westwind two

My Feedback: (1)

Well it is just not jets, he kept the Hodges B-29 crash going for a long time and he has different names......what a ego to try to impress us with knowledge that have known about with risk factors of model aircraft. I will continue to enjoy this hobby as I have done for the past 50 years and the events help to keep this hobby alive. I am not sure how long this hobby would exist without events and contests. For us as a family that travels together. "The events are nice but the friendships and closeness of this community are great " Pete and I have CD'ed Warbirds Over Delaware for 18 years and the ONLY reason we continue is because the pilots show up and enjoy the event....That is a good feeling.

Dave Malchione

cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

It was an unfortunate accident.apparently someone has a grudge with this pilot but it doesn't belong here.I have worked flightless in the past.sometimes stuff happens.determine what happened improve it if it's possible and move on.accidents will happen and hopefully that's all it was.if the waivers are signed off he apparently determined proficiency
.it's not the place of us to pass judgement.flying rc can be dangerous at some point.

larry@coyotenet

My Feedback: (21)

Same bs from the same guys who saw nothing wrong with the setup at WOD and that horrific accident. Get your heads out of the sand, take some pro active steps to prevent accidents and stop blaming the messenger! There should never, NEVER, be injuries to spectators at an event. If you are willing to blow accidents off as "things happen" I sure don't want to attend any of your events and don"t particularly want you attending ours! Jet waivers are a joke. I've watched a guy with a jet waiver crash into a camping area two years in a row cause the plane got away from him. Pure luck no one was hurt. As a CD I've only had to set down one jet guy at a warbird event. He was in so far over his head it was almost funny. It wouldn't have been so funny if he had crashed into our spectator area. (which is over 100 feet from the flight line by the way)
For those of you who don't know Sid Gates he not only has been in the hobby a long time but he was the manufacturer of Royal Radios which were extremely popular in our area for years,
I used to race 1/4 midget with him and his son, his pedigree is impeccable. Most of you guys complaining about his comments could only wish you knew half as much as he does.
Larry

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

No one here has ever disagreed with this (in bold) statement. Merely pointing out that it is absolutely impossible, no matter how many rules, no matter where the spectators are located, and no matter how careful an event director is, to totally keep spectators immune to a freak accident. We all do our best and that's all anyone can expect.

As for Sid...he is the only one who has posted on this thread (who I believe hadn't hadn't taken all the factors into account), that has the respect of most of us here. Fine modeler is Sid...and his prototype F-94C is a work of art.

Please calm down,Larry. One can never speak for everybody but all the jet guys I know (a lot) are very stringent with our safety procedures.

Bob

larry@coyotenet

My Feedback: (21)

Thanks for your reply, I too know some very good jet pilots who take safety very seriously. I've been a CD since 1975, every thing from Formula 1 to club fun fly. As a CD you must first and foremost think of safety at your events.
My problem with some of the replies is the attitude that "accidents happen" ,don't make waves, and stop attacking my rice bowl. Accidents do happen, but while the participants mostly know the dangers the spectators don't. No event should put spectators in danger. As an event organizer that should be #1. The vast majority of events I have attended do meet that standard.
Some I will no longer go too because I felt like I was in a shooting gallery. When planes crash into the pits on takeoff because the field is cramped or people are injured because they are too close to the flight line something needs to be changed. Sticking your head in the sand and complaining about the messenger is not the right way to handle the situation. I am sure Mr. Tiano will make some changes next year so that accident won't happen again. As someone said, hope and luck are not valid plans.
As for the jet waivers, you and I know that they get given to people who have no business flying jets, good ole boys and friends. That's just the way it is. I know at least three flyers who are nice guys but who I wouldn't let fly in a quickie 500 race who have their waivers, and I know some very good jet guys who think they are bullet proof. As responsible pilots you and your friends should know who really shouldn't be flying at a big event with lots of spectators. I fly warbirds and when hosting an event I know who needs some special looking after and who isn't competent to fly a 40 lb war bird in front of a crowd and I act accordingly. How many times at an event have you told your buddies "keep your eye on this guy" or something similar.
Like I said I don't know the pilot involved at Florida Jets, I don't know what caused the crash, all I know is the results and the following publicity it got. As a CD it would be foolish of me to not take a lesson from that accident.
Larry

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

I don't think that any of the responders on this thread are burying their heads in the sand. Everyone involved in these types of incidents takes them very seriously and thinks long and hard about what happened and what could be done better next time. *Especially* those who put their time, money, and personal reputations on the line to organize these events.

At the same time, the "chicken little - the sky is falling and we need more rules or the "powers-that-be" are going to step in" attitude is not only not helpful, it obviously raises the ire of the people on here who *ARE* serious modelers who love and protect this hobby and put much of their own blood sweat and tears into supporting it by organizing/supporting these events. If those who "stir the pot" would actually get involved and help the efforts of these "10%'ers" and/or offer constructive suggestions instead of posting comments insinuating that they are irresponsible, stupid, or just don't care (none of which are true), then these back-and-forth horse beatings might just turn into something useful.

As far as the comment "Jet waivers are a joke" is concerned, I disagree. Yes, the quality of the certification process is up to the persons who sign off on it, and I'm sure that it varies, but turbine jet flying is the *only* segment of the RC aircraft hobby that has *any* barrier to entry. Anyone off the street can buy any sort of fast, large, powerful prop model and go fly it at their AMA club with no sort of quality control at all - except maybe comments from the other club members after the fact, and we all know how that often goes over. At least with a turbine waiver, a person has to step up and be ready to be judged before they can take off into the blue with a turbine.

I've been flying RC, both recreationally and professionally, for some 40 years or so. I'm a pretty good stick, compared to the average RC flyer. Yet I aspire to be as good as the *average* flyer I meet at a jet meet, and the best ones there are the best in the business. I'm not too worried about the flying skills of the average jet flyer...

Bob

westwind two

My Feedback: (1)

As Bob said calm down Larry. Safety is always number one for any CD running a event. No need to attack us again.

as for bs Larry.......just calm down

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

And you wont if you keep trolling like this!

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

It would behoove the RC turbine community to make sure you are policing yourselves properly, as there is no doubt, with the watchful eye of big brother watching you, your future could be at stake otherwise. Having FAA officials at the Warbirds over the rockies several years ago, one was quoted as saying, "we are here to keep an eye on those" as he pointed to a turbine model. Just a word to the wise.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

Do you notice what segment of Radio Control has the FAA ACTUALLY concerned at present? Multi-rotor models...which is endangering the existence of our hobby like nothing else previously.

We, the real modelers, know how to police ourselves. The FAA is aware of this.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Oh yes, We have plenty of threads on the multi rotor issue.

I mean no disrespect to any turbine fliers either by my comments, just so you guys know. But, if the turbine waiver is an area of weakness, you can always get stricter guidelines. I do remember a time when you only had to display proficiency with a high performance model. Which could have been prop driven, correct? But the waiver has been made more difficult to get since that time, I believe. I do not have one I will admit.

Being proactive as a group can go a long way I believe. When the RCCA, (the combat SIG) was pushing to get rules in the AMA rule book, to have the events at the NATS, we mandated the use of helmets. Now, IMO, we did not really need helmets. But it was an impression thing. Not saying it made THE difference, but it did not hurt either.

I am not even going to sit here and say that you guys have a problem, as the jets I see are always very reliable and safe. Not sure I have ever seen a crash honestly, and I fly at a lot of events. Maybe 1.

But if the waiver is a weak area, that could be stricter to weed out some that may not be capable, it might not be a bad idea to look at it again.

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

================================================== ================================================== ===========================
Larry - I really appreciate your defense but my feelings are not hurt. I felt the questions were respectful. I have learned over the years that the safety tolerance level varies a lot from one individual to another. I know my personal safety tolerance is pretty low. A few years ago I had a conversation with a local turbine pilot about his low passes over the runway at high speed but did not influence him. The fact was he endangered himself as much as any body because most of us made sure we had adequate cover and distance from the runway.

I attended Florida Jets twice when it was held at Deland, Fl. and felt the layout was "safe'. I have not been to the new location so have no first hand opinion.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

Hey, Vert!

Nice post. You and Sid both have been reasonable.

Please realize, though, that some of the posts in this thread that give one the impression that we have "our heads in the sand" are merely defensive reactions to the kind of things we've seen from tyros like "franklin" and Ace".

And...HAVE A NICE DAY!

Bob

Boomerang1

Of course, sometimes the view from the 'outside' can see things that those on the 'inside' have become blinded to through familiarity.

Will those recommendations be taken seriously or even considered because you are new to the jets forum or (even worse) have only one post?

I think you know what I'm saying .........

Unfortunately that seems to be the way of life everywhere, not just the jet forum. It's easy to see why noobs get frustrated.


Welcome to jets, hope your new interest leads to involvement!

This accident, & I guess the Mac Hodges crash, are the accidents we all knew would happen eventually. It's fortunate that
the outcomes of both of these accidents were not too serious. The difficult question is what can we do to prevent accidents
like this in the future? Fact is we cannot make any activity 100% safe. When you think about it driving your car if you, or the
guy coming the other way, is inattentive & moves the steering wheel just one inch the wrong way, it could be all over for both
of you. Yet, every day, we get in the car & off we go.

Those safety zealots will want to see 'something' done following accidents & we will do something to give them 'something' to see.

Life goes on .......



John.

RC Larry-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Well said Bob,,,,,,

stevekott

A month ago we did the Monster Jet Jam in Coachella, CA.

Guess What, the event had been scheduled for some time and Pres Obama needed to play golf in Palm Springs which put the flying site within a TFR (temporary flight restriction) in effect during the event.

Both the FAA and the Secret Service came out to the event, surveyed the setup and pilots and gave us a waiver to fly in the TFR until 3:00pm. Obama landed in Air Force One clearly visible from the flight line at around 11:00am.

Don't give the FAA a bad rap. A lot of them are full scale and RC pilots and a lot of them like Turbine Jets. Who doesn't!

Like everyone else on here I've been in this hobby a long time, since 1976. I personally have not seen anyone or heard of anyone I know ever getting hurt from a turbine incident. Certainly I've seen a lot of incidents.

Turbine pilots are safer than most. They are flying around "investments" ($5000-$20,000). I do not think that there is another group of RC pilots that is more conscientious about build quality and dependability. And I do not think there is another group of RC pilots that is more concerned about flying skills and safety.

You can't say the same for Carbon Fiber Bladed Helicopters and Carbon Fiber Props. I have personally seen serious injury from them.

So take all this phony "In the interest of Safety" soap-boxing to a different forum. You are just irritating a great "safe" bunch of guys.

jofunk

Sidgates,

What you are doing with the F-94 C is the true heart and soul of model aviation. It looks like you did your best to design and build it right. Don't let anything discourage you from test flying it and proving it. Once it is proven, it will be great to see it at the shows. Beautiful work.

Joe Felonk

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

+1

mackeyjones

What a lot of people seemed to had missed or ignored is what actually happened,.If they are going to argue their cause, at least have the facts right. At one time or another we all make a mistake or over estimate our abilities, but for the most part jet flyers, or giant scale pilots are a lot more conscious of safety, because they have a lot more money invested in their aircraft.

I personally dont think safety issues where being ignored, just Franklin_M and Ace, who seem to come across as the same person, and if you have to go to the extreme of backing yourself up with yourself on another account something isnt right.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, you are correct about the quality of the planes and piloting in general. My club hosts 2 Jet rallies a year, and the planes are as high a quality as you will see anywhere. I do agree that the price tag has a tendency to inherently weed out the problem children.

I think that the focus of this thread may be off a little. In that I mean it is not a turbine issue, but maybe more of a large model airplane event issue. There seem to be more and more of these events every summer. I would not say that Mac Hodges is not a qualified pilot to fly in front of crowds, but I can promise you that they are many pilots that fly at some of these events that are not. My club hosted the Warbirds over the Rockies for 8 years. Yes, the vast majority were great pilots and models. But there was alway a few that did not belong on the flight line. Not sure there is much resolution for that, other than a keen eye by the CD or flight line officer.

And yes, all you have to do is youtube helicopter event. Those guys are haphazard at best. Tons of crashes and airframes blowing apart. They almost celebrate it.

Art ARRO

My Feedback: (5)

All non-Turbine Waiver Holders,
I advise you to go to the AMA website at : www.modelaircarft.org and click the " Documents" section. Scroll down to the 13 pertinent AMA documents concerning model gas turbines and open/download AMA Doc-510-A- Safety Regulations for Model Gas Turbines. Note that these are regulations and not "guidelines" which must be followed for the safe operation of model turbines. This regulation has been in effect since April 2011and preceded by numerous earlier editions. Document 510-D describes the requirements for obtaining a turbine waiver for fixed wing model aircraft. No where does it state that the model landing must be within a wingspan of the centerline only "completed on the runway".

I am an AMA CD with a Fixed Wing Waiver since 2006 and have conducted numerous qualifications during this period. A bit of history for this waiver process once required Ground School Training-specific to the brand of turbine that you intend to operate, followed by a formal written exam-essay-type questions, graded by the AMA with a pass/fail result. Only after this you could perform a Flight Qualification and the results had to be notarized before submission to AMA HQ. Also, there was a currency requirement of completion of 20 turbine flights within a 24 month period for waiver renewal. These requirements have been amended over the years to the current version dated April 2011. I take the turbine waiver process very seriously as do most, if not all, AMA-waivered CDs. We are open to any improvements, especially if they improve the safety of model turbine operations.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA 2070- Leader Member and Fixed Wing Turbine CD

cbdane

Well, there you go. Generalizations on all sides.

AMA L345702 - Fixed (I was present for the Florida 15 crash) and rotary turbine waiver holder.

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

================================================== ===========================================
Joe - Thanks for your comments. I have scratch built a lot of models over the years but this is my first composite and first scratch turbine jet. I am not worried about the wing or fuse construction but I hope my testing will prove I have no flutter problems. Jet speed is a whole different set of problems I have not faced before. Weight dry will be approx. 21lbs.

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Well said. Thanks for speaking up Larry. Glad to see there are others who feel the same way.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

You realize you're quoting the original event that triggered this thread several years ago, and not what happened last week?