Crash today at Florida Jets.
#251
The criticism doesn't bother me; I provide the credentials privately because I want people to see that anyone who disagrees with the "party line" draws fire. There's a lot of good input here from people, many without credentials but with common sense and an open mind, but they get flamed.
What some are missing is that like it or not, our hobby (or sport) is getting a lot more attention. At the same time, our models are getting bigger, and / or there are more of them that are bigger and faster. When folks don't plan appropriately, don't enforce rules, or use "hope" as a plan to prevent mishaps, you get events like we're seeing on YouTube and in the media. When we have high profile crashes, and especially when there are injuries, they're going to end up in the media - and we get even more attention. More attention finds even more questionable activities. It's a vicious circle.
I am concerned about what happens to our hobby / sport when the injured party is an innocent 6 year old girl that came to the event with her dad and received horrible burns (or worse) when one of these turbines or other large aircraft crash into the crowd at 100MPH or more. Are we ready for that kind of attention? Are we ready for the attention when her family lawyers find comments on here by the CD saying "accidents happen" or similarly dismissive statements? Are we ready for their lawyers to learn that they waived multiple AMA recommended practices or standoffs? Are we ready for when their family lawyer finds YouTube videos showing AMA violations with event staff standing in the frame? Are we ready for eyewitnesses that testify staff tolerated AMA rule violations? That all points to what accident investigators call "Safety Culture." If your safety culture is poor, then be prepared to get out your checkbook if someone gets hurt. And it doesn't take much at all to blow through $2.5 million in insurance, or even ten times that.
What some are missing is that like it or not, our hobby (or sport) is getting a lot more attention. At the same time, our models are getting bigger, and / or there are more of them that are bigger and faster. When folks don't plan appropriately, don't enforce rules, or use "hope" as a plan to prevent mishaps, you get events like we're seeing on YouTube and in the media. When we have high profile crashes, and especially when there are injuries, they're going to end up in the media - and we get even more attention. More attention finds even more questionable activities. It's a vicious circle.
I am concerned about what happens to our hobby / sport when the injured party is an innocent 6 year old girl that came to the event with her dad and received horrible burns (or worse) when one of these turbines or other large aircraft crash into the crowd at 100MPH or more. Are we ready for that kind of attention? Are we ready for the attention when her family lawyers find comments on here by the CD saying "accidents happen" or similarly dismissive statements? Are we ready for their lawyers to learn that they waived multiple AMA recommended practices or standoffs? Are we ready for when their family lawyer finds YouTube videos showing AMA violations with event staff standing in the frame? Are we ready for eyewitnesses that testify staff tolerated AMA rule violations? That all points to what accident investigators call "Safety Culture." If your safety culture is poor, then be prepared to get out your checkbook if someone gets hurt. And it doesn't take much at all to blow through $2.5 million in insurance, or even ten times that.
#252
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Who is this Al you speak of? The WWW was of course invented by a very modest Englishman, Sir Tim Berners Lee who placed it all in the Public domain and did not patent it. The first web site was built in Europe at Cern Geneva.
john
john
#253
My Feedback: (27)
Who is this Al you speak of? The WWW was of course invented by a very modest Englishman, Sir Tim Berners Lee who placed it all in the Public domain and did not patent it. The first web site was built in Europe at Cern Geneva.
john
john
The first message was sent over the ARPANET from computer science Professor Leonard Kleinrock's laboratory at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) to the second network node at Stanford Research Institute (SRI).
I would argue that the invention of ethernet & the TCP/IP protocol are the true inventors of the the internet as we know it today, because without either of these we wouldn't be reading this - literally.
This said, the "Al" being referred to would be none other than the global warmening hoax loving, William Jefferson Clintax loving ex-vice president of our United States Mr. Owl Gore, who once unabashedly proclaimed hisself as the sole inventor of the internet, right in front of the entire nation. He is chastised about this as frequently as the situation allows as a comedic jab at his (demonstrably) low IQ.
In short - It was a joke.
#254
I work two weeks a month, what I do with my off time is my business.
According to AMA data, insurance claim amounts are up 228 percent from 2013 to 2014. If we're as safe as some on this forum contend, they I'm wondering why is our CBO spending so much to settle claims?
If we're so good, then why did the AMA EVP write a full page article asking clubs to put focus on following AMA rules? And pointing out that doing so would reduce the self-insured payments they make to settle claims?
The reason is simple: Many are not so good at following AMA rules as they would lead us to believe here..and it's costing all of us. Wouldn't it be nice if the $500K that AMA spent just on claims (in addition to over $800K in insurance premiums) could be spent on flying site development instead? $1.3 million buys a lot of land and a lot of airspace easements. Better behavior and fewer claims reduce premiums. At least based on claim amounts, it appears we're headed the opposite direction -- and more YouTube / media videos of scary crashes only make it worse.
According to AMA data, insurance claim amounts are up 228 percent from 2013 to 2014. If we're as safe as some on this forum contend, they I'm wondering why is our CBO spending so much to settle claims?
If we're so good, then why did the AMA EVP write a full page article asking clubs to put focus on following AMA rules? And pointing out that doing so would reduce the self-insured payments they make to settle claims?
The reason is simple: Many are not so good at following AMA rules as they would lead us to believe here..and it's costing all of us. Wouldn't it be nice if the $500K that AMA spent just on claims (in addition to over $800K in insurance premiums) could be spent on flying site development instead? $1.3 million buys a lot of land and a lot of airspace easements. Better behavior and fewer claims reduce premiums. At least based on claim amounts, it appears we're headed the opposite direction -- and more YouTube / media videos of scary crashes only make it worse.
Last edited by franklin_m; 03-10-2015 at 04:06 AM.
#255
My Feedback: (9)
All AMA rules where followed at this event. It appears that you are talking about incidents in general so you should make a new thread in the general forum where I wont look at what you type.
I work two weeks a month, what I do with my off time is my business.
According to AMA data, insurance claim amounts are up 228 percent from 2013 to 2014. If we're as safe as some on this forum contend, they I'm wondering why is our CBO spending so much to settle claims?
If we're so good, then why did the AMA EVP write a full page article asking clubs to put focus on following AMA rules? And pointing out that doing so would reduce the self-insured payments they make to settle claims?
The reason is simple: Many are not so good at following AMA rules as they would lead us to believe here..and it's costing all of us. Wouldn't it be nice if the $500K that AMA spent just on claims (in addition to over $800K in insurance premiums) could be spent on flying site development instead? $1.3 million buys a lot of land and a lot of airspace easements. Better behavior and fewer claims reduce premiums. At least based on claim amounts, it appears we're headed the opposite direction -- and more YouTube / media videos of scary crashes only make it worse.
According to AMA data, insurance claim amounts are up 228 percent from 2013 to 2014. If we're as safe as some on this forum contend, they I'm wondering why is our CBO spending so much to settle claims?
If we're so good, then why did the AMA EVP write a full page article asking clubs to put focus on following AMA rules? And pointing out that doing so would reduce the self-insured payments they make to settle claims?
The reason is simple: Many are not so good at following AMA rules as they would lead us to believe here..and it's costing all of us. Wouldn't it be nice if the $500K that AMA spent just on claims (in addition to over $800K in insurance premiums) could be spent on flying site development instead? $1.3 million buys a lot of land and a lot of airspace easements. Better behavior and fewer claims reduce premiums. At least based on claim amounts, it appears we're headed the opposite direction -- and more YouTube / media videos of scary crashes only make it worse.
#258
#259
So are you saying the standoffs were all in accordance with the AMA document? How did someone get hit if there were barriers in place?
#264
Was there 15 feet between the barriers and safety line per AMA 706 recommendations? Was there an additional 10 feet between the barriers and the pilot line per that same document?
Last edited by franklin_m; 03-10-2015 at 07:07 AM.
#265
Based on this video, it appears the pilots were standing just a few feet from the runway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S97YUacNsmk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S97YUacNsmk
#266
Based on this video, it appears the pilots were standing just a few feet from the runway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S97YUacNsmk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S97YUacNsmk
#267
My Feedback: (38)
Franklin and Ace both of your Points Here are invalid about the barriers, the fact is there was an accident and it happened to go in on the runway . Having the pilots stand 25 feet behind the actual edge of the runway behind a barrier , that doesn't garauntee safety. The plane could have went down in the pitts, or perhaps the parking lot, it could have went down a mile away there is no telling what will happen when an accident occurs you cannot predict these things if you could they would not be called accidents. I'm all for safety and protecting this hobby, but the the responses you guys are spitting out or just Senseless mush based on what If's , you keep citing increases in what you call facts, here are a few more facts for you AMA membership is at an all-time high and as with any activity that happens on this planet the more people that do it the more the risk something can happen is. You two are obviously on the same page, maybe we should mandate all pilots must operate within sealed capsule bubbles, So we're safe and the public can watch our hobby via a remote bunker on a televised system and then we can all be safe. this thread has completely taken off and ran away and it is Spurred on by the nonsense of you two, I'm going to do what I should have done about three pages ago and wipe my hands of this post because the truth of the matter is accidents happen, you cannot prevent them all and you guys seem to think opposite maybe you two should get a room.
#268
My Feedback: (24)
The text in the document says the following:
Locations - Distance Factor (measured perpendicular from edge at runway safety line)
Runway edge is the base line - Safety line or base line
Pilot line - 0-25 feet from safety line
Pit line - 25 feet or more from safety line
Spectator line - 65 feet or more from safety line
Parking lot - 80 feet or more from safety line
Based on the pictures and videos, I would say that the pilot line is 6-10' from the safety line and the pits is close to, or further than the recommended 25'. The spectator line *might* be closer than 65', but there does appear to be a 6' tall chain link fence between the spectators and the pits/flight line, at least for most of the length, and that is something that does not exist at most RC flying fields.
I would agree with what Gunradd posted earlier that the pilot's stations look line they could be moved back a bit, and that might help. As for the 10' between the barriers and the pilot's line, I don't know where you get that from, but I've never been to any flying field anywhere where the pilots stand 10' behind the barrier...
Bob
ps. the document also contains the following statement:
"These suggestions are not mandatory requirements, and compliance with these suggestions does not, of course, guarantee that no accident will occur."
Last edited by rhklenke; 03-10-2015 at 07:54 AM.
#269
Senior Member
My Feedback: (21)
I was at FJ last year and flew quite a bit. The flight line is tight to the runway but to me its only a concern if there is an errant landing. But that is a hazard at any field. Because it is close all flying is done on the far side of the runway. No one does flybys down the runway.
I was at FJ last week only as a spectator due to limited time. The plane was in a loop and was out on the other side of the runway. During the loop the the plane appeared to snap and then corkscrewed toward the flight line, hitting the runway where the fuel flashed into the flight line.
Now tell me that you have never had a plane snap out of a loop and wound up going into some unintentioned direction. The pilot did not do this on purpose. I saw the pilot being consoled by several people as he was extremely upset to the point of collapse at what had happened. Hopefully he will meet with the other pilots who lost their planes when this happened and an amicable solution will be reached over resolving the loss. The injured gent with the burns will be taken of I am sure.
I didn't see it for myself but I understand the injured gent returned the field that afternoon.
To me that can only mean two things, One that he came back to seek restitution and assign blame. Or two, he wanted to assure every one he was ok and wanted to continue to enjoy FJ. I can not imagine that he will not be taken care off.
FJ has some of the premier turbine pilots in attendance, these are guys with tons of experience. If these pilots thought it was unsafe I am sure words would be said. If their is a pilot on the flight line flying in an unsafe manner he would be asked to clean up his act. No one wants to get hurt, no one wants to hurt anyone. Thje event organizers will make some changes to enhance safety in the future.
Unless we all fly from Kevlar bubbles with our models 500 ft from the flight line there is noway to insure 100% safety. At anytime our planes can become an unguided missile. I hate it for all involved but I hate it worse that some people with no idea of what happened make it a "The sky is falling" incident. It needs to be looked at, And steps taken to fix it if things are identified that need fixing. Smart people are looking at it. Let them do their work.
I was at FJ last week only as a spectator due to limited time. The plane was in a loop and was out on the other side of the runway. During the loop the the plane appeared to snap and then corkscrewed toward the flight line, hitting the runway where the fuel flashed into the flight line.
Now tell me that you have never had a plane snap out of a loop and wound up going into some unintentioned direction. The pilot did not do this on purpose. I saw the pilot being consoled by several people as he was extremely upset to the point of collapse at what had happened. Hopefully he will meet with the other pilots who lost their planes when this happened and an amicable solution will be reached over resolving the loss. The injured gent with the burns will be taken of I am sure.
I didn't see it for myself but I understand the injured gent returned the field that afternoon.
To me that can only mean two things, One that he came back to seek restitution and assign blame. Or two, he wanted to assure every one he was ok and wanted to continue to enjoy FJ. I can not imagine that he will not be taken care off.
FJ has some of the premier turbine pilots in attendance, these are guys with tons of experience. If these pilots thought it was unsafe I am sure words would be said. If their is a pilot on the flight line flying in an unsafe manner he would be asked to clean up his act. No one wants to get hurt, no one wants to hurt anyone. Thje event organizers will make some changes to enhance safety in the future.
Unless we all fly from Kevlar bubbles with our models 500 ft from the flight line there is noway to insure 100% safety. At anytime our planes can become an unguided missile. I hate it for all involved but I hate it worse that some people with no idea of what happened make it a "The sky is falling" incident. It needs to be looked at, And steps taken to fix it if things are identified that need fixing. Smart people are looking at it. Let them do their work.
Last edited by zonker123; 03-10-2015 at 07:56 AM. Reason: spelling
#270
Franklin and Ace both of your Points Here are invalid about the barriers, the fact is there was an accident and it happened to go in on the runway . Having the pilots stand 25 feet behind the actual edge of the runway behind a barrier , that doesn't garauntee safety. The plane could have went down in the pitts, or perhaps the parking lot, it could have went down a mile away there is no telling what will happen when an accident occurs you cannot predict these things if you could they would not be called accidents. I'm all for safety and protecting this hobby, but the the responses you guys are spitting out or just Senseless mush based on what If's , you keep citing increases in what you call facts, here are a few more facts for you AMA membership is at an all-time high and as with any activity that happens on this planet the more people that do it the more the risk something can happen is. You two are obviously on the same page, maybe we should mandate all pilots must operate within sealed capsule bubbles, So we're safe and the public can watch our hobby via a remote bunker on a televised system and then we can all be safe. this thread has completely taken off and ran away and it is Spurred on by the nonsense of you two, I'm going to do what I should have done about three pages ago and wipe my hands of this post because the truth of the matter is accidents happen, you cannot prevent them all and you guys seem to think opposite maybe you two should get a room.
So are you saying that a single digit percentage increase in members drives a triple digit percentage increase in medical claim money? Wow. That's some scary math as we look to raise membership even further!
#271
My Feedback: (16)
Franklin and Ace both of your Points Here are invalid about the barriers, the fact is there was an accident and it happened to go in on the runway . Having the pilots stand 25 feet behind the actual edge of the runway behind a barrier , that doesn't garauntee safety. The plane could have went down in the pitts, or perhaps the parking lot, it could have went down a mile away there is no telling what will happen when an accident occurs you cannot predict these things if you could they would not be called accidents. I'm all for safety and protecting this hobby, but the the responses you guys are spitting out or just Senseless mush based on what If's , you keep citing increases in what you call facts, here are a few more facts for you AMA membership is at an all-time high and as with any activity that happens on this planet the more people that do it the more the risk something can happen is. You two are obviously on the same page, maybe we should mandate all pilots must operate within sealed capsule bubbles, So we're safe and the public can watch our hobby via a remote bunker on a televised system and then we can all be safe. this thread has completely taken off and ran away and it is Spurred on by the nonsense of you two, I'm going to do what I should have done about three pages ago and wipe my hands of this post because the truth of the matter is accidents happen, you cannot prevent them all and you guys seem to think opposite maybe you two should get a room.
Larry/Instructor
Last edited by Instructor; 03-10-2015 at 08:17 AM.
#272
My Feedback: (24)
[snip]
I didn't see it for myself but I understand the injured gent returned the field that afternoon.
To me that can only mean two things, One that he came back to seek restitution and assign blame. Or two, he wanted to assure every one he was ok and wanted to continue to enjoy FJ. I can not imagine that he will not be taken care off.
[snip]
I didn't see it for myself but I understand the injured gent returned the field that afternoon.
To me that can only mean two things, One that he came back to seek restitution and assign blame. Or two, he wanted to assure every one he was ok and wanted to continue to enjoy FJ. I can not imagine that he will not be taken care off.
[snip]
As far as the comments about AMA insurance claims are concerned, another "doom and gloom" picture about safety is being painted without all of the facts. What exactly are these insurance claims for, and who is making them? Ask anyone in charge of risk management/insurance at any public facility and they will tell you that 90% of their claims for for sprained ankles or the like. I don't know about your AMA club, but at mine, I can't remember the last time somebody was hurt, outside of a modeler getting hit by the prop of their own model, and even those are rare. I have *never* personally known an AMA member who has filed an insurance claim against the AMA. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but I think that occurrence is really rare...
Bob
#273
My Feedback: (25)
Franklin, just curious, do you have a turbine waiver?
I don't like to stand too far from the edge of the runway because it makes it harder to set up for a landing in my opinion. In any event I would be dead right now if I was standing back as you say, I had a giant scale biplane crash at full throttle into the ground just behind me when I was flying one time. An old guy got confused when he was flying and flew straight into the ground, I kept myself together and landed my P-51 safely. 5' or 10' either way is not going to make a difference, if I was following the AMA recommended guidelines I would probably be dead.
I don't like to stand too far from the edge of the runway because it makes it harder to set up for a landing in my opinion. In any event I would be dead right now if I was standing back as you say, I had a giant scale biplane crash at full throttle into the ground just behind me when I was flying one time. An old guy got confused when he was flying and flew straight into the ground, I kept myself together and landed my P-51 safely. 5' or 10' either way is not going to make a difference, if I was following the AMA recommended guidelines I would probably be dead.
#274
My Feedback: (21)
At the events I've participated in that included jets and other high performance aircraft, including heavy and fast warbirds, a main cause of concern has been pilots flying who are not qualified to be flying that type of aircraft, especially in events with large crowds. It's one thing for a pilot or helper to be injured, they know the risks, quite another for some one who showed up as a spectator
to be injured! Don't know if the individual in this case was qualified, just have seen many jets crash where the person had no business flying something that fast. As cd's of events in our area for many years we have always checked for the the waivers, but when you see someone who can't handle a fast sport plane show up with a jet waiver it makes you wonder what use the waivers are.
I belonged to NMPRA for many years and flew all forms of racing planes including Formula 1 and never felt as unsafe as I have felt at some of the fly-in events I have attended.
to be injured! Don't know if the individual in this case was qualified, just have seen many jets crash where the person had no business flying something that fast. As cd's of events in our area for many years we have always checked for the the waivers, but when you see someone who can't handle a fast sport plane show up with a jet waiver it makes you wonder what use the waivers are.
I belonged to NMPRA for many years and flew all forms of racing planes including Formula 1 and never felt as unsafe as I have felt at some of the fly-in events I have attended.
#275
Franklin and Ace both of your Points Here are invalid about the barriers, the fact is there was an accident and it happened to go in on the runway . Having the pilots stand 25 feet behind the actual edge of the runway behind a barrier , that doesn't garauntee safety. The plane could have went down in the pitts, or perhaps the parking lot, it could have went down a mile away there is no telling what will happen when an accident occurs you cannot predict these things if you could they would not be called accidents. I'm all for safety and protecting this hobby, but the the responses you guys are spitting out or just Senseless mush based on what If's , you keep citing increases in what you call facts, here are a few more facts for you AMA membership is at an all-time high and as with any activity that happens on this planet the more people that do it the more the risk something can happen is. You two are obviously on the same page, maybe we should mandate all pilots must operate within sealed capsule bubbles, So we're safe and the public can watch our hobby via a remote bunker on a televised system and then we can all be safe. this thread has completely taken off and ran away and it is Spurred on by the nonsense of you two, I'm going to do what I should have done about three pages ago and wipe my hands of this post because the truth of the matter is accidents happen, you cannot prevent them all and you guys seem to think opposite maybe you two should get a room.
It's all about risk mitigation.
http://www.mitre.org/publications/sy...ess-monitoring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management