Is this for real??
02-08-2002, 02:07 AM
#1
Is this for real??
someone sent this to me, I thought the way it was was bad, but was going to do it anyway. but this is terrible!! jeez
http://www.jetpilots.org/JPO_Turbine...r_proposal.htm
http://www.jetpilots.org/JPO_Turbine...r_proposal.htm
02-08-2002, 02:17 AM
#2
Proposed rules
Totally ridiculous John. Some guys take this stuff WAY too seriously. We're not flying 747's here, just model jets.
I know, I know, they can cause damage, fire etc. I think the current rules are fine the way they are. Any CD with experience can tell pretty quick who is safe and competent and who's not.
It was a good idea to go with turbine certified CD's but they need a lot more of them. Actually, I think the whole concept of being a "Contest Director" is a little silly anyway. What does running an AMA contest have to do with assessing someones ability to fly a high-performance jet model aircraft. Good answer..nothing.
If they want to do anything they should forget the silly CD thing and just get experienced model jet flyers to do the sign-offs.
Gene
I know, I know, they can cause damage, fire etc. I think the current rules are fine the way they are. Any CD with experience can tell pretty quick who is safe and competent and who's not.
It was a good idea to go with turbine certified CD's but they need a lot more of them. Actually, I think the whole concept of being a "Contest Director" is a little silly anyway. What does running an AMA contest have to do with assessing someones ability to fly a high-performance jet model aircraft. Good answer..nothing.
If they want to do anything they should forget the silly CD thing and just get experienced model jet flyers to do the sign-offs.
Gene
02-08-2002, 02:38 AM
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You gotta laugh
Well untill all the Jets Pilots get together and make there own sanction,I guess this is what you have to put with. The bad thing i feel about the AMA is there makeing money ofF the Jet guys bringing in the crowds at there meets.
Oh Well
Oh Well
02-08-2002, 02:41 AM
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Doesn't surprise me!
I wonder if the JPO and AMA realize that these rules, signatures and other related "Hoops" do more to drive-away prospective trubine pilots than bring em' in?
For the most part, anyone who is ready to advance to turbines is already a very experienced pilot. Otherwise, they'd likely admit to themselves that they're not ready for turbines.
In my opinion, even the current AMA Waiver regs treat you like a little kid. You're considered incompetent until proven otherwise. I'm willing to wager that there are alot of pilots out there that will simply say screw all this waiver stuff and fly somewhere else.
Does anyone know if the individual(s) responsible for the actual issuance of turbine waivers are real live active jet pilots themselves? Or are they confused sport modelers who wouldn't know what a can of 2380 was if you showed it to them?
Craig
For the most part, anyone who is ready to advance to turbines is already a very experienced pilot. Otherwise, they'd likely admit to themselves that they're not ready for turbines.
In my opinion, even the current AMA Waiver regs treat you like a little kid. You're considered incompetent until proven otherwise. I'm willing to wager that there are alot of pilots out there that will simply say screw all this waiver stuff and fly somewhere else.
Does anyone know if the individual(s) responsible for the actual issuance of turbine waivers are real live active jet pilots themselves? Or are they confused sport modelers who wouldn't know what a can of 2380 was if you showed it to them?
Craig
02-08-2002, 03:04 AM
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Your AMA District VP
Go to the AMA website, click on Contact Us, click on Executive Council, find the VP for the District you live in, and send him an email stating your concerns. I've already sent one requesting he vote against it to Rich Hanson, who is the District 10 AMA VP. BTW, his email is,
[email protected]
[email protected]
02-08-2002, 03:11 AM
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Is this for real??
Funny thing Tony you weren't so dead set against it when you helped draft it.
The whole purpose of that proposal was to provide for a way for newcomers to jets to enter into flying turbines without having to go through the ducted fan jets. The attempt was made to allow for a strutured way to advance through some simple levels of competency. For those of you that are new to jets this proposal was sent to AMA last summer.
David Reid
The whole purpose of that proposal was to provide for a way for newcomers to jets to enter into flying turbines without having to go through the ducted fan jets. The attempt was made to allow for a strutured way to advance through some simple levels of competency. For those of you that are new to jets this proposal was sent to AMA last summer.
David Reid
02-08-2002, 03:47 AM
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Is this for real??
The JPO proposal was a modification to BVM's proposal that went directly to the AMA. I think if you will re read the JPO proposal you will see that it actually does provide for an entry into turbines under the supervision/guidance of someone that can help you suceed without killing your airplane or some poor guy that just happens to be at the local field when something happens that you are not prepared for.
I will give you an example:
About three weeks ago I recieved a phone call form a modeler that knew that I fly jets, and also knew that I was on the list of Turbine CD's. He told me a guy was about to call me in the next couple of days that wanted to get into turbines but had just started flying in the middle of the summer. Sure enough I got the phone call and the guy came by my shop. He proceeded to tell me all that he had flown and all about his experience and then produced the CD sign off form. When I told him I needed to see him fly he cussed me and said I was just trying to keep him from getting a waiver. NOT TRUE.....I just wanted to make sure he was qualified before I signed him off. Remember that I already knew he was a low time pilot. Another individual from his club contacted me and told me he had never soloed his trainer yet. So the theory that anyone wanting to fly a turbine is already qualified, and experienced.....I don't buy it.
I will give you an example:
About three weeks ago I recieved a phone call form a modeler that knew that I fly jets, and also knew that I was on the list of Turbine CD's. He told me a guy was about to call me in the next couple of days that wanted to get into turbines but had just started flying in the middle of the summer. Sure enough I got the phone call and the guy came by my shop. He proceeded to tell me all that he had flown and all about his experience and then produced the CD sign off form. When I told him I needed to see him fly he cussed me and said I was just trying to keep him from getting a waiver. NOT TRUE.....I just wanted to make sure he was qualified before I signed him off. Remember that I already knew he was a low time pilot. Another individual from his club contacted me and told me he had never soloed his trainer yet. So the theory that anyone wanting to fly a turbine is already qualified, and experienced.....I don't buy it.
02-08-2002, 04:10 AM
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Is this for real??
Yes David, I was trying to help draft it. And the current form of the proposal is why I left JPO.
The example you use shows that the current system works and does not need to be changed. We do not need to make it any harder to get into turbines then it is right now.
The example you use shows that the current system works and does not need to be changed. We do not need to make it any harder to get into turbines then it is right now.
02-08-2002, 04:13 AM
#12
Is this for real??
Originally posted by TonyF
The example you use shows that the current system works and does not need to be changed. We do not need to make it any harder to get into turbines then it is right now.
The example you use shows that the current system works and does not need to be changed. We do not need to make it any harder to get into turbines then it is right now.
02-08-2002, 04:30 AM
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Is this for real??
How many Turbine here have gone through the entire process of obtaining a waiver (either pre 01/01/02 or after)?
How many Turbine pilots here were flying turbines before all the rules were in place? Of these pilots, how many of you have gone through all the current BS to get a waiver? Or were you somehow excluded from these requirements? Or were you automatically issued a waiver…no questions asked?
How many turbine pilots here couldn’t give a Rat’s Patootie about obtaining a waiver and fly anyway?
Just trying to get an idea of how effective all these outrageous rules are.
Craig
How many Turbine pilots here were flying turbines before all the rules were in place? Of these pilots, how many of you have gone through all the current BS to get a waiver? Or were you somehow excluded from these requirements? Or were you automatically issued a waiver…no questions asked?
How many turbine pilots here couldn’t give a Rat’s Patootie about obtaining a waiver and fly anyway?
Just trying to get an idea of how effective all these outrageous rules are.
Craig
02-08-2002, 04:47 AM
#14
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Is this for real??
I think all of us Turbine waiver holders have gone through some kind of hassle to get it anyway.
I'm glad I have it now cause it seems harder and harder everyday to get one.
And how about that new proposal from Bob Violett trying to set the weight to thrust ratio to .7 whats up with that might as well hang it up if you're flying a big boy!!!
Good Luck with your new Waiver guys............ Johnny H
I'm glad I have it now cause it seems harder and harder everyday to get one.
And how about that new proposal from Bob Violett trying to set the weight to thrust ratio to .7 whats up with that might as well hang it up if you're flying a big boy!!!
Good Luck with your new Waiver guys............ Johnny H
02-08-2002, 05:02 AM
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Is this for real??
Tony,
I am aware of that. But there were several points on that that proposal that you did write yourself. I also believe that your opinions might have made a difference and had more influence had stuck with it and tried to convince not just the other reps at that time, but the current newly elected reps.
Read the JPO proposal and BV's proposal. Look at the flight "testing" ask your self honestly under the JPO proposal can I fly all these manuovers? If you can then it is no big deal....now read the freedom that you have being a Level 2 waiver holder under the JPO proposal. If you can't fly the simple manouvers you should not be flying turbines anyway. I think if you will compare some of the AMA's new recommended manouvers you will find the basics covered in the JPO proposal as well. This proposal is nothing new, I just reposted it to the JPO website last night because some questions had come up about it. If you have a problem with it don't just say ...."It's stupid and I don't like it" tell us why you don't like it. The JPO reps are all listed on the same website, and most of their email addresses are posted there. If you don't find one on there email me and I will get you in touch with one of them. JPO wants to hear your comments, and concerns so that they can be your voice at AMA.
FWIW the limited number of people that have commented on this forum against this proposal are FAR outnumber by active jet modelers that did think it was a good proposal.
I am aware of that. But there were several points on that that proposal that you did write yourself. I also believe that your opinions might have made a difference and had more influence had stuck with it and tried to convince not just the other reps at that time, but the current newly elected reps.
Read the JPO proposal and BV's proposal. Look at the flight "testing" ask your self honestly under the JPO proposal can I fly all these manuovers? If you can then it is no big deal....now read the freedom that you have being a Level 2 waiver holder under the JPO proposal. If you can't fly the simple manouvers you should not be flying turbines anyway. I think if you will compare some of the AMA's new recommended manouvers you will find the basics covered in the JPO proposal as well. This proposal is nothing new, I just reposted it to the JPO website last night because some questions had come up about it. If you have a problem with it don't just say ...."It's stupid and I don't like it" tell us why you don't like it. The JPO reps are all listed on the same website, and most of their email addresses are posted there. If you don't find one on there email me and I will get you in touch with one of them. JPO wants to hear your comments, and concerns so that they can be your voice at AMA.
FWIW the limited number of people that have commented on this forum against this proposal are FAR outnumber by active jet modelers that did think it was a good proposal.
02-08-2002, 05:43 AM
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Waiver
All you have to do is go to a jet rally and look at the pilot skills displayed. You will see that the level of skill is quite high. Crashes are becoming rare, nothing like the flaming carnage of a few years ago. Used to be you could go to Deland, FJ, Superman, and be treated to the spectacle of smoke and flames on a pretty regular basis. Not so now.
The point? All these pilots now flying safely and successfully at jet rallies got their waivers under the old system. It shows that the old system worked. We DO NOT NEED any more restrictions on getting a waiver. Those who lobby for more and more requirements are not looking at the real world, where anybody with an eye or two can see that there is not a problem. The old system works, so let's leave it alone.
The point? All these pilots now flying safely and successfully at jet rallies got their waivers under the old system. It shows that the old system worked. We DO NOT NEED any more restrictions on getting a waiver. Those who lobby for more and more requirements are not looking at the real world, where anybody with an eye or two can see that there is not a problem. The old system works, so let's leave it alone.
02-08-2002, 06:08 AM
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Well said Brian
Couldn't have said it better, Brian.
David, not much of the current proposal is what I wrote after the "editing" that was done. That error was never corrected. I decided I was tired of tilting at JPO windmills and moved on to having fun. I do have to admit that I did tire of it pretty quickly, but it was too big of a battle for me. And personally, I think that JPO has no grip on the grassroots out there. I have talked to very few people who are in favor of this proposal.
And with that I'm done!
David, not much of the current proposal is what I wrote after the "editing" that was done. That error was never corrected. I decided I was tired of tilting at JPO windmills and moved on to having fun. I do have to admit that I did tire of it pretty quickly, but it was too big of a battle for me. And personally, I think that JPO has no grip on the grassroots out there. I have talked to very few people who are in favor of this proposal.
And with that I'm done!
02-08-2002, 06:10 AM
#18
Is this for real??
Originally posted by DavidR
FWIW the limited number of people that have commented on this forum against this proposal are FAR outnumber by active jet modelers that did think it was a good proposal.
FWIW the limited number of people that have commented on this forum against this proposal are FAR outnumber by active jet modelers that did think it was a good proposal.
Im sorry, but I cant see why anyone would approve that load. What is there now works, and even it drives some from turbines. but this proposal, it'll strain out some more people that want to fly jets.
02-08-2002, 06:15 AM
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Turbine waiver
I just read the AMA requirements for level 1 and level 2 waivers. One question,,,Why are they trying to restrict turbines to 140mph when most ducted fan jets have been flying for years at this speed and higher? Who put these people in charge anyway.
Whatever happened to the days when you could just go to the local field and have fun?????
Whatever happened to the days when you could just go to the local field and have fun?????
02-08-2002, 08:08 AM
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Is this for real??
Well I dont think the "AMA"does control your local field,I know it doesn't control mine and never will,good common sense and safety practices control my field.As far as ever careing about flying at a AMA event I'll leave that up to the people that are trying to prove something,I'm in this for the enjoyment recreation.
02-08-2002, 12:45 PM
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Turbine Waiver
I understand everyones frustration with who can sign the new waiver requirement. I bought a Ducted Fan Maverick back in 1996 and the first step was to try and find a local flyer to giude me. There are 5 clubs in the area and the largest (60+ members) had one solitary guy that devided his time between Jets and Helicopters. It was an uphill battle I am still fighting. The point is, gaining a turbine waiver is harder when you dont even have ducted fan help in an area of the country I consider filled with R/C activity. I am sure alot of guys have found that out in their local area as well.
I have found out (Like DavidR) that alot of guys are asking the CD's to kinda/sorta bend the rules to help them out. We (SE North Carolina) have recently started a new R/C Jet club at a little used LARGE airport and have the entire eastern half of it to ourselves. We are small but I will help out any new/old jet flyer in the area.
The information given to the CD's is a set of RECOMMENDED manuevers to be able to assess a potential turbine pilots skills. All I want to see is the person perform what he is comfortable with. Example: if there are 20 parts to the evaluation, do at least 80% competently with a fast airplane. Small errors due to nerves are natural. I will make available my BVM 91 Maverick or a GP Patriot with an OS 91 and tuned pipe, however you crash it you buy it. I know what the rules say about "Preferably 50 flights with a DF" but I once had a PA F-15 with an OS combo that might top 125 mph in a dive, whereas some pilots are talking about a Diamond Dust doing 170+mph. You see the point?
It does not take a CD to know if a guy can fly or is still on a buddy corded trainer. What I wont do is have a guy mail me his waiver form because he cant be there to fly MY STUFF and then have me explain why I cant do that based on his word. So there you have it. If anyone does not agree to what I feel my responsiblities are as a Turbine Waiver CD, please send me an email. My goal is to help rather than hinder, but if you flame me....you cant fly my jets (no one flies the Bandit BTW)! Hope this helps ease some fears about where the system is heading. Try talking to the guy in your area that will do your check out flights and see what his requirements are. See ya at the flying field!!!
Ken Hartsfield
Ft Bragg, NC
Fun Flyer
I have found out (Like DavidR) that alot of guys are asking the CD's to kinda/sorta bend the rules to help them out. We (SE North Carolina) have recently started a new R/C Jet club at a little used LARGE airport and have the entire eastern half of it to ourselves. We are small but I will help out any new/old jet flyer in the area.
The information given to the CD's is a set of RECOMMENDED manuevers to be able to assess a potential turbine pilots skills. All I want to see is the person perform what he is comfortable with. Example: if there are 20 parts to the evaluation, do at least 80% competently with a fast airplane. Small errors due to nerves are natural. I will make available my BVM 91 Maverick or a GP Patriot with an OS 91 and tuned pipe, however you crash it you buy it. I know what the rules say about "Preferably 50 flights with a DF" but I once had a PA F-15 with an OS combo that might top 125 mph in a dive, whereas some pilots are talking about a Diamond Dust doing 170+mph. You see the point?
It does not take a CD to know if a guy can fly or is still on a buddy corded trainer. What I wont do is have a guy mail me his waiver form because he cant be there to fly MY STUFF and then have me explain why I cant do that based on his word. So there you have it. If anyone does not agree to what I feel my responsiblities are as a Turbine Waiver CD, please send me an email. My goal is to help rather than hinder, but if you flame me....you cant fly my jets (no one flies the Bandit BTW)! Hope this helps ease some fears about where the system is heading. Try talking to the guy in your area that will do your check out flights and see what his requirements are. See ya at the flying field!!!
Ken Hartsfield
Ft Bragg, NC
Fun Flyer
02-08-2002, 12:49 PM
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Is this for real ?
Everyone,
now you know why I was trying to have some jet flys out here at the dry lake beds-no BS rules to put up with-I fully understand that something bad could happen while flying-but we do not need anymore hoops to jump through-so come on out to Rabbit dry lake and FLY !
Jackjet
now you know why I was trying to have some jet flys out here at the dry lake beds-no BS rules to put up with-I fully understand that something bad could happen while flying-but we do not need anymore hoops to jump through-so come on out to Rabbit dry lake and FLY !
Jackjet
02-08-2002, 01:21 PM
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Is this for real??
You guys aren't listening..... the whole proposal was formulated with the 2 levels to give the newbie a way to get into turbines without having to jump through the DF hoops. The 140 mph max speed requirement was an attempt to wake the AMA up to the reality that the T/W ratio is an arbitrary number and not something that is a realistic way to limit the speed. Now if you will look at the freedom that the level 2 gives you. It removes any kind of T/W restrictions from you as a pilot. It takes away a loophole that the AMA has to deny a claim if you were to have an accident. The turbine waiver CD was not JPO's idea but was AMA imposed, however JPO is actively scrambling to get more coverage across the country.
FWIW it does not look like the AMA is going to make any decisions on the JPO or any other proposal anytime in the near future. The JPO proposal is a whole lot less restrictive than the one that BVM sent to the AMA safety comittee. And yes it is some additional hoops that you would have to jump through but do you not think that it is worthwhile to get some help when you get started out in a new branch of the hobby?
FWIW it does not look like the AMA is going to make any decisions on the JPO or any other proposal anytime in the near future. The JPO proposal is a whole lot less restrictive than the one that BVM sent to the AMA safety comittee. And yes it is some additional hoops that you would have to jump through but do you not think that it is worthwhile to get some help when you get started out in a new branch of the hobby?
02-08-2002, 05:40 PM
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europe
Seems to me we are over regulating. What type of restrictions do they have in Europe? I have not heard or read of any accidents or injurius and most of the turbine development is done over there. What happed to "This is a free country" ,"And the pursuit of happiness"? Why the speed limit at 140, DF's have been exceeding this for years, some to 250 mph. The flying skills required of these are similar to the turbines, slow the throttle servo progressively and it is same. The airframes on the newer jets are mostly composite now to handle the extra weight and stress of turbine flying, are they not? Does it not just come down to personal responsibility on the part of the pilot? Just my .02.
Mike
Mike
