Strykaas

MiragePilot is true.

The point is to guess the threshold below which OS will claim it's no longer worth producing DF engines, let alone bankruptcy, which I doubt. And how far from this threshold are we today ?

Do not forget also that we could have some kind of surprise. I'm waiting for the day when a turbine will unfortunately explode and carry out serious injuries (if not kill). I hope it won't :cry: . This would be liable to lead us to a total ban of these engines. I thing one major accident would be enough. At this time, modellers would get back to D/F.

BTW, has anyone seen a D/F explode ? What happens then ? Is it contained by the airframe or the duct ? Has any serious accident happened with these engines ?

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Gas engines haven't been replaced, propellors are still in use and D/F jets are and still will be round for years to come. Heck even horses are still being used. We might not see as many or as often but they never really go away. There are still soome parts of the country where D/F are the newest and hottest thing going. Sure turbines get the Shock and Awe vote but its the D/F guys who are flying at any and all airfields and that alone will keep the market there. How many guys can afford to have their own private fire dept show up when ever they want to fly that $10 grand jet for fear of starting a fire........ D/F rule. I have this saying, Its only expensive when you crash, well with turbines, that goes right out the window. It is just plain expensive. I am in the process of putting funds together to get my first turbine and the cost has exceeded my budgetand almost my nerve......

LTV_A7D

My Feedback: (2)

Right now, on this jet forum, a new company has an F15 ARF for around $1500 + $2300 for the engine = $3800 ...about the same cost of a high quality DF "go fly" price. Someone getting into turbines surely already has retracts/wheels & building materials lying around. I sure as heck do. So, these "10-15 grand" estimates for jet modeling seem inflated ...or does it cost $6200+ to hire the local FD for the day? I know my firehouse guys would show up for free to watch a turbine fly! Lastly, I'd expect a DF engine to explode unexpectedly moreso than a turbine. Turbine speed is computer controlled, operating at the height of technology. Am I right? Someone chime in here!

Steve

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

Firstly, turbines cannot "explode" - in the true sense. They can (and some have) have turbine wheels disintegrate, or shoot flames out the rear if not properly set up and run. Since the fuel is kerosene and the turbine engine is open to atmosphere on either end, it cannot "explode". I hear this often enough - oh all it will take is one death due to a turbine powered model to put an end to it... I dont think so. Deaths have occured by models and we still fly. Why pick on a turbine? Having (in the last year and a half) built and run two turbines (for over 12 hours total run time) and also a few hours of a ducted fan, I would say the turbine I feel 100% comfortable around, and if you follow the safe practices laid out by your respective model association, and the GTBA, you should never have an issue.

As for cost, well, I have a modest job as a cabinet maker. I managed to fund in the last year (on top of my other model projetcs) a WRen kit engine ($2000 US) and also a home built KJ66 that still cost me about $1400 US for the cast parts and ECU, fuel pump, etc. If you want one, there is allways a way. I saved up for over a year to buy the WRen. I feel it was worth it!

AJC

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

OK guys maybe $10 grand MIGHt be a slight and I mean slight exageration but not by much. I am getting a turbine cause the bug has bit me but the cost is still there. Brakes, digital servoes, bypasses etc. Jst don't havethose laying around the shop.

Strykaas

As far as I'm concerned, buying a P80 is above one month's salary :drowning: !!!


Saving money for a year (at least) will be compulsory :cry: ...

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

Um, you dont HAVE to spend big bucks. I am building my third plane currently for turbine use. Its an AV8R kit, which costs $340 US. Comes with ALL hardware necessary and only regular 50 oz servos are required for ALL control surfaces! No expensive retracts, brakes, digital servos, etc required. Yes, a turbine will set you back a few grand but that doesnt mean you cannot build a fly a turbine model on a budget.

If you really want cheap, build a SPAD jet, yes, it can be done and I am having a blast with mine, which I built for fun and am flying the heck out of untill I get my AV8R finished.

Andrew

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

I f I am gonna do Turbine, the Av8r wont be my first choice although it probably should be. I was the guy who saw RC forthe first time and went out and bougt that P51. After I crashed that I bought my trainer. I a almost under the belief that you dont truely need a Turbine trainer of that sort if your flying is up to snuff but like most guys......we want the biggest and baddest. So what is the purpose of a turbine trainer? The turbine or the flying?

Strykaas

Should I buy a turbine, no doubt I would install it into something which looks like a real jet, nothing else, even if I have to scratch build this jet (kits are expensive too !!).

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

Mostly the Turbine, but it also will acclimate you to the idiosyncrasies of the Turbine engine.

SigKavalier

I'd say if turbines were to come down another $500 DF's would be in trouble. I mean $500-600 for a new DF power system or $1000-1200 for a new turbine setup?
I'd pay double for that extra power, reliability, and just the sound. Especially if I was going to put it in anything remotely scale.

I still of course think someone should offer a lower cost turbine like some of the older one's I've seen. Like something the size of a 12lb thrust turbine yet in the 7lb thrust range.
It would be cheaper to produce as the tolerances don't have to be as tight. There's a lot you could fly with one of those. Especially if it was in the $700 price range.

I mean most of the newer high power electric ducted fans I see are incredibly light. They're only putting out 6-7lbs of thrust, and yet carrying 4lbs of just batteries. Close to another lb in the motor, and fan.
Plus they lack both the sound of a turbine, and the high efflux speed. So even a 2lb turbine with a couple of lbs of fuel would reach the same performance. Which is 150+ mph and pushing 200mph in a dive.
Plus you would have the turbine sound, and I imagine better run time. Plus I mean $200+ in batteries, $100-150 motor, $200 fan, $150 for the ESC. Thats on the low end as most end up costing $700-1000 for the power system.

stumax

It's good to see a debate like this! I began my jet flying in the mid 80's with a Picco 65 powered Boss 602 fan and a scratchbuilt A4 which was the fastest taxying plane at our field. Of course I've done considerably better since then (I was only 15 at the time, quiet an achievement when I look back) and had lots of great flying, albeit with several emergency landings. I don't think I will ever fly an engine powered DF model again. The future of DF's is in electric power. What can be easier and more reliable than an autostart turbine? Electric ducted fans, that's what! I believe that when an EDF system that can fly a 91DF size model is available for a reasonable price (under $1K) we may see the transition from ICDF to EDF in large numbers.

The target is around 5kg (11lb) static thrust using a 120mm dia fan spinning at around 40K rpm. Sure, it will require lots of cells, but with the current lipoly technology it would be capable of 15minute flights with a model that weighs under 14lbs. How many turbines can fly flat out for 15 minutes? Tell me that's not an attractive alternative to a turbine. For the sceptics, I suggest going to rcgroups.com and checking out the electric jets section. Sure, there's some tinkerers, but there are also some extremely professional models with performances that would amaze you.

BTW, I'm not against turbines, in fact I will build one some time in the next 12 months, but as the Aussie summer is a total fire ban period, there's the best part of the year gone without being able to fly it.

Stuart Maxwell

<edited by Stu to remove "commercial content">

Stumax Aircraft
[email protected]

Shaun Evans

Well,

Even if DFs were dying, it doesn't appear that this thread is......

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

I don't think that DF is dead---Maybe wounded a little!

For those of you turned off by the looks of an AV8R or Facet and want the look of a "real" jet and low cost, check out Dave Platt's "Heat Wave"!!!

www.daveplattmodels.com Click on "Projects"

Kevin

viper21

My Feedback: (9)

Well, I have been reading this thread ever since I had posted to it near the begining of the thread. I have one glow ducted fan that I will be starting this week. Along with an electric ducted fan that I am already working on for a review in a major magazine. So yes I think that interest is growing in electric ducted fans. The newest big thing in the world of the EDF is the new Lipoly battery that can produce 15 minute high performance flights that Stu was talking about in the post above. Stu will defintely get what he says accomplished I have seen pictures of his work and he knows what he is talking about. But I still think that Glow ducted fans will survive as well. After I finish my JHH Fury I will be starting my OS 91 and Dynamax powered JHH Phantom. So I have two glow ducted fans that I will have flying while I save the money for my Turbine plane whenever that may be. Because I also have several high performance electric ducted fans. More than one of these is capable of 130 mph and several have retractable landing gear and flaps. So yes I will fly both types of ducted fans and I will keep saving for my turbine. I plan to get my turbine waiver with my JHH Fury. So I hope that ducted fans aren't dying because I will need parts at some point
Viper/aka Joe

johnnyjet

My Feedback: (4)

Ok
I tried to stay out of this but here is my two cents worth.

Ducted fans are not dead they have only taken their rightful places in history.

In the 80’s the ducted fans were top of the line the leading edge of technology.

If you owned one you were admired if you also had the ability to fly one you were a hero.

Today the turbines have filled those shoes.

One of part of this hobby I like is old stuff is not always bad stuff.

When will ducted fans be dead? I will guess. 10 years after control line is dead. (Not gonna happen)

Johnny

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

Come on guys were all brothers here. Of course the ducted fan is still alive, but most important Jets are still alive and here to stay. As with anything, big shows always feature the top dogs, and right now the top dogs are the turbines, thats what the spectators want to see, and they are the most realistic interpretation of a jet available. But we should not forget that we are all the same, guys who love jet models, of course we all have a personal favorites, but lets not put down the "underdog" ... who knows what the future holds. Turbines can and do cause fires when they crash and a couple of big lawsuits or disasters could easily turn the tables (I hope not) but it is a possibility. Right now I am a ducted fan flyer and couldn't be more happy. The fact is as long as ducted fan kits, units and engines are still available they are still alive. I may be wrong here, but I like to focus more on our common love of the jet model, than the differences of our power plants. To jet or not to jet, that is the question.

Best Regards to All

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

After flying my JHH Mirage for the first time last Tuesday I can say that I'm a jet pilot so here is what I think.
Many DF flayers are buying turbines now and selling their DF airplane, engines, fans, pipes and everything related with it so cheap that I can't say thank you enough for all the deals that I got so far, just two years ago DF was to expensive for me, now in less than a year I have acquired 5 jets 3 DF and 2 Turbines, 1 RTF flown once, 1 kit, 1 half way build, 2 turbines ready just minor repairs last two I got them for free, yes for free.

So as you see I fly DF now end enjoying every minute of it but, I'm all so getting ready ( next year with my wife approval ) for my first turbine.

Keep them flying.

CARS II

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

Direct hilan, direct.

SigKavalier

Whoa! How in the world do you get free turbines?
I've actually kind of been hoping I could find somebody selling an old Golden West FD63/7 (I think thats it) turbine for cheap.

viper21

My Feedback: (9)

I would just like to know where all this low priced ducted fan stuff is at? I havent been so lucky in obtaining ducted fan equipment as some of you other guys. I will have my JHH Fury flying by early Fall. Then I will be looking for a Phantom. Anybody that has any ducted fan planes, kits or fans and engines pleae let me know via a PM,
Thanks Joe

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Mr: Sigcavalier.
I'm sorry, That was two airplanes that where flying with turbine before, it's just the airplanes no gear or turbine in them they are painted with minor damages to repair, Blue Angels Y/A F18 single and Rookie.


CARS II

SigKavalier

Oh ok I misread lol. Still though comsidering some kit price thats pretty good.
On a funny note I actually heard someone comment once they were using an old Ram 500 as a door stop. lol
It seems to me that most of the older outdated turbines just got thrown away or are sitting on someone's shelf or used a door stop. When someone like me on a tight budget would love nothing more than to take, and older out of date turbine and fix it up.

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

Hey ducted fan flyers. New issue of tower talk has the OS 91 DF for $284.99 + you can get $15 off any order over $150 on the tower website, so thats a $269.99 for it after the discount.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Thank you for the tip.