Richard Buescher

No Shulman's..... Im in then!!!! Noting like competeing for third place!

Actually thats a great idea, make third place pay say 1000, second 750 and first only 500.

A freestyle is a must these days.

Timmy Redelman I hope you got your ears on...

OK, sign me up for an Ultra Bandit!

reo

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Amen to that!....I appreciate the skill involved and the practice required but the entertainmant value is zero after watching one or two.....Ron

(maybe watching one of the local pattern fellows practicing his routine regularily for three seasons at our field is what brought me to this conclusion)

GManning35

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I like this idea and think it would be nice to start out by using the old AMA style masters pattern set up. There was a list of 37 maneuvers to pick from with each given a K factor (multiplier of the judges score) the higher the K factor the more difficult the maneuver. Everybody had to come up with a sequence that had 12 maneuvers and a total K factor of 45. This would allow you to choose the maneuvers that you and your plane are best suited to.
Face it we all think jets are so cool that we are content to fly in a circle this would add a big dimension but would not be for everyone.
Now if we go back even further pattern contests were run in conjunction with scale. Not everybody did both but we all had fun.
George Manning

perttime

Haven't been to an airshow for a decade or two....
Do the full size fighter pilots manage to do anything interesting in their demo/show flights?
I suppose a freestyle competition is not easy to judge and watching a whole day of the same pattern could get tedious(?) A free selection from a catalog of manouvers, with a set limit for maximum points, sounds like it would keep the spectators interested.

John Redman

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Hey Dustin, now that's what I'm talking about!!!!

We will give Dave enough money in first to buy a couple dozen donuts, we can tell Jason where the event is and hold it somewhere else, and then us mere mortals will have a fighting chance.

Or we can say the top two places don't count and first is really third and so on!!

[email protected]

Dear Jack,
This is a great idea! I am a relative newcomer to jets,flying a KingCat. I flew pattern years ago when the format was Thunderbird style maneuvers-no aerobatic box. When pattern went to all turnaround,I think it lost a lot of flyers. Jets IMHO are well-suited to the "old style" maneuvers. Maybe there could be two classes such as sportsman,and expert,or master. The sportsman could consist of a loop,horizontal roll inverted flight,stall turn,knife edge,etc. Take off,and landing would also be judged. Expert or master would be of course,the more complex maneuvers,rolling circles,8 point rolls,inverted spins,etc. Perhaps each class could choose from a "menu" of appropriate maneuvers. This would add a little individuality,and make watching each contestant less "boring". Just my 2 cents
Ancient Pattern flyer,
Tom Murphy
May all your take-offs,and landings be equal.

cactusflyer

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Does anybody out there have a copy of a pre-1984 AMA rule book? I'm looking for the old list of pattern manuevers and descriptions....

Tailwinds,

John

FlyUtah

I think this all sounds like a really great idea. When is someone going to draw up some sequences for jets? It would be nice to have some for BobCat/Rookie types and more scale jets.

GManning35

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Hello John

I have some of the old rulebooks and if there is a real interest once I get back home on
Monday I can post a list along with the original K-Factors for each. Most of the maneuvers would be fairly easy to perform and if given a chance this weekend I'll try to put a sequence together at theTucson jet rally just to see how well it's accepted.
George Manning

bvm viper

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I think we are on the right track here guys I do miss pre 1990 pattern it was fast big and fun back when we where flying pheniox 7 and 8s, Atlanta 60s and summits ect. That was a good time and good compation tell politics got in to it to much. Like the top hats with 1/2 rolls and square loops ect gee brings backs alot of good times there.
Daniel Hemmig

speed run

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I THINK THIS IS A GREAT IDEA . MAYBE THIS WILL SPARK SOME OF THE OLD PATTERN MASTERS TO GET INVOLVED WITH TURBINE JETS. THE TWO CONCERNS THAT I CAN THINK OF ARE THE ISSUES OF SPACE FOR ONE ,TWO OR THREE PILOTS AT A TIME .ALSO THE LENGTH OF A EVENT WITH LETS SAY 50 PILOTS.

JUST SOME ISSUES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT

MIKE KIRBY
BLUEGRASS JET JAM
EVENT CHAIRMAN

SKYPILOT

My Feedback: (9)

I say we call a short meeting together at Tucson for those intrested in this venture, and hash out a few details, set up a sequence and have George or whoever fly it, and we can go from there, i just wish Tony were going to be there with us as this is his world totally and his input and insight would be priceless...........

cactusflyer

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I talked to Tony at length about the Jet Pattern concept the other night and we brainstormed quite a few ideas. I've been flying the same 9 manuever sequence (not including turn-around manuevers) with my Reaper for the last 3 years. It's hard to do it at rallys with the race-track patten in effect.... Here is the sequence of the center manuevers:

Loop with full roll at the top

Four Point Roll

Reverse Cuban Eight

Eight Point Roll

Cuban Eight

Slow Roll

Top Hat with 1/2 Rolls

Two-Point Roll or Straight Inverted Flight or Low High Speed Pass (well, high speed for the Reaper!)

Vertical Eight

And then maybe a Vertical Upline with a 1 1/2 Outside Snap...or not

We leave for Tucson in the morning.

See 'Ya in TUS

John

smokin-gun

My Feedback: (18)

doing it at a current fly-in is the key issue. the race track pattern is too full and there is not enough time to seperate the flying .,so the pattern events defenetly need their own dates scheduled and will keep the majoraty from getting restless.

mu2driver

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Joe with you're talent flying Giant Scale Aerobatics you should fall right in with this type of flying...

Im getting ready to pull the trigger on a Jet...

Jack this type of event will be 100% cool...

GoeKeli

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John,
your sequence looks good. I agree with the old pattern ideas. Maybe a large box with turnaround manuvers etc. I'm not sure there is a jet pilot I have ever seen fly that could not benifit from some pattern work especially me.
Anyone who has a jet can get in, has to be the rule. Could someone write some aresti and post them please? I could imagine many jet in the air cutting nice lines and flying formation because of this kind of practice, making for much above average displays.




Darcy, you are a mentor and a friend! Thanks for the complements. I only want to have fun and increase the chances in the future. I am pretty intrigued by this jet thing but not sure it takes the place of GS 3D or IMAC. Would like to bring my own brand of entertainment to the jet thing, that might break things up for me. Mo fun!
I think I could see you with a jet in your hangar!~)

Joe

Joe with you're talent flying Giant Scale Aerobatics you should fall right in with this type of flying...

Im getting ready to pull the trigger on a Jet...

Jack this type of event will be 100% cool...



[/quote]

mu2driver

My Feedback: (15)

gota luv mo' fun...

roo

If turnaround manouvers are to be included, count me OUT. paul.

SKYPILOT

My Feedback: (9)

I'll second ROO's coment.

The direction this thread has been going would seem to point to modern jets doing old school AMA retro style pattern. That excites me. Turning this into jet imac has no intrest to me whatsoever [sm=thumbdown.gif]

mu2driver

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Hi Paul,

I havent posted much about Jets, but try to read up on the threads to gain invaluable knowlage from some of these guys.

No music, No turnarounds, what then can you offer up, and why do you say No Turn Around Manuvers?

roo

mu2driver. Sent you a pm. Paul.

mu2driver

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Got it Thanks roo!!!

AAbdu

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I am curious about the aversion to turnaround maneuvers as well. I am an active pattern flyer and often hear that the reason the popularity of pattern declined so much was due in big part to going to the turnaround format. I have flown both and admit that the turnaround style is a bit more challenging, but less boring to fly.

The best jet demos I have ever seen were basically pattern flights without a lot of the snaps and stalling manuevers. I watched Lewis Patton fly his CAI Predator (I believe) in Dayton, and it was fantastic. Long passes with precise rolling and looping maneuvers in the middle... Fantastic.

Nothing improved my flying as much as getting involved in pattern. It demands a certain focus and discipline that improves your flying. Some pattern guys say that flying without a purpose is like golfing without the holes.

I am all for it!

Jetmodeler

I like Jack's thought of bringing pattern flying to jets. Years ago we did it with ducted fans outside of Columbus at an event called the Jet Nationals. We had a lot of fun flying a low key pattern event with ducted fan models. Fast and smooth styles is what our jets do well, but like most of today's flying has proven, it can, and will, grow from there. Yeah, lets do it again after all a lot of us are old pattern flyers, kinda of going back to our roots.

Jim Hiller

Jack Diaz

My Feedback: (1)

This is a great forum !!!
I have been away from home and wasn't able to post. Sorry.
I´m glad to see that there is a lot of interest in doing this.

A few points I would like to talk about:

- Regarding the sequences to use, besides some very interesting ones mentioned here, I talked to David Shulman (he may be the guy who knows most about the capabilities of our jets) and he promised to suggest a couple of alternatives. Let's see what he comes up with, and go from there.
- Regarding the concern about the turnarounds, I'm a bit confused. We always have to turnaround anyway. Turnarounds could be 1/2 cuban 8, or 1/2 reverse cuban 8, or a humpty-bumpty, or a humty-bumpty with 2 1/4 rolls, or a procedure turn with 3/4 roll, etc, etc. We can even make the turnarounds fit the racetrack pattern, like the humpty bumpty with quarter rolls, so that several pilots can fly at the same time. Now, if the box size is the concern, lets make the box 180 deg. and center the maneuvers. If the concern is doing the maneuvers in one direction only, then I don't agree.
- With respect to pattern flying as a discipline and a philosophy, I couldn't agree more. There is nothing more rewarding that a maneuver perfectly done, when and where you wanted it !!!

- As a place to start before we agree on the rules, maneuvers, etc. I suggest:
-- Come up with your own sequence, let your caller know it, call every maneuver when you are going to do it, and call complete after is done. This is fun and difficult. (I have a good friend who is a great pylon pilot and a jet pilot too. When I ask him to call the maneuver, he immediately panics and forgets what to do. I guess the talking and flying areas of the brain conflict with each other... )

- Some comments have been related to pattern being boring to watch. Not meaning to be rude, but this is more for the satisfaction, challenge, and improvement of the pilot than for the amusement of the spectator. Happiness is the reward that comes with the accomplishment of the objective, and I think that is what we are searching for.

My good friend Walt Schoonard used to say :" One thing is to Fly, and another one is to punch holes in the sky".

This is the link for the Aresti page http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/...ics/aresti.htm Is very interesting.
And this is the link for IMAC http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

Regards
Jack