kits and there are many substantial differences between them including size. The overall shape is very similar, of course, since they both are F-15's, but the Skymaster is completely different.
As far as purchasing a knock off from Jet Legend - you pays yo money and you takes yo chances. I had a couple of minor problems with my Skymaster F-15 and they were super to jump right on it with a fix. I like to buy from reputable dealers who have a network of service centers and make it easy for me to resolve any subsequent problems should they come up. I try to avoid dealers who don't offer after the sales support - that makes any $ savings not worth the hassle.
Just my $ 0.02 worth.
Regards, Les
As far as purchasing a knock off from Jet Legend - you pays yo money and you takes yo chances. I had a couple of minor problems with my Skymaster F-15 and they were super to jump right on it with a fix. I like to buy from reputable dealers who have a network of service centers and make it easy for me to resolve any subsequent problems should they come up. I try to avoid dealers who don't offer after the sales support - that makes any $ savings not worth the hassle.
Just my $ 0.02 worth.
Regards, Les
10-06-2005, 08:58 AM
#37
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: jetjockey
In answer to the question of whether Skymaster is a copy of Avonds F-15? The answer is a definitive NO WAY! I have both kits and there are many substantial differences between them including size. The overall shape is very similar, of course, since they both are F-15's, but the Skymaster is completely different.
As far as purchasing a knock off from Jet Legend - you pays yo money and you takes yo chances. I had a couple of minor problems with my Skymaster F-15 and they were super to jump right on it with a fix. I like to buy from reputable dealers who have a network of service centers and make it easy for me to resolve any subsequent problems should they come up. I try to avoid dealers who don't offer after the sales support - that makes any $ savings not worth the hassle.
Just my $ 0.02 worth.
Regards, Les
In answer to the question of whether Skymaster is a copy of Avonds F-15? The answer is a definitive NO WAY! I have both kits and there are many substantial differences between them including size. The overall shape is very similar, of course, since they both are F-15's, but the Skymaster is completely different.
As far as purchasing a knock off from Jet Legend - you pays yo money and you takes yo chances. I had a couple of minor problems with my Skymaster F-15 and they were super to jump right on it with a fix. I like to buy from reputable dealers who have a network of service centers and make it easy for me to resolve any subsequent problems should they come up. I try to avoid dealers who don't offer after the sales support - that makes any $ savings not worth the hassle.
Just my $ 0.02 worth.
Regards, Les
10-06-2005, 09:13 AM
#38
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RE: Jet Legend?
PMFJI gentlemen.
At Windy City Jets couple of months ago guess who was there? (SkyMaster)
At Spiderman Jets last week, guess who was in attendance helping their customers and flying from dawn to dusk? (SkyMaster)
In consideration with the forgoing, guess who will get my $$ if I have to buy any kit they manufacture? Hmmmmmmm…….
At Windy City Jets couple of months ago guess who was there? (SkyMaster)
At Spiderman Jets last week, guess who was in attendance helping their customers and flying from dawn to dusk? (SkyMaster)
In consideration with the forgoing, guess who will get my $$ if I have to buy any kit they manufacture? Hmmmmmmm…….
10-06-2005, 09:23 AM
#39
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RE: Jet Legend?
I'm surprised I don't see a large F-18 in the other pictures post... Unless the pictures were carefully screened before posting so you wouldn't see it. This is just a guess and connecting some dots. Would make this little soap opera a little more dramatic, eh?
10-06-2005, 09:34 AM
#40
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RE: Jet Legend?
Internally, the formers and such are very similar since you do have to accommodate an engine and the main retracts in the same general area, and their placement inside the fuse is similar, but everything else is much different - the stabs, the exhaust nozzles, the forward fuse attachment method, the internal ECU tray, the fuel tank setup, and so on. The Skymaster is a lot smaller volume wise than the Avonds, and I don't believe the outline is as close to scale as the Avonds. Remember, the Skymaster is a standoff sport F-15, and the Avonds was originally designed for competition. Granted, Phillip Avond also took some liberties with the outline here and there to make it easier to mold, but it is much closer to my 3 view info than the Skymaster was in certain areas, HOWEVER, they both look like F-15's from almost any angle, and they fly very similar to each other. The Skymaster has panel lines already molded into the surfaces of all parts, and the Avonds does not, although, I hear the new F-15 from Avonds will have the panel lines molded into the fuse like the Yellow F-15 does. The Avonds will take a considerable amount more work to complete, since the wings and stabs have to be glassed and painted, but it builds out a little lighter (because of the construction method), and it more resembles a fiberglass pattern bird than the Skymaster ARF which is mostly bolt together and go fly right out of the box.
They both look like F-15's but after having flown both, I prefer the Avonds personally -- Mostly since it is bigger and little easier for me to see, but it also takes more power to make it perform than the Skymaster does. Still depends on personal preference as to which is the better buy. For me, I had both, have flown both, and sold the Skymaster, but am gonna keep the Avonds.
Regards, Les
They both look like F-15's but after having flown both, I prefer the Avonds personally -- Mostly since it is bigger and little easier for me to see, but it also takes more power to make it perform than the Skymaster does. Still depends on personal preference as to which is the better buy. For me, I had both, have flown both, and sold the Skymaster, but am gonna keep the Avonds.
Regards, Les
10-06-2005, 09:36 AM
#41
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: jetjockey
Internally, the formers and such are very similar since you do have to accommodate an engine and the main retracts in the same general area, and their placement inside the fuse is similar, but everything else is much different - the stabs, the exhaust nozzles, the forward fuse attachment method, the internal ECU tray, the fuel tank setup, and so on. The Skymaster is a lot smaller volume wise than the Avonds, and I don't believe the outline is as close to scale as the Avonds. Remember, the Skymaster is a standoff sport F-15, and the Avonds was originally designed for competition. Granted, Phillip Avond also took some liberties with the outline here and there to make it easier to mold, but it is much closer to my 3 view info than the Skymaster was in certain areas, HOWEVER, they both look like F-15's from almost any angle, and they fly very similar to each other. The Skymaster has panel lines already molded into the surfaces of all parts, and the Avonds does not, although, I hear the new F-15 from Avonds will have the panel lines molded into the fuse like the Yellow F-15 does. The Avonds will take a considerable amount more work to complete, since the wings and stabs have to be glassed and painted, but it builds out a little lighter (because of the construction method), and it more resembles a fiberglass pattern bird than the Skymaster ARF which is mostly bolt together and go fly right out of the box.
They both look like F-15's but after having flown both, I prefer the Avonds personally -- Mostly since it is bigger and little easier for me to see, but it also takes more power to make it perform than the Skymaster does. Still depends on personal preference as to which is the better buy. For me, I had both, have flown both, and sold the Skymaster, but am gonna keep the Avonds.
Regards, Les
Internally, the formers and such are very similar since you do have to accommodate an engine and the main retracts in the same general area, and their placement inside the fuse is similar, but everything else is much different - the stabs, the exhaust nozzles, the forward fuse attachment method, the internal ECU tray, the fuel tank setup, and so on. The Skymaster is a lot smaller volume wise than the Avonds, and I don't believe the outline is as close to scale as the Avonds. Remember, the Skymaster is a standoff sport F-15, and the Avonds was originally designed for competition. Granted, Phillip Avond also took some liberties with the outline here and there to make it easier to mold, but it is much closer to my 3 view info than the Skymaster was in certain areas, HOWEVER, they both look like F-15's from almost any angle, and they fly very similar to each other. The Skymaster has panel lines already molded into the surfaces of all parts, and the Avonds does not, although, I hear the new F-15 from Avonds will have the panel lines molded into the fuse like the Yellow F-15 does. The Avonds will take a considerable amount more work to complete, since the wings and stabs have to be glassed and painted, but it builds out a little lighter (because of the construction method), and it more resembles a fiberglass pattern bird than the Skymaster ARF which is mostly bolt together and go fly right out of the box.
They both look like F-15's but after having flown both, I prefer the Avonds personally -- Mostly since it is bigger and little easier for me to see, but it also takes more power to make it perform than the Skymaster does. Still depends on personal preference as to which is the better buy. For me, I had both, have flown both, and sold the Skymaster, but am gonna keep the Avonds.
Regards, Les
Thanks.
10-06-2005, 09:37 AM
#42
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: ChuckC
I'm surprised I don't see a large F-18 in the other pictures post... Unless the pictures were carefully screened before posting so you wouldn't see it. This is just a guess and connecting some dots. Would make this little soap opera a little more dramatic, eh?
I'm surprised I don't see a large F-18 in the other pictures post... Unless the pictures were carefully screened before posting so you wouldn't see it. This is just a guess and connecting some dots. Would make this little soap opera a little more dramatic, eh?
10-06-2005, 10:22 AM
#46
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
So...you guys are saying Sparks/JetLegend is a bad, immoral company, and you should boycott all of their products?
So...you guys are saying Sparks/JetLegend is a bad, immoral company, and you should boycott all of their products?
I made my statement because SM has reps at local events that I attend and that makes it more convenient to get good customer service.
I never used the "B" word.
10-07-2005, 06:05 AM
#49
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: rcmigpilot
One thing I will say is I wish Skymaster would offer some of their planes in kit form like Jet Legend is. There are many of us that are just barely able to afford jets and the cheaper kit alternative would be great.
One thing I will say is I wish Skymaster would offer some of their planes in kit form like Jet Legend is. There are many of us that are just barely able to afford jets and the cheaper kit alternative would be great.
10-07-2005, 06:33 AM
#50
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RE: Jet Legend?
ORIGINAL: AirPac Models
We will think about the kit form. Do you mean people like to build it or like lower the price?
ORIGINAL: rcmigpilot
One thing I will say is I wish Skymaster would offer some of their planes in kit form like Jet Legend is. There are many of us that are just barely able to afford jets and the cheaper kit alternative would be great.
One thing I will say is I wish Skymaster would offer some of their planes in kit form like Jet Legend is. There are many of us that are just barely able to afford jets and the cheaper kit alternative would be great.
My thoughts,
George