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EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

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Old 03-29-2006, 11:50 AM
  #26
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

After flying turbines and all of their excess power compared to a DF I wonder if you'll be happy taking a step back on the power output and slower top speeds. The DS-94 is capable of producing high static thrust but I'm not sure about the TP velocity. I have gone the other direction by building and flying a turbine model. Now that BVM is stepping up to the plate and I think that large EDFs are viable. Until now if you wanted a standard size edf you pretty much had to come up with your own conversion. Your best bet for high performance is get the watts/LB in the 250+ range!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Steve S

I have been wanting a EDF jet for some time but honestly the smaller airframes out there just didn't appeal to me .I was/am only interested in larger airframes and BVM has stepped up to the plate once again[8D]Really looking forward to owning one of these ,bet they sound friggen awesome too with the larger fan units!!


thanks,Steve
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Old 03-29-2006, 12:32 PM
  #27
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Hi Bob,

I have to agree with you that the Siren's call of turbine powered aircraft is intoxicating. I truly enjoy my BobCat at full tilt boogie! However EDF still gives me a lot of enjoyment. We recently lost our turbine friendly field to developers so it looks like a bigger EDF is in my future for local flying. BTW, are you going to SEFF?

Best Regards, Bill
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Old 03-29-2006, 12:59 PM
  #28
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Bill,

You bet I'll be at SEFF! I think you'll be impressed with my demonstration model this year.
What are you bringing to fly?
Bob
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:29 PM
  #29
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Bob,

I plan to bring the Bob-E-Cat, HET F18, maybe the HET F-20. I think that BVM should bring the E-Viper.

Regards, Bill
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:47 PM
  #30
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

I'm sure David Shulman will be there with it, Let's hope so!

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ORIGINAL: Gordito Volador

Bob,

I plan to bring the Bob-E-Cat, HET F18, maybe the HET F-20. I think that BVM should bring the E-Viper.

Regards, Bill
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:59 PM
  #31
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

You know I'm jumping in... EJF has been selling 120mm EDF fan packages for over 5 years, so many customers don't care to be online, in the spot light or even take pictures of their birds. They just want to have fun and we respect that. EJF is a fulltime business for me and others and I personally welcome BVM to the game, we all have watched over the years and those dolled up Turbine jets are the ultimate. BV has cruised by the EDF's at meets many times and has seen his local people and reps all around grow with EDF's. This is more a justification that we all haven't been goofing off having the jet man himself jump in. This move helps EDF and at jet meets too.

Last year we became a Schübeler dealer and have been providing many new high performance setups and 2006 we will see a rise in chasing down the Turbines at jet meets. Many Hawks and others will be popping up everywhere. I attached a few pictures of a 120mm system we sold in quantity back in 2000-2003 and one of the large George Miller A-10's we did that went very well for it's time in 2001 among several other large EDF's, that's the 52" Combat Models conversion and Mini A-10 that helped start our business back in 1998 - large jet conversions and new designs are happening all the time and we are glad to be doing our part in supporting this area. EDF is definitely here to stay along with Turbines so all the jet people need to get along.

--RW
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Robert,

No doubt you're in an exciting arena of jet modeling as these developments actually hit the field. And compliments to you as I've learned a lot from your exploits via the net. Really wished you kept ALL the stuff you sell on your web site, but that would be a full time job in itself.

I would like to see a 120 mm "package" - or suggested packages. I think you're seeing a lot of excitement from the populus for good reason and this is what's driving the potential for sales. There's a market developing here and perhaps why BVM is into it.

What would be a 2k watt/120 mm power package price? If you want to go private, you can PM me.

Several people here interested.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:51 PM
  #33
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Robert you must be taking what I said personally. I was just offering my opinion and I did not imply that there are not other vendors out there. I'm glad you have been supplying 120 mm fan setups and that your customers keep their privacy by not posting in this or any other forum. The fact remains that the large edf models are pretty rare for many reasons.

Examples:
Schuebeler officially annouced the release of the HAWK at MWE 2005 it has been 13 months and still no HAWK.
I btw have been number 1 on that list for over three years now!
Aeronaut annouced the 120 mm Rafale over a year ago. Same story, oh I think this model will show up shortly at least that is what I have been told.
For a recent edf project I did I had to wait over 9 months for the motors were they worth the wait, absolutely.

Yes I am frustrated and flat tired of waiting. So are alot of other guys that fly EDF.

Yes I know you have been selling large Wemotec fans. Yes I know Wemotec is working on a new 120 mm fan.

Hey the more the merrier is the way I look at it.



Robert, I wish you all the success you could ever hope for.







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Old 03-29-2006, 03:12 PM
  #34
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: R_Belluomini

Robert you must be taking what I said personally. I was just offering my opinion and I did not imply that there are not other vendors out there. I'm glad you have been supplying 120 mm fan setups and that your customers keep their privacy by not posting in this or any other forum. The fact remains that the large edf models are pretty rare for many reasons.

Examples:
Schuebeler officially annouced the release of the HAWK at MWE 2005 it has been 13 months and still no HAWK.
I btw have been number 1 on that list for over three years now!
Aeronaut annouced the 120 mm Rafale over a year ago. Same story, oh I think this model will show up shortly at least that is what I have been told.
For a recent edf project I did I had to wait over 9 months for the motors were they worth the wait, absolutely.

Yes I am frustrated and flat tired of waiting. So are alot of other guys that fly EDF.

Yes I know you have been selling large Wemotec fans. Yes I know Wemotec is working on a new 120 mm fan.

Hey the more the merrier is the way I look at it.



Robert, I wish you all the success you could ever hope for.







Er...the BVM stuff that we are all so excited about is not available either!

I think, though, it must be something of a bitter pill for guys like Chris True and Robert Wagoner, who REALLY pioneered this stuff, to have BV come in and grab all the glory(and the money) with one swell foop with just some off-the-shelf parts in a setup that's not even really cutting edge.
But that is, unfortunately, the way the cookie crumbles. You can bet that five years from now, people will talk about how "BV invented large EDF". Just the way of the world.
But some of us will know differently.
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:16 PM
  #35
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

I think that is a definate candidate. I also think the older / lighter polyester kit is the better candidate from a weight standpoint. If the market develops and Yellow can do versions of all there jets with the pre-primed epoxy fuselages but with a little lighter layup and WITHOUT the carbon everywhere including the wing reinforcements plus possibly some thinner ply wood they'd be winners.




Quote:
ORIGINAL: jetflyer

Chris,

What do you think about the DS94-3ph in a Yellow F-16? Using a 10s or 12s pack.
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:30 PM
  #36
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris True

I think that is a definate candidate. I also think the older / lighter polyester kit is the better candidate from a weight standpoint. If the market develops and Yellow can do versions of all there jets with the pre-primed epoxy fuselages but with a little lighter layup and WITHOUT the carbon everywhere including the wing reinforcements plus possibly some thinner ply wood they'd be winners.




Quote:
ORIGINAL: jetflyer

Chris,

What do you think about the DS94-3ph in a Yellow F-16? Using a 10s or 12s pack.
Chris, I think you are asking a lot of Y/A. They just updated many of their kits for "turbine use", and now they need to re-update for EDF? I don't think we will see it unless EDF starts to approach turbine numbers and they feel they could benefit. I guess it is possible to offer both versions, but probably not for Yellow IMHO. They will need to decide which market they will serve. Maybe they could offer larger turbine models and reserve the "smaller" airframes for EDF.

Other manufactures may have to make the same decisions.

A bit off topic I know, but thanks for listening.

George
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:45 PM
  #37
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Any manufacturer that steps up to the plate an offers EDF versions of their jets will win. EDF opens up a whole new market for someone who wants to get into high performance jets without the hassle of a turbine waiver and AMA always watching over your back. Plus many clubs are welcoming electrics because of the lower noise they produce. There are a lot of possibilities that make EDF a viable option for many R/C flyers today.

So don't discount that Yellow and other manufacturers won't get on the band wagon. It could be profitable for them. Plus they would probably end up saving in product cost because they would not have to use extra material to make it beefy for turbine use.
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jetflyer

Any manufacturer that steps up to the plate an offers EDF versions of their jets will win. EDF opens up a whole new market for someone who wants to get into high performance jets without the hassle of a turbine waiver and AMA always watching over your back. Plus many clubs are welcoming electrics because of the lower noise they produce. There are a lot of possibilities that make EDF a viable option for many R/C flyers today.

So don't discount that Yellow and other manufacturers won't get on the band wagon. It could be profitable for them. Plus they would probably end up saving in product cost because they would not have to use extra material to make it beefy for turbine use.
You have a very good point, I think.
Consider this: what will the fans and batteries look like a year down the road, by the time someone like YA actually has updated kits and marketing for them ready? Want to bet the minor extra weight of epoxy versus glass won't matter too much?
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:14 PM
  #39
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

A little weight here, a little weight there - it all adds up. Any one "extra 1/4 or a 1/2 pound" doesn't break the bank but a couple, three, four of em do. That's why I keep mentioning weight. I saw a very nice glow powered Starfire at a meet last year that weighed 15 or 16 pounds without fuel in it. You could see yourself in the clearcoat and it did OK in the air - a lot better than I might have guessed actually but that is a TOAD as far as EDF goes IMHO.

Remember that BVM Viper and Aggressor's were originally 9.5 - 10 pound planes, the Starfire instructions quote 9 - 10 pounds. All pre-metal retracts, struts, solid rubber wheels, brakes, 200 ounce inch digital servo's and fancy paint jobs.

Just to make things clear as well, all this 120mm stuff is brand new bleeding edge. If you don't know a volt from an amp or a Nimh from a Lipo you might want to sit out another 6 months or so. Summer is coming, the first summer for the 120mm equipment. That is the test. BV has a big advantage for EDF development- Florida has only two seasons summer and SUMMER
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:17 PM
  #40
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

I don't think that BVM will get the credit for this one. Too many people been watching it.

What he'll get, and rightfully so, is credit for effectively bringing it to market.

That's the rub and the money. Given my druthers, I'd rather support the pioneers, but if BVM's the only one to get the stuff in mass and at the right price then he'll garner the market. Simple, I think.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:31 PM
  #41
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Actually Turbine airframes have become lighter over the years. Remember the fuel is the heavy, even more than batteries. The big difference is the Turbine is burning it off getting lighter and EDF is loosing power staying heavy. Hurry up fuel cells...

The EDF market is progressing at it's own pace and customer decide the investment levels. Technology finds away in our hobby despite the low quantity by industry standards. The hobby market is about capturing disposable and (some not so disposable) income and then providing the most amount of enjoyment to the customer.

Another reality in with hobby businesses is that many customers, developers and potential customers don't realize that most everyone they deal with has other primary jobs or unrelated business ventures funding what they enjoy. When I started EJF it was a transition from an engineering job in 1997 to fulltime EJF in 1998 dealing with the ups and downs of a growing small business along with providing development for EDF special projects. I finished one last year that lasted longer than I liked and side tracked my personal time for over two years but we still moved along with kits all around the world.

My reason for bringing this up is related to the what is seen in pre-release or lack of product availability. Many times companies are testing the market before even jumping in or they under estimate the demand when releasing. It's not an uncommon tactic that many industries use but definitely not appreciated by customers. Our jets either Turbine or EDF are low quantity compared to our prop cousins and the really high profile advertisers are diversified across all areas of the hobby and must keep it that way.

BVM doesn't hold the market share they once did or you wouldn't be seeing so many other Turbine airframe companies. So plenty of room exists for more and competition always encourages this. The bottom line is we all enjoy jets and hopefully each others efforts in designing, building and flying them. Who didn't want to be a jet pilot but obviously most won't, but this area of the hobby makes those dreams come true.

--RW
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:36 PM
  #42
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

You're right ET but somehow I feel that in 5 months as I was told at FJ's that they will be and the availability will just get better.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER

Quote:
ORIGINAL: R_Belluomini

Robert you must be taking what I said personally. I was just offering my opinion and I did not imply that there are not other vendors out there. I'm glad you have been supplying 120 mm fan setups and that your customers keep their privacy by not posting in this or any other forum. The fact remains that the large edf models are pretty rare for many reasons.

Examples:
Schuebeler officially annouced the release of the HAWK at MWE 2005 it has been 13 months and still no HAWK.
I btw have been number 1 on that list for over three years now!
Aeronaut annouced the 120 mm Rafale over a year ago. Same story, oh I think this model will show up shortly at least that is what I have been told.
For a recent edf project I did I had to wait over 9 months for the motors were they worth the wait, absolutely.

Yes I am frustrated and flat tired of waiting. So are alot of other guys that fly EDF.

Yes I know you have been selling large Wemotec fans. Yes I know Wemotec is working on a new 120 mm fan.

Hey the more the merrier is the way I look at it.



Robert, I wish you all the success you could ever hope for.







Er...the BVM stuff that we are all so excited about is not available either!

I think, though, it must be something of a bitter pill for guys like Chris True and Robert Wagoner, who REALLY pioneered this stuff, to have BV come in and grab all the glory(and the money) with one swell foop with just some off-the-shelf parts in a setup that's not even really cutting edge.
But that is, unfortunately, the way the cookie crumbles. You can bet that five years from now, people will talk about how "BV invented large EDF". Just the way of the world.
But some of us will know differently.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:50 PM
  #43
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Maybe, maybe not. The motors, batteries, and controllers are provided by outside sources, and he needs to rely on those vendors. For that matter, the system has not even been settled or perfected yet. They had thermal shutdowns, that's far from acceptable for a product of his type. Still, can't blame him for announcing it...you have to hand it to Bob, he knew the time was right. We shall see what appears in five months, I hope he can do it, and I hope it's all great stuff.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:55 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Not sure if the were having thermal or LVC shutdowns, that later is my bet from the flights I saw.

Let's sit back and see what happens in the coming months, hell I've waited long before what makes this any different.


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Old 03-29-2006, 05:03 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Easytiger AKA Curtis Mattikow, you wouldn't be taming down now because of your RCJI gig?, come on did you take a chill pill all of a sudden. It's a welcome change after the bun frying you used to give me years ago. "...Why bother hauling batteries..."

--RW
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:03 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jetflyer

Any manufacturer that steps up to the plate an offers EDF versions of their jets will win. EDF opens up a whole new market for someone who wants to get into high performance jets without the hassle of a turbine waiver and AMA always watching over your back. Plus many clubs are welcoming electrics because of the lower noise they produce. There are a lot of possibilities that make EDF a viable option for many R/C flyers today.

So don't discount that Yellow and other manufacturers won't get on the band wagon. It could be profitable for them. Plus they would probably end up saving in product cost because they would not have to use extra material to make it beefy for turbine use.
I believe Jet Hangar Hobbies is now offering EDF packages, A CHEAP power source is needed, As for now The State of art" battery of today is obsolite by sunset. And WE don't know what the of Life these cells have
Semper Fi
Joe
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert Wagoner

Easytiger AKA Curtis Mattikow, you wouldn't be taming down now because of your RCJI gig?, come on did you take a chill pill all of a sudden. It's a welcome change after the bun frying you used to give me years ago. "...Why bother hauling batteries..."

--RW
Who, me? No, I'm just as obnoxious as ever! Even in RCJI!

I don't remember the bun frying, but then again, the list of people I have pissed off is so long, it's hard to keep track! I no longer go out without bodyguards anymore...
Usually, though...I am RIGHT! Not always, but usually!
JPO hates me now, but I see my words from a few weeks back seem to have hit home, and they seem to be making some very positive changes...
I was never a huge EDF fan. I LIKE engines over electric motors. But I like to keep in touch with what is new, what has potential. I was flying the first Kyosho T-33 in the country, I guess that was some ten years ago? It was a real pioneering model. But I kind of got out of EDF a few models after that, until the recent lipo-brushless revolution. Things really CHANGED. Really, really changed. I have some high-powered mid-sized EDF models I am doing for review now, but what really has me interested is the 120mm thing...the idea of pretty much a drop-in plug-and-play solution to converting a lot of 91 sized models. I am trying to line up the right stuff for a series of articles about that, any input is welcome. I am NOT an EDF expert, there are guys like you and CT and many others who have been at it for much longer, but that's really sort of okay, in that what I am talking about is a conversion system for non-experts...just what Bob V. is talking about.
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:22 PM
  #48
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

After all is said and done the jet community got on the electric bandwagon because of Alfa models Mig 15 ,because it had enough speed to satisfy our need for speed in a small package
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:49 PM
  #49
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Default RE: EVF (Electric VioFan) Thrust?

These BVM edf jets will have a fair amount of "building" i assume because the wings and stabs are framed up wood etc. arghhhh V..
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:59 PM
  #50
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Carols Love

After all is said and done the jet community got on the electric bandwagon because of Alfa models Mig 15 ,because it had enough speed to satisfy our need for speed in a small package
Oh, I dunno about that. They are great models, the Alfa, but I think BVM's core customer is totally uninterested in a 28" hand-launched model.
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