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Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

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Old 09-25-2006, 08:55 AM
  #1
Lance Campbell
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Default Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Over the years, I've seen primarily 2 methods of wing attachment for jets. I'm to the point in a scratch built turbine project that I need to make a decision which method to use, and I'm seeking input about the 2 methods.

One is aluminum spar and a bracket in the fuse. Avonds F-15, and Byrons style for example.

The other method is the tube within a tube, as seen on many 3D craft and the BVM King Cat for example.

I've got about 1.5 inches to work with for wing thickness, and as far as the fuse goes, I've got about 6 inches of depth, before I'll run into the tailpipe area, thus if I use a tube within a tube, it CANNOT pass all the way through to the other wing. I can place formers wherever needed for either method.

Any thoughts?
Any thoughts for vendors of either wing attachment method?

Thanks,
Lance Campbell

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Old 09-25-2006, 09:06 AM
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Shok
 
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

I have this setup on my Cristen Diffussion F-22

I can take some pics tonight.

Basically there are 2 carbon rods projecting out of the wing.
They have a receiver tube mounted just inside the fuse.
I use 2 thumb screws through the fuse into the side of the wing to keep the wings snug to the fuse.

The receiver tubes do not go all the way across the fuse. They are glued into part of a former on the side, maybe 2 inches into the fuse.
Very strong setup.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

I like tubes for spars. I've used items from www.tntlandinggear.com , I believe is the website. Various tube sizes, etc. Anodized, plain, phenolic, etc. If you use the AL blade idea instead, I wouldn't recommend driving a screw into the blade edge. It just burrs, making removal difficult. It's just a sloppy way of doing it.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:39 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Mick Reeves Reaper uses a plywood carry through structure in the fuselage, and then the wing spars, which are tubes front and rear in the wing, slide on top of the plywood and are secured with screws down through the tubes. Works very well. Bob
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

If you cannot pass fully through the fuse the strength and weight advantage of tubes are lost IMHO. You might consider how Byron did the Mig in which the wings were the female side pocket of a plywood plate extension tab coming off of a fuse bulkhead around the fan. I redid a Byron MIG and remade that bulkhead former out of C/F (carbonfibre) It might be possible if that bulkhead were to be aluminum or some laminate of materials wood/c/f. You could get a wing pocket by using a combination of aluminum angle and flat stock needed to get to the desired u shape for tab insertion, I'm sure the wing pockets could be made as strong as the structure they ultimately glue too.

Actually Cermark viperjet has aluminum pockets that might by retrofitable?
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:16 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice


Quote:
ORIGINAL: c/f

If you cannot pass fully through the fuse the strength and weight advantage of tubes are lost IMHO. You might consider how Byron did the Mig in which the wings were the female side pocket of a plywood plate extension tab coming off of a fuse bulkhead around the fan. I redid a Byron MIG and remade that bulkhead former out of C/F (carbonfibre) It might be possible if that bulkhead were to be aluminum or some laminate of materials wood/c/f. You could get a wing pocket by using a combination of aluminum angle and flat stock needed to get to the desired u shape for tab insertion, I'm sure the wing pockets could be made as strong as the structure they ultimately glue too.

Actually Cermark viperjet has aluminum pockets that might by retrofitable?

hey, look at the BVM Rafale .. a short wing tube on each side of the fuse .. not even 5" into the fuselage.. thats all that plane uses for supporting the loads off of all that wing area on those delta wings ... the plane is one of the most solid planes out there. Its all about how well the load is spread out from the wing tube receptacles through the rest of the fuse ..


Voy
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Rockler wood working makes T-channel pieces that look usable; they sell a 4 pack of about 3 inch long T-channels designed to make a cross intersection/four way for T-slots. It's extruded aluminum and anodized - I have no idea what the alloy is, though. Looks great because they are made with two counter sunk holes for screws. The blade size accepted is like 1/4 by 5/8 inch, which is the only problem. The blades (must be at least 2 per wing - is that enough?) would have to be something like 7071, T-6.

The nice part about these are they would be a great, simple bolt-on solution if it would be strong enough. I can get the aluminum in that size all day long.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?O...Select=Details

Anybody know what type aluminum typical extruded is?

The other option is to buy a t-slot cutter:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1572

And build your own receivers using taller blades. As I understand it, wider really doesn't help you on bending moments with beams. The carbide cutters cut aluminum sufficiently well, even though they're really for wood use. You can get mill ends designed for this from Harbor Freight as well.

I've got this same problem working right now.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:50 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

extruded aluminum, try 6061-T6511.
Bob
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:13 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Not knowing the details of your build and structure, this is one way to use a tube or blade. I think you can get a snug fit with a removable tube. Blades can bend, they are weaker in the obvious direction... Both can work.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:54 AM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Both methods works well.. the wing tube method is easier because they don´t need a such well engineered former to support the bracket as long the wing forces are applied on the tube, but this method can´t be used when the turbine installation interferes with it, like a F-15 for example.

So as it said above, this is more about the type of airplane you are designing.


Enrique

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Old 09-25-2006, 01:20 PM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Try SIG. They make a unit that is about 10 inches and might be usable for wingmounting
Yellow Aircraft also makes one as used in the Starfire
Good luck
Ed
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Old 09-25-2006, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Actually, Ron's drawing above, hits the nail about on the head. At this point what former goes where is totally open ended, depending on the needs of the best method.

This is the bird:

[link]http://www.mmrca.org/lance/sledframe.html[/link]

And I've got another update ready to upload when I get home tonight, as I've just finished the bottom fuse mold.

Now with all the major molds done, I'm turning to the final points of former layout and placement. I've got most of them worked out in my head, where they are going and why, but am still open minded on wing attachment methods.

Lance


Sneak peak to tonights update:

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Old 09-25-2006, 03:26 PM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Been following your project since the beggining... congrats! didn´t knew that it was yours. And you are going to cut the wings between the
fuselage and engine pods, or just the outer panels?

Enrique
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:25 PM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

Just the outer pannels, which will make for fairly simple plug in wings.

The nose will come off, just infront of the wing. However the molds for the fuse are in one piece, and the separation formers for that joint will be glassed in while it is still in the mold. That way, when the plane comes out of the mold, the nose will be cut off, and the alighnment is already build in for it's bolting back on for routine use.

That will leave the aft section as a solid unit, that contains the main landing gear, 2 engines and mounts, fuel system, 2 nacelles, 2 vertical fins, drag chute. That signifigantly simplifies former layout and keeps the meat of the gear as one strong piece.

Lance
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:51 PM
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Default RE: Wing Attachment Method - Seeking Advice

some pics as promised


tubes go into wings.
thumb screws through the fuse pull the wings tight


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