does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
02-08-2002, 06:18 PM
#1
does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
basically does the AMA need to dictate even more on what we need to do to fly? Here is a simple yes or no poll. Being the current program that is in effect does it need to more stringent?
02-08-2002, 06:25 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
No, I believe the existing Turbine waiver system is working just fine as is. We already have more regulation than we need in every aspect of our lives - regardless of what the do-gooders will tell you, it's impossible to regulate common sense with rules. It's not broke, so let's don't try to fix it!
Regards, Les Morrow
Regards, Les Morrow
02-09-2002, 02:37 AM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
boy you sure got this wrong!
it was from the jet special interest group suggestions asking the A M A for this new waiver requirment because as they have found out the old version didn't work. There are too many new turbine pilots that have more money than flying skills and common sense.
my observation as an C.D.
tom
it was from the jet special interest group suggestions asking the A M A for this new waiver requirment because as they have found out the old version didn't work. There are too many new turbine pilots that have more money than flying skills and common sense.
my observation as an C.D.
tom
02-09-2002, 02:41 AM
#8
does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
explain how the old done doesnt work please. And it is the AMA in the end that makes the rules stick. These jet organizations need to poll peoples opinions better.
Thanks for you info!
Thanks for you info!
02-09-2002, 04:39 AM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
well it is very simple every club have C.D.s they get pressured to verify that joe gofast can fly but the C.D. really won't turn down this request for the waiver. But then this JoeGofast shows up at a jet fly and scares the hell out of the real jet fliers and worse yet might even crash . This request is a direct result of the above situation. The Jet manufactures are in favor and helped out with input for this proposal. And yes for the betterment of the turbine community a very good move.
As far polling goes , you need to get to the fly-ins and talk to the very people that would be affected and what will happen if nothing was done to correct this real problem .
nuff said
tom
As far polling goes , you need to get to the fly-ins and talk to the very people that would be affected and what will happen if nothing was done to correct this real problem .
nuff said
tom
02-09-2002, 07:03 AM
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bager41 has a point
He has a very valid point. I see it often the guy with big bucks picks up a new go fast, he has'nt even finished his training on the high wing trainer. He can fly it but everyone goes and hides when he is setting up for a landing. He has been in the hobby for about 1 year counting the car he started with. You know the guy.
I just think something should be done too keep this joker from getting a waiver. If badger is saying that a CD might be badgered into giving a waiver to him, just so everyone might see the go fast fly (or crash). Then making it harder to get it is only logical.
If one does'nt have enough patience to obtain a waiver with a little extra work, then mayby one should find a new hobby. I don't want to be the one that Mr. X hurts with his go fast, because he hasn't got the patience to do things right.
For that matter there are a lot of automobile drivers that must not have had the patience to lurn to drive a car, and thay have a licence. You see thats Ok because there are already too many rules :~) and everyone should have the right too drive.
Dave
I just think something should be done too keep this joker from getting a waiver. If badger is saying that a CD might be badgered into giving a waiver to him, just so everyone might see the go fast fly (or crash). Then making it harder to get it is only logical.
If one does'nt have enough patience to obtain a waiver with a little extra work, then mayby one should find a new hobby. I don't want to be the one that Mr. X hurts with his go fast, because he hasn't got the patience to do things right.
For that matter there are a lot of automobile drivers that must not have had the patience to lurn to drive a car, and thay have a licence. You see thats Ok because there are already too many rules :~) and everyone should have the right too drive.
Dave
02-09-2002, 10:36 AM
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Waiver Paranoia
Originally posted by badger41
But then this JoeGofast shows up at a jet fly and scares the hell out of the real jet fliers and worse yet might even crash . tom
But then this JoeGofast shows up at a jet fly and scares the hell out of the real jet fliers and worse yet might even crash . tom
02-09-2002, 01:20 PM
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The Requlators -------
There always is someone wanting to tell you what to do and how to do it! If we stand back and look at the progression of the Jet community you will see that we are very well self regulated to began with! The Rally CD's have, I believe done a great job, and pilots that I know or have observed don't take undo / unsafe chances with their $$$$ ++ dollar models.
The waiver system as it is setup today has an even better check and balance built in! One of the CD's signing off a person for a wavier has to be a turbine wavier holder! Take a look at the AMA list, is there anyone on that list that would sign off a pilot that would not meet or exceed the standards the JPO are recommending?
So why regulate where regulation is not necessary? You have to ask yourself that question. I believe the answer is easy to see! Look at the history of anything involving people, there are always some who desire more power, always!
At this point in time my vote is to leave well enough alone, but the way I see it we won't have a vote on this one, unless we all get our VP's thinking more regulation is not necessary -------- how many VP's that you know of even have the foggiest idea, and where are they going to look to get info on how to vote?
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
The waiver system as it is setup today has an even better check and balance built in! One of the CD's signing off a person for a wavier has to be a turbine wavier holder! Take a look at the AMA list, is there anyone on that list that would sign off a pilot that would not meet or exceed the standards the JPO are recommending?
So why regulate where regulation is not necessary? You have to ask yourself that question. I believe the answer is easy to see! Look at the history of anything involving people, there are always some who desire more power, always!
At this point in time my vote is to leave well enough alone, but the way I see it we won't have a vote on this one, unless we all get our VP's thinking more regulation is not necessary -------- how many VP's that you know of even have the foggiest idea, and where are they going to look to get info on how to vote?
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
02-09-2002, 01:40 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
If one of the CD's has to be a turbine waiver holder than what is all the hype about. I know we need to be safe but come on this level 1 and 2 stuff is silly. If the two CD's can't see that you can handle a high speed aircraft than maybe they should not be a CD.
02-09-2002, 02:02 PM
#15
does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
No! there should not be more hoops to jump through to be able to fly a turbine plane! Why make the turbine pilots prove that they are safe when anyone can go fly 1/4 midget pylon planes that are just as fast and will cause just as much damage if they hit you? I am all for safety! I have been flying for 26 years and have flown everything except turbines ( I do fly DF planes and Helicopters). I plan to have a turbine in the near future. Why make it harder to get a waiver? It's already hard enough to convince myself and the wife to spend the kind of money required to fly turbines....
02-09-2002, 02:42 PM
#16
does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
Badger does have a good point, but, the point of having two people watch you fly is so if your not capable, you cant do it. And I thought that both CD's do have to be turbine waiver holders?? I am pretty sure that if they have the examitation flight, and the CD see's they have trouble landing or anything that would not be safe on a jet that the CD, if he/she has any clue at all, would not pass them. Or they should not be albe to approve them.
02-09-2002, 03:10 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
badger41 is going to the same rallies I have been to. While it is true we have seen a lot more safety awareness, and less crashes at recent events, it is because the jet community as a whole has worked together to police themselves. I am not going to stand up in defense of the JPO porposal that is the reason for this thread you know where I stand on that one. However, the JPO proposal was in part what stimulated the AMA to add the Turbine CD's. This is a very good thing.
JohnVH,
I know you feel like you are being oppressed and that the "powers that be" don't want you to have a waiver. Chill out, get off the computer, build your airplane, and keep flying your high perfemance models until you feel like you are proficient enough to get your waiver....then just do it. Get the waiver it is a few little hoops that you have to jump through then it's over, bingo you have it and you can fly your turbines and have fun. It's real easy to get thinking that the waiver system as it is now, or as ANYONE trys to propose changes is there to prevent you from having fun, but this form of propulsion is here and there are a helluva lot of current jet pilots that want nothing more than to keep enjoying this and make sure that somone does not come along with NO abilities and pile one into the pits at a major event or club field and put an end to that.
David Reid
JohnVH,
I know you feel like you are being oppressed and that the "powers that be" don't want you to have a waiver. Chill out, get off the computer, build your airplane, and keep flying your high perfemance models until you feel like you are proficient enough to get your waiver....then just do it. Get the waiver it is a few little hoops that you have to jump through then it's over, bingo you have it and you can fly your turbines and have fun. It's real easy to get thinking that the waiver system as it is now, or as ANYONE trys to propose changes is there to prevent you from having fun, but this form of propulsion is here and there are a helluva lot of current jet pilots that want nothing more than to keep enjoying this and make sure that somone does not come along with NO abilities and pile one into the pits at a major event or club field and put an end to that.
David Reid
02-09-2002, 04:37 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
I too, was intimadated by the requirements for the "AMA Turbine Waiver" I put it off for two years.
I had the paperwork from AMA, got my ground school for the Ram's from Rei Gonzoles completed and signed. But.............
I was really intimidated by the Waiver questions and what my answers should be.
When my 500 was on the way to me I thought I better get this DONE!
I had been attending Jet Events for years, so at the next one I went to (Cincinnati Jets) I was lucky enough to get the second CD to sign and as luck would have it the person from AMA was there and hand carried it back to AMA HQ for me.
I had it a week later. (This year. I didn't have to do anything except renew my AMA.)
It was easier then I thought, just common sense (for the answers) and they all knew me as a competent pilot.
I am just posting this to show how easy it really is, and how you can talk yourself into thinking how hard it "could" be.
Hope this helps some of you "Newbees"
I had the paperwork from AMA, got my ground school for the Ram's from Rei Gonzoles completed and signed. But.............
I was really intimidated by the Waiver questions and what my answers should be.
When my 500 was on the way to me I thought I better get this DONE!
I had been attending Jet Events for years, so at the next one I went to (Cincinnati Jets) I was lucky enough to get the second CD to sign and as luck would have it the person from AMA was there and hand carried it back to AMA HQ for me.
I had it a week later. (This year. I didn't have to do anything except renew my AMA.)
It was easier then I thought, just common sense (for the answers) and they all knew me as a competent pilot.
I am just posting this to show how easy it really is, and how you can talk yourself into thinking how hard it "could" be.
Hope this helps some of you "Newbees"
02-09-2002, 07:24 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
In some ways, this new proposal makes it easier to get a waiver and removes some of the current restrictions. As far as getting the waiver, I don't see how its any harder with the new proposal. Are there any additional documents required that are not currently? It does ADD a requirement to show competence before exceeding 140. I'd be happy to do that for a couple weekends so that I could operate with LESS restrictions that this proposal provides.
I don't like: I don't think the waiver removal process is clearly defined enough. Heck, I heard a guy was complaining at my field about my passes "down the runway". I don't fly down the runway. I do make passes paralell and never closer than the outside edge. I don't like the idea of some disgruntled, wish he had a turbine, having the power to pull my waiver.
Turbines are not 1/4 midgets. These planes crash and in a lot of cases can burn. A lot of clubs are spooked by this. Not to mention a huge differences in weight and complexity. Keeping the speed down for the intial flights makes good sense and shows the rest of the modeling community that we are responsible and have a system in place to minimize the risk to the AMA, the rest of the jet community, and the local community and club. In my view, that protects my right to fly jets at AMA fields well into the future.
To everyone that says to look at the jet events as evidence that the system is working- I say its a bad example. The skill level of these pilots are clearly not entry level. One would have to look at guys just getting into turbines who got over their head and crashed because of it. I can think of two crashes last year where slowing the speeds for the first flights would have probably kept these guys from crashing. There's a BIG difference betweena 140mph Bobcat and a 250mph Bandit. Hoping someone is sensible and skilled enough not to get in over their head is not a proactive way of protecting our sport.
I am generally against more regulation, but just what are you "losing" by having to go through an extra step of being judged by your peers? We don't want to intimidate people by the process, but I can tell you thats happening already and does not get worse becasue an extra level is added. The biggest problem I see is getting good coverage of Turbine qualified CD's, but thats a problem we have right now, and would not be any worse with the new proposal.
Yes, manufacturers and the AMA are covering their buts. I hope they do, cause I don't think I want to go back to flying props!
my .02 cents.....
I don't like: I don't think the waiver removal process is clearly defined enough. Heck, I heard a guy was complaining at my field about my passes "down the runway". I don't fly down the runway. I do make passes paralell and never closer than the outside edge. I don't like the idea of some disgruntled, wish he had a turbine, having the power to pull my waiver.
Turbines are not 1/4 midgets. These planes crash and in a lot of cases can burn. A lot of clubs are spooked by this. Not to mention a huge differences in weight and complexity. Keeping the speed down for the intial flights makes good sense and shows the rest of the modeling community that we are responsible and have a system in place to minimize the risk to the AMA, the rest of the jet community, and the local community and club. In my view, that protects my right to fly jets at AMA fields well into the future.
To everyone that says to look at the jet events as evidence that the system is working- I say its a bad example. The skill level of these pilots are clearly not entry level. One would have to look at guys just getting into turbines who got over their head and crashed because of it. I can think of two crashes last year where slowing the speeds for the first flights would have probably kept these guys from crashing. There's a BIG difference betweena 140mph Bobcat and a 250mph Bandit. Hoping someone is sensible and skilled enough not to get in over their head is not a proactive way of protecting our sport.
I am generally against more regulation, but just what are you "losing" by having to go through an extra step of being judged by your peers? We don't want to intimidate people by the process, but I can tell you thats happening already and does not get worse becasue an extra level is added. The biggest problem I see is getting good coverage of Turbine qualified CD's, but thats a problem we have right now, and would not be any worse with the new proposal.
Yes, manufacturers and the AMA are covering their buts. I hope they do, cause I don't think I want to go back to flying props!
my .02 cents.....
02-09-2002, 07:52 PM
#20
does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
Originally posted by DavidR
Chill out, get off the computer, build your airplane, and keep flying your high perfemance models until you feel like you are proficient enough to get your waiver....then just do it. Get the waiver it is a few little hoops that you have to jump through then it's over, bingo you have it and you can fly your turbines and have fun.
Chill out, get off the computer, build your airplane, and keep flying your high perfemance models until you feel like you are proficient enough to get your waiver....then just do it. Get the waiver it is a few little hoops that you have to jump through then it's over, bingo you have it and you can fly your turbines and have fun.
Thanks for the replies! I realize its not a life or death issue, and do think weve pretty much taken care if it. I just want to fly the darn thing!!!
02-09-2002, 10:13 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
John,
I KNOW you want to fly the thing. I have been right there in your shoes.....and still am I can't wait for that next flight. I can't wait to get this Bobcat finished... I can't wait to get my Phantom back in the air...... I can't wait I can't wait!!!! Once you get the waiver you will realize it was not that hard, and the reality of what that JPO proposal actually suggests is more than just a bunch of old farts like the Deland club trying to regulate your turbine out of your hands. That proposal was written by a group of very dedicated, and active jet jocks. Trust me I KNOW how much thought, and effort went into it! Sure it looks overwhelming but it really is designed to get you as a newbie started, and give experienced guys the freedom to operate their airplanes in the same way any other modeller can do with his prop, rubber band, or whatever stuff.
I KNOW you want to fly the thing. I have been right there in your shoes.....and still am I can't wait for that next flight. I can't wait to get this Bobcat finished... I can't wait to get my Phantom back in the air...... I can't wait I can't wait!!!! Once you get the waiver you will realize it was not that hard, and the reality of what that JPO proposal actually suggests is more than just a bunch of old farts like the Deland club trying to regulate your turbine out of your hands. That proposal was written by a group of very dedicated, and active jet jocks. Trust me I KNOW how much thought, and effort went into it! Sure it looks overwhelming but it really is designed to get you as a newbie started, and give experienced guys the freedom to operate their airplanes in the same way any other modeller can do with his prop, rubber band, or whatever stuff.
02-09-2002, 10:57 PM
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does the AMA need to make it more difficult to obtain a waiver?
As far as I know, there has yet to be a single claim on the AMA insurance involving a turbine model. Yes there have been accidents, but probably more by what we would consider experienced people then by newcomers. The JPO proposal, while increasing the burden on newcomers, removes the speed and thrust limitations currently in place that are partly responsible for the very high level of safety we now enjoy. IMO this is foolish and invites even more spectacular accidents from Level 2 pilots.
Again, don't fix what is not broken! The current system is working and does not need to be changed.
Again, don't fix what is not broken! The current system is working and does not need to be changed.
