cactusflyer

My Feedback: (4)

I just flew in and out of Orange County / Santa Anna (KSNA) and while the First Officer was getting the ATIS (Airport Terminal Information Service) for the departure, my interest peaked when I heard the following in addition to the weather conditions:

“Airman’s Advisory, Caution, Model Aircraft activity 4 miles Southwest of the field below 400’ if you encounter a model aircraft above 400’, advise the tower”

Now, I’ve been doing the flying thing for quite a while now but I have never heard this one before! Whuzzup?

Which field is this?

Assuming that the full scale aircraft operating in the vicinity of KSNA are 1000’ above the populated areas (per the FARs), how accurately can the pilots estimate 400’ unless the model is WAY over 400’?

Have there been "issues"?

Tailwinds,

John

abqflyer

Full scale aircraft are not required to maintain minimum altitudes during takeoff and landing. Depending on the aircraft, they could conceivably be at or near 400' at 4 miles from the airport. Could also be model rockets.

cactusflyer

My Feedback: (4)

I am familiar with what you are saying but in this case, 4 miles Southwest of the field is not on the arrival or departure path or for that matter, with in the traffic pattern. All those familiar with Orange County will tell you about the specific requirements for this airport that is right smack in the middle of some very high-end real estate including noise sensitive areas with the most stringent requirements in the country. My point is that there has to have been some incident or incidents that caused this advisory to be published. I seems reasonable that the 400' rule had to be vastly exceeded by a model aircraft to be noticed at all................................

GSR

My Feedback: (145)

Let them watch there all they want- There is NOTHING there that would even resemble R/C flying. That is some of the most expensive real estate in calif. The shaded area is about four miles south west of SNA. There is a glider hill about 10 miles south EAST of there and the new OCMA field is about 10 miles due east of there but there is nothing but alot of really expensive dirt in the area noted. The rich folk in that area are the reason the jets have to do that gut wrenching climb out then throttle back to idle for noise abatement. I dearly wish there was model flying that close to my house thoug instead of having to drive 75 miles.Scott

Flyjets

My Feedback: (51)

Orange County / Santa Anna (KSNA)

Well to start with I am making the following comments to U as a fellow modeler not as a Commercial Pilot.

I have setup and flown and trained numerous Transport Category Pilots In/out of SNA and there isn't just one problem at this location.

1. High Terrain to the East causing a late descent.

2. Overlay with LAX for arrivals.

3. Various special interest groups with arrival and departure Paths ! Navigation!.

4. Numerous absurd noise abatement procedures with regard to how to operate the Engines Power out put. !Thrust!

To give u some incite Large Turbojet Aircraft are held about 4 to 6 thousand feet high on the arrival when cleared to descend they must deploy speed-brakes and make very steep descent angles while not building up to much airspeed to stay on profile. Typically only out of the last 1500 feet does an Airliner sized plane become stabilized. ' Constant Rate of Descent with Engines Spooled'

I suspect that some of the special interest groups and possibly some Pilots have complained about RC Pilots flying higher then they should. Personally I have seen this as well either they can't tell Altitudes or they don't care. I have not witnessed this at KSNA.

Sounds like the FAA is now watching this area and if more Full Scale Pilots complain your flying RC will be severely restricted. As concerned modeler perhaps it's time someone called the local FSDO or GADO office of the FAA and can find the actual problem.

One last thought this person should not only be a RC Pilot but at least a Private pilot.


Hope this helps U Guys'
Ian

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

I've been in and out of SNA more than a few times and can't imagine someone being 4 miles away from the airport at 400'. That's just not reasonable, but what the heck do I know?

Beave

Jeff Foley

My Feedback: (45)

Wow......you really have to drive 75 miles to fly?? And to think I complain about 15 minutes!!

steph280

My Feedback: (5)

This is probably the OCMA/Fairview park site. The glider guys got into trouble for flying too high so they and enforcing the 400' ceiling rule:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539935

SoCal GliderGuider

OCMA Fairview flying site? New one for me. Last time I got in a fist fight about this Fairview Park was Harbor Soaring Society. Well what is left of HSS after the propeller heads screwed it up. Sailplanes have been flying high for 35 years. Interesting that the unenforceable 400 foot thing popped up when the HSS president is a power only flyer.

SoCal GliderGuider

Need to tell this to the local FAA jerk that thinks he can limit model aircraft's flying hight 3.25 miles from John Wayne.

Daren Savage

My Feedback: (6)

I believe this is more of a concern for inbound pilots. If you're flying down the coast, you would enter the pattern for 19R at a 45 degree angle beginning from the Huntington Beach Pier to an imaginary point about midway of the airport.

This path from the Pier to the mid runway for 19R would fly you almost directly over Fairview Park. Also, it's highly recommended that you fly the 45, as it's called, at traffic pattern altitude, which for 19R is about 1,000 AGL (1,050 MSL) for singles.

And, although you wouldn't normally fly at pattern altitude from the pier, you would want to be getting down to it by Fairview Park. Looking out for model airplanes is not what you want to be doing at the busiest time in a flight, approaching one of the busiest airports in the nation. []

You can call the ATIS at 714-546-2279 to hear it from "Ollie" directly. We call the computer voice "Ollie" because it kind of sounds like one of the Swedes from the Muppet Show.

Below is a map of the arrival flight path that I'm referring to. For those unfamilar with SNA's procedures, you need to get the ATIS info for both outbound and inbound flights prior to contacting ATC.

Daren

SoCal GliderGuider

As I see a high level of professional experiance posting let me ask under what authority does the FAA have to limit the height of model aircraft. Let me "flavor" this by what is posted on the FAA web site:

Question: Does FAA have regulations for operating small radio-controlled, gas-powered airplanes?

Answer: We do not have regulations for small radio-controlled, gas-powered airplanes operated for sport and recreation. We do have guidance for operating "model" aircraft in Advisory Circular (AC) 91-57 "Model Aircraft Operating Standards.


AC 91-57
Date June 9, 1981

ADVISORY CIRCULAR

"DOT Logo"

Subject: MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATING STANDARDS

1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular outlines, and encourages vouluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators.

2. BACKGROUND. Modelers, generally, are concerned about safety and do exercise good judgement when flying model aircraft. However, model aircraft can at times pose a hazard to full-scale aircraft in flight and to persons and property on the surface. Complicance with the following standards will help reduce the potential for that hazard and create a good neighbor environment with affected communities and airspace users.

3. OPERATIONG STANDARDS.

a. Select an operating site that is of sufficient distance from populated areas. The selected site should be away from the noise sensitive areas such as parks, schools, hospitals, churches, etc.

b. Do not operate model aircraft in the presence of spectators until the aircraft is succesfully flight tested and proven airworthy.

c. Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface. When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator, or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.

d. Give right of way to, and avoid flying in the proxibity of, full-scale aircraft. Use observers to help if possible.

e. Do not hesitate to ask for assistance from any airport traffic control tower or flight service station concerning copliance with these standards.


Note this is an AC and not a FAR. Also important to read the FAA deffintion of "aircraft".

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

..perhaps this will answer your question...

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Kind of reminds me of that old George Carlin routine where he gets pulled over by a State Trooper and tells him:

"You're a PUBLIC SERVANT...why don't you go get me a glass of water!"

I think you should go right up to the FAA "jerk" and remind him he WORKS FOR YOU, and he has NO RIGHT TO TELL YOU HOW HIGH TO FLY 3.25 miles from the airport. Go print out those rules and wave them in his face. Then go ahead and fly AS HIGH AS YOU WANT right near that airport.

Go put your money where your mouth is and tell this FAA guy where he can stick it! GO FOR IT!

furloughed ual

My Feedback: (31)

I heard that on the ATIS the other day also and it got my attention......didn't see anything that resembled a model field in 4 nm SW of SNA.....just lots of city and homes.......oh, and BTW, if you're at 400' 4 miles from the airport, you got a lot bigger problem than model aircraft......it's a really bad day at work!!!!!!

teebox11

My Feedback: (33)

California is well known for, well, spoiled, rich, gay, liberal, really weird folks, including Federal Judges. However, when the spoiled rich are involved, people must be careful. With a report like this, do as suggested. Give them a call and find out EXACTLY what the cause for the NOTAM is. Could be, perhaps, that some whinny, dirty diaper, snot nose that is jealous because he/she can't fly r/c, and knows someone in the system, has made a bogus report. This could also apply to some pvt. plt. who lives with his/her parents at the age of 50 and thinks the sky belongs to him/her. Don't worry about it. Enjoy the hobby, fly safe!

Steve Collins

My Feedback: (8)

You are going to come out on the losing end of this EVERY time!

K1 Burner

You should know Mr. collins, shouldn't you?

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

Steve ..... IMO I believe ET ment this sarcastically, you cant push a string or fight city hall
Semper Fi
Joe

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

John,
I have flown at this field numerous times over the last two years. The glider guys are there in the morning and are probably exceeding the 400' ceiling. I have never seen a commercial jet go directly overhead at an altitude that would even allow them to see the models. The prop jobs that fly there is mainly park stuff. Even the EDF stuff I fly with Herb rarely exceeds 400'.
Maybe some private aircraft have encountered some models while entering the downwind 45 but I doubt it.
Bob

charlieoneseven

They had an event over the weekend in Costa Mesa and posted quite a few pics of the site. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564137 every time I have been there it has been nearly deserted and a dust bowl with no nice places to land anything of value. Electric planes and gliders only now to keep the city happy. No glow, gas, turbines or rockets=no fun usually. I was told by a club member that permits would be required for each pilot using the site but nobody at the site has been checking for them that I've seen.
Another site El Toro was reciently closed to R/C but they allowed the horses to stay until the mega park commity decides how to re-use this Marine corps airport. The OC has lost just about every flying field that was any good over the last 10 years starting with Mile Square Park where I learned to fly R/C.

SoCal GliderGuider

The only general aviation aircraft that comes over below 1,000 is the police chopper. As this park is next to a county nature preserve where raptors nest the chopper should not be flying over the area unless it's absolutly necessary. I observed several electrics chasing a fledging Redtailed hawk a few weeks back. Not cool.

The flying area is a 1,000 feet over the three mile limit from the nearest point on the airport property and over four miles if you use the center of the runways. This nulifies the three mile rule that the FAA is trying to impose.

The "prop jobs" include several at 20 to 40 pounds in excess of 50 mph at head level next to a public path. Not something I would want to get hit with or have others hit with.

As I see it the police chopper pilots are the problem not general aviation.

SoCal GliderGuider

The reason that Fairview will be lost is because of the selfish power flyers. They have infiltrated the soaring club and used it's good will with the city to attempt to take control of the site through a forced permit process. Rumor has it that the 400 foot limit was seized upon by them as a means of excluding all the soaring pilots from the site and then, through attrition, from the club. The permit rules are so restrictive that you could not fly a 50 cent balsa glider at the park unless you have $500,000 personal liability or an AMA membership. Interesting that the four or five power flyers behind this are from the now defunct and grass covered Mile Square flying site as well as the defunct El Toro site.

Sailplanes and small electrics have been tolerated by the city. Moderate to large power will not be as there is no intention by the city to fence off the area required to fly them safely.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Hey SoCal,

How has the fight been coming? Managed to get those "Power fliers" out of the park yet? Or did you lose the entire place?

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

Below is a direct quote from the AMA rule book.

"5. I will not fly my model aircraft higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level, when within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator. I will yield the right-of-way and avoid flying in the proximity of full-scale aircraft, utilizing a spotter when appropriate."

I fly at one field S.E. of downtown Denver, CO. that is 2 3/4 miles from the approach end of the north/south runway of Centennial Airport. The model field has had a 400ft altitude restriction mandated by the FAA for over 30 years. There was a colision between a light twin and a model sail plane about 30 years ago. At that time the FAA proposed a 150ft altitude restriction but later agreed to 400ft.