Crash today at Florida Jets.
03-09-2015, 11:31 AM
#226
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Going back to what happened to the jet, what are the possible scenarios:
1) Radio Failure / Electronic Equipment failure such as Gyros, RX, Batts or Servos
2) Medical failure with linkage, and or issue with the air frame
3) Stall / Pilot error / Human error
In my experiences its generally No. 3 or No. 2 rarely is it No.1. Does the pilot who flies post on RCU?
1) Radio Failure / Electronic Equipment failure such as Gyros, RX, Batts or Servos
2) Medical failure with linkage, and or issue with the air frame
3) Stall / Pilot error / Human error
In my experiences its generally No. 3 or No. 2 rarely is it No.1. Does the pilot who flies post on RCU?
So the linkage had an aneurysm and stroked out during flight.
03-09-2015, 11:33 AM
#227
So many trolls on this forum now...........
It was an accident plain and simple. The Pilot is a very good friend of mine and a all around great guy. The only thing I would like to see is the pilot stations moved back about at least 6 feet. In my opinion if you cant stand back 10 feet from the runway and land on it you should not be flying jets in the first place. On my home field the pilot stations are back around 10 feet at least and that's a good safety margin.
As far as the event it was very well ran and Frank always does a good job. I still remember he had to jump on Mac Hodges a few years back at top gun because with the crosswind he was getting to close to the crowd. It does not matter who you are if you are flying unsafe Frank is going to put a stop to it. His events are top notch. Also all low passes have to be made over a gravel road about 10 feet north of the runway so that's also another nice buffer zone and allot more then you get at other events.
It was an accident plain and simple. The Pilot is a very good friend of mine and a all around great guy. The only thing I would like to see is the pilot stations moved back about at least 6 feet. In my opinion if you cant stand back 10 feet from the runway and land on it you should not be flying jets in the first place. On my home field the pilot stations are back around 10 feet at least and that's a good safety margin.
As far as the event it was very well ran and Frank always does a good job. I still remember he had to jump on Mac Hodges a few years back at top gun because with the crosswind he was getting to close to the crowd. It does not matter who you are if you are flying unsafe Frank is going to put a stop to it. His events are top notch. Also all low passes have to be made over a gravel road about 10 feet north of the runway so that's also another nice buffer zone and allot more then you get at other events.
Of course the way the AMA document is worded, they're all waiverable. But anytime one waivers from the recommendations, in this case what lawyers would call industry accepted best practices, then the person waiving it assumes a lot more risk.
03-09-2015, 12:26 PM
#231
Not sure why you're so opposed to hearing other views, especially those based in fact, science, current safety best practices from professional military and civilian aviation safety programs, as well as best practices from other industries engaged in high risk activities?
03-09-2015, 04:11 PM
#236
I was accused of being a troll the other day. That term seems to be getting thrown around a lot lately. Maybe I need to know what the definition is. I find it hard to believe that I am a troll considering the number of posts I have made.
I am beginning to think the new definition of a troll is anyone you disagree with.
I am beginning to think the new definition of a troll is anyone you disagree with.
03-09-2015, 04:41 PM
#238
In case anyone out there is wondering, so as to not burden the group, I answered this and the prior question on the same subject via PM. I'll let the people who asked these decide whether or not I'm qualified to comment on aviation safety.
03-09-2015, 04:43 PM
#239
I was accused of being a troll the other day. That term seems to be getting thrown around a lot lately. Maybe I need to know what the definition is. I find it hard to believe that I am a troll considering the number of posts I have made.
I am beginning to think the new definition of a troll is anyone you disagree with.
I am beginning to think the new definition of a troll is anyone you disagree with.
03-09-2015, 05:27 PM
#240
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If you are that qualified and your credentials are that strong you should be willing to disclose that information and not hide behind PM. Your statements have been substantial and you would be getting more support than criticism if people knew who your were.
03-09-2015, 05:30 PM
#241
Speaking of facts you where not their and don't know the facts so stop talking until you get the facts. And really please stop throwing what you do for a career in everyone's face. no one cares. Allot of us do things on full scale aircraft for a living. More rules would not have changed what happened and all of us at the flight line know the risks and none of us are complaining just you are the one that does not know the facts and was not at the flight line or the event. If their is something to learn to make things safer that is one thing but sometimes **** happens and it did and more rules will not fix that.
03-09-2015, 05:33 PM
#242
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Too many pilots seem too willing to lay blame at the feet of the pilot and event organisers, and while being an outside observer can sometimes bring good idea's to the table in preventing accidents of this type in future. Discussing it in the manner that you have choosen and others is being overly negative towards both the event organisers and pilot concerned is counterproductive, you can dress what you say up in any language or format that you like, the net effect of what you have said on your audience is that the majority are not listening to you. A "what if" is not a fact, can not be turned into a fact because it did not happen. It is a supposition.
Insulting people's intellegence will further harm your cause, because an intelligent person knows when to STFU. Just because you wear a nomex flightsuit and have a navy carrier tag line (which by the way is an oxymoron because if you dont succeed at a carrier landing it usually means you are talking from the grave, or at least a hospital bed). Does not make you more of an expert on what happened on this particular occassion than anyone else in this thread.
03-09-2015, 05:36 PM
#243
What some are missing is that like it or not, our hobby (or sport) is getting a lot more attention. At the same time, our models are getting bigger, and / or there are more of them that are bigger and faster. When folks don't plan appropriately, don't enforce rules, or use "hope" as a plan to prevent mishaps, you get events like we're seeing on YouTube and in the media. When we have high profile crashes, and especially when there are injuries, they're going to end up in the media - and we get even more attention. More attention finds even more questionable activities. It's a vicious circle.
I am concerned about what happens to our hobby / sport when the injured party is an innocent 6 year old girl that came to the event with her dad and received horrible burns (or worse) when one of these turbines or other large aircraft crash into the crowd at 100MPH or more. Are we ready for that kind of attention? Are we ready for the attention when her family lawyers find comments on here by the CD saying "accidents happen" or similarly dismissive statements? Are we ready for their lawyers to learn that they waived multiple AMA recommended practices or standoffs? Are we ready for when their family lawyer finds YouTube videos showing AMA violations with event staff standing in the frame? Are we ready for eyewitnesses that testify staff tolerated AMA rule violations? That all points to what accident investigators call "Safety Culture." If your safety culture is poor, then be prepared to get out your checkbook if someone gets hurt. And it doesn't take much at all to blow through $2.5 million in insurance, or even ten times that.
Last edited by franklin_m; 03-09-2015 at 05:59 PM.
03-09-2015, 06:04 PM
#244
THe problem and difficulty I find with your posts stems from the fact that you consistantly post trying to validate your theories, yet you do not fly model jets, or it seems any larger scale model airplanes. You consistantly compare your experience with full scale planes to models, although the basics are the same it would be like a cessna pilot trying to fly an F18. You consistantly refer to lawyers, injuries and what you call facts, and yet you continuously carry on in this thread and others like your voice is the only one that matters.
Too many pilots seem too willing to lay blame at the feet of the pilot and event organisers, and while being an outside observer can sometimes bring good idea's to the table in preventing accidents of this type in future. Discussing it in the manner that you have choosen and others is being overly negative towards both the event organisers and pilot concerned is counterproductive, you can dress what you say up in any language or format that you like, the net effect of what you have said on your audience is that the majority are not listening to you. A "what if" is not a fact, can not be turned into a fact because it did not happen. It is a supposition.
Insulting people's intellegence will further harm your cause, because an intelligent person knows when to STFU. Just because you wear a nomex flightsuit and have a navy carrier tag line (which by the way is an oxymoron because if you dont succeed at a carrier landing it usually means you are talking from the grave, or at least a hospital bed). Does not make you more of an expert on what happened on this particular occassion than anyone else in this thread.
Too many pilots seem too willing to lay blame at the feet of the pilot and event organisers, and while being an outside observer can sometimes bring good idea's to the table in preventing accidents of this type in future. Discussing it in the manner that you have choosen and others is being overly negative towards both the event organisers and pilot concerned is counterproductive, you can dress what you say up in any language or format that you like, the net effect of what you have said on your audience is that the majority are not listening to you. A "what if" is not a fact, can not be turned into a fact because it did not happen. It is a supposition.
Insulting people's intellegence will further harm your cause, because an intelligent person knows when to STFU. Just because you wear a nomex flightsuit and have a navy carrier tag line (which by the way is an oxymoron because if you dont succeed at a carrier landing it usually means you are talking from the grave, or at least a hospital bed). Does not make you more of an expert on what happened on this particular occassion than anyone else in this thread.
03-09-2015, 06:26 PM
#246
Speaking of facts you where not their and don't know the facts so stop talking until you get the facts. And really please stop throwing what you do for a career in everyone's face. no one cares. Allot of us do things on full scale aircraft for a living. More rules would not have changed what happened and all of us at the flight line know the risks and none of us are complaining just you are the one that does not know the facts and was not at the flight line or the event. If their is something to learn to make things safer that is one thing but sometimes **** happens and it did and more rules will not fix that.
03-09-2015, 06:59 PM
#247
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Steve has done an admirable job of sizing it up for us. Trolls tend to offer their remarks in a manner consistent with the mountain shown in his figure. You may notice the small hill located near the bottom of the figure...where the facts are located and Troll remarks are kept to a minimum. Not shown on the figure is the other "Troll trait" of speaking in "half truth" which was virtually unknown before the remark "it depends on what the meaning of 'it' is". While Trolls have existed ever since Al invented the internet we have all seen an increase in "trolling" over the past few years which may be tied to a higher unemployment rate for younger people combined with a higher number of people retiring or retired who also have additional free time to spend on the net. After the first three sentences of this post it becomes a Troll...start with a legitimate personal point of view and then transition to half truths, most or all of which are irrelevant to the actual OP's statement. Trolls seldom read the entire thread they are posting about, which is one of their more obvious signatures. Professional Trolls are paid by either a governmental agency or private enterprise and engage in arguments favorable to their job security, promotion, and or ideology...and become dogmatic when challenged. This is of course why so many tire of these forums where so much of the conversation is dominated by so few. The world can only hope that this activity keeps them under their rock and off the streets where one would hope they are more agreeable, but probably not. It's back to prepping some cores for me...have fun with your comments.