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Crash today at Florida Jets.

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Crash today at Florida Jets.

Old 03-13-2015, 01:26 PM
  #376  
rjbob
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
I don't see even a little humor in the thought of a 50 pound or heavier item traveling at up to 200 mph toward people.
I am going to write this very slowly so maybe you can understand it...

The intended humor was because of a post he authored 8 years ago. Very few of us, of course, will remember an 8 year old post so I was being intentionally facetious. He read the old post and innocently believed a post he authored a couple of days ago had been altered/edited.

I have been a professional pilot for over 40 years. I have flown over 100 types of aircraft. I am extremely safety conscious. I don't accuse jet event CDs of overlooking safety practices and I don't accuse model aviation pilots of "having their heads in the sand" merely because they point out that it is impossible prevent some accidents, some of the time. Ever hear of the Blue Angels crashing?

I am aware of your impressive (not being sarcastic here) credentials, but you should know better than to second guess the safety of an event from over 1,000 miles away.

Bob
Old 03-13-2015, 02:17 PM
  #377  
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Originally Posted by gunradd
At topgun last year a guy was told to land immediately for violating the dead line.
So if a guy violated the dead line, and in these other cases where turbine waiver holders have said that the CDs sat people down for infractions, are you saying that these same CD's fully complied with paragraph 24 of the SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT POWERED BY GAS TURBINES and supplied "a written report to the AMA describing the infraction(s)" and also that they "disqualif[ied] the participant from further flights during the event"? If they did, doesn't it seem a bit odd that there's not a single entry on the suspended / revoked listing? Out of 1800+ waiver holders?
Old 03-13-2015, 02:25 PM
  #378  
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One thing you will never see in professional mishap investigations, military or civilian, is a comment that "accidents happen." While grated those often involve more direct risk to life and limb, I'd argue the event of the past weekend could have easily turned out quite differently.

Additionally, there is never any hesitation to call out pilot errors, decision making errors, or safety management system errors. They're brutally honest, and nobody gets a break because "they're a good guy." Bad decisions that result in a mishap are not tolerated, and there are consequences, I've even been privileged to work for people (part of the endorsement chain) who have even faulted themselves for failures in leadership or management. Furthermore, many in the endorsing chain render opinions despite not being qualified in the aircraft or perhaps even an aviator. They don't ask "are you a waiver holder" as a way of shutting down dialog.

I'm not in any way advocating this level of investigation following a mishap, but I contend the willingness to take an uncompromising and highly self critical look at themselves is what contributes to a strong safety culture, combined with clear actions to ensure there are checks, balances, and accountability for behavior and decisions in the system.

If you discount my input because I do not hold a turbine waiver, then go ahead and ignore this as well. If you're interested in reading the type of safety culture in which I "grew up", here's a rare public posting of a Judge Advocate General report into a mishap. Formal mishap reports are protected by law from public distribution, this is the legal FOIA discoverable companion. Everything said to a mishap investigator is protected by legal privilege, and people are indeed prosecuted. The idea behind that is to ensure that nobody holds back from telling the whole story, no need to protect anyone's name or reputation, as the report is geared toward one thing - ensuring that the same failure mechanism never happens again.

This JAGMAN happened ashore, so everyone in the endorsing chain were in fact aviators, though Commander Naval Air Forces Pacific for example, was not qualified in the aircraft, yet he was the ultimate endorser. Note that there is no hesitation to fault the pilot, no pulling punches because they perished.

Note the statement on page 8, para 1 of the pdf (it's 47mb - sorry), where the unit commander put himself to blame in his own endorsement when he said "I am responsible and accountable for the safety climate and standardization as the squadron Commanding Officer. My climate and process did not detect and correct a flaw..."

Note that his boss talked about "gaps in leadership, oversight" and other areas that contributed to the mishap (pg 4, para 4).

Again, no pulling punches, and blunt self examination. Two things I think would be of benefit, but then again I don't hold a waiver.

http://news.usni.org/2014/03/12/docu...-prowler-crash

Last edited by franklin_m; 03-13-2015 at 02:53 PM.
Old 03-13-2015, 03:12 PM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
And if you ever have the opportunity to read a military aviation mishap investigation, you will never see "accidents happen" or any hesitation to call out pilot errors, decision making errors, or safety management system errors. They're brutally honest, and nobody gets a break because "they're a good guy." Bad decisions that result in a mishap are not tolerated, and there are consequences, I've even been privileged to work for people (part of the endorsement chain) who have even faulted themselves for failures in leadership or management. Furthermore, many in the endorsing chain render opinions despite not being qualified in the aircraft or perhaps even an aviator. They don't ask "are you a waiver holder" as a way of shutting down dialog.
Do you even consider why the jet guys here are offended by your posts? (Hint...it's not because you don't know your stuff).

You cherry-pick a someone's post and pick out a phrase you can attack. EXAMPLE..."accidents happen" does NOT mean we don't give the maximum effort to prevent accidents...I, and others here, know that the poster meant that sometimes a malfunction or human error will come into play and an accident occurs. You keep hammering that it means "so what". Guess what...it doesn't.

You are condescending
. I, and others, know about you being a Navy pilot and that you probably have more expertise in safety matters than any model aviation enthusiast. But you come off as one who knows a lot more than those in attendance who are actually working very hard to keep things as safe as possible.

In my post, I mentioned that even aces like the Navy Blue Angels crash...merely to illustrate that no matter how good a pilot is, and no matter what precautions are taken, no aviation event can be 100% safe. We all try to make it that way, though. You took my simple example and changed my intended meaning. You are obviously intelligent so you know what I was saying but you chose to ignore the intention.

There are positive methods for getting your points across. Why not try?

I can start off by apologizing for any attempt at belittling you. Want to go forward with something positive?

Bob
Old 03-13-2015, 03:27 PM
  #380  
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Franklin, don't stop taking your meds, OK?
Old 03-13-2015, 04:00 PM
  #381  
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If you find a RCU member to be annoying there is a way to avoid seeing any further posts from that member.

Click on his user id.

Click on View profile

Click on add to ignore list
Old 03-13-2015, 04:05 PM
  #382  
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Originally Posted by rjbob
Do you even consider why the jet guys here are offended by your posts? (Hint...it's not because you don't know your stuff).

You cherry-pick a someone's post and pick out a phrase you can attack. EXAMPLE..."accidents happen" does NOT mean we don't give the maximum effort to prevent accidents...I, and others here, know that the poster meant that sometimes a malfunction or human error will come into play and an accident occurs. You keep hammering that it means "so what". Guess what...it doesn't.

You are condescending
. I, and others, know about you being a Navy pilot and that you probably have more expertise in safety matters than any model aviation enthusiast. But you come off as one who knows a lot more than those in attendance who are actually working very hard to keep things as safe as possible.

In my post, I mentioned that even aces like the Navy Blue Angels crash...merely to illustrate that no matter how good a pilot is, and no matter what precautions are taken, no aviation event can be 100% safe. We all try to make it that way, though. You took my simple example and changed my intended meaning. You are obviously intelligent so you know what I was saying but you chose to ignore the intention.

There are positive methods for getting your points across. Why not try?

I can start off by apologizing for any attempt at belittling you. Want to go forward with something positive?

Bob
Bob, I accept. Likewise, I will apologize if I took the "turbine waiver holder" pokes too personally and then let that drive my tone. I would hope that others will do the same to throttle this back a bit, but that will be an individual decision I suppose.

In an age of mass media, near instant reporting, and a certain generation of individuals who relish the opportunity to publish wildly dangerous acts (a.k.a. many extreme sports), I think it would be wise for the jet community to consider the public relations side of safety as well as some subtle changes to the internal safety culture. If anyone is interested in ideas from a non-waiver holder, but knowledgeable outsider, then let me know.

Again, my apology.

Sincerely,
Frank

Last edited by franklin_m; 03-13-2015 at 04:40 PM. Reason: shortened
Old 03-14-2015, 04:19 AM
  #383  
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Franklin, it's your way of going about things that is a turn off. Everyone is pretty much about being safe. But this NTSB Gestapo mentality is over the top. The final,deal breaker came in one of your many post when you said basically if you guys don't want to listen to what you had to say and do things your way then you would just reach out to those harmed in an accident and make sure they know how to sue and you would provide them with info showing our community cares nothing about safety. I'm paraphrasing there.

Since your the safety crash investigator hawk, I'm sure you have pile drived a few models in. Please post your incident reports here with your findings so we can learn from them. I'm expecting pictures of crash site, reconstruction of the model, and steps taken to prevent further crashes. I anxiously wait to learn from the arm chair jet crashing expert. B
Old 03-14-2015, 05:19 AM
  #384  
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Yes Please.
Old 03-14-2015, 06:14 AM
  #385  
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I apologized above, but in a continued effort on my side to ratchet back the rhetoric, I will specifically apologize for the comment about matching attorneys with victims. It was unnecessarily provocative and I regret making that statement. I want to thank RJBob for graciously apologizing for his comments, which from my perspective opened a diplomatic channel if you will.

Some have said on here that while I'm not a CD nor a waiver holder, I do have experience that would be useful to the group if I changed my approach. I'm genuinely trying to do that. My hope is by extending this olive branch, it will be met with the positive response that folks said would happen. I'm happy to post my qualifications in the area of aviation operations, aviation safety management, and even management of large and complex operations if indeed there is the interest in capitalizing on these skills.

Sincerely,
Frank

P.S. To answer the direct question, I've crashed five model aircraft of all types since I started flying in 2005. Since there were no injuries, no formal report was required, but rest assured where one required, it would exist. That said, the first was a trainer aircraft that I crashed due to disorientation after flying through the sun's arc. It cashed on private property (club field) and the nearest human was over 100 yards away. The impact point was a soft plowed ground. Repair was nothing more than new wing bolts and cleaning the dirt from the engine. The second aircraft was a scratch built unthrottled hand launched 0.049 racer. That aircraft crashed vertically into the ground resulting in complete destruction. The failure was due to an elevator servo (elevator and aileron only). I was able to keep it airborne away from me for about 2.5 minutes after the failure by managing the lift vector, but ultimately lost control. The nearest human from the impact was about 200 feet, on private uninhabited property where I had permission to fly. The third aircraft was a .40 powered low wing monoplane. It cartwheeled when teaching my son to fly at a club field. It was pilot error on my part - he was overbanked in a level 360 and I allowed him to control it too long before I took over. The nearest person was the two of us, distance approx 100 yards. The fourth and fifth were helicopters - 450 sized. Both crashed on my own property. I was the nearest human at a distance of approx 100 feet. The next nearest human was outside my property line - approx 1/2 mile. The first crash resulted only in breaking the training gear and minor scuff to the blades. The fifth crash was descending into a hover where the mainshaft failed. That resulted in replacement of blades, one servo, gear, tail boom, feathering shaft, and of course the mainshaft itself. I'm lucky to have access to NDT facilities, and they were able to determine that it was metal fatigue due to airframe flex - which was resolved during rebuild with aftermarket reinforcements as well as aftermarket mainshaft made from better material than stock.

I have not crashed, nor damaged, nor been involved in any mishap involving full scale aircraft, nor been subjected to any investigation or allegation regarding full scale flying.

Originally Posted by u2fast
Franklin, it's your way of going about things that is a turn off. Everyone is pretty much about being safe. But this NTSB Gestapo mentality is over the top. The final,deal breaker came in one of your many post when you said basically if you guys don't want to listen to what you had to say and do things your way then you would just reach out to those harmed in an accident and make sure they know how to sue and you would provide them with info showing our community cares nothing about safety. I'm paraphrasing there.

Since your the safety crash investigator hawk, I'm sure you have pile drived a few models in. Please post your incident reports here with your findings so we can learn from them. I'm expecting pictures of crash site, reconstruction of the model, and steps taken to prevent further crashes. I anxiously wait to learn from the arm chair jet crashing expert. B

Last edited by franklin_m; 03-14-2015 at 06:16 AM. Reason: remove duplicative clause
Old 03-14-2015, 07:00 AM
  #386  
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I'm compelled to comment, because obviously not everything has been said yet. I'm one of the privileged few who have been actually hit by a flying model airplane. I'm an oldie now, but when I was a kid learning to fly at Apollo Field in the Sepulveda Basic in Encino, Ca., a baffling incident happened. I had just landed my Smith Miniplane. The engine quit upon touchdown, so I had to retrieve the plane on the runway after the rollout. I valued the plane because it was an exact scale model of Bob Conover's "Western Airlines, the only way to fly" red and gold Smith Miniplane. I retrieved the airplane, stood up, and was hit hard by a departing model that took off with me on the runway. I couldn't believe someone could be so dumb. My point is that if the plane doesn't fail, common sense will. There is risk as soon as you step outside your front door. Let's NOT trade our freedom for security. The drive to stomp out all risk, and address every obscure complaint, in the USA today has already changed our culture too much.
Old 03-14-2015, 07:31 AM
  #387  
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I too was hit. It was at one of those Navy practice runways near VA Beach, May 1981. There was a pattern contest and I was flying my brand new Tiporare, only 1 or 2 flights on it. This was a trim flight before the contest began. My buddy and pilot extraordinaire, Steve Stricker, was spotting for me. Another bud of ours was taking off with his Curare. He was trying a new technique that he thought might help his scores by keeping his takeoff roll straighter: he had a locked, non-steerable nose wheel installed. I was on the backside of a practice double immelman, inverted and just starting the roll to upright. The Curare hit a pebble or crack in the pavemengt and turned towards us. The pilot made the decision that he could correct with rudder and takeoff before hitting us. He was wrong. At some point he aborted the takeoff attempt and cut throttle. As I was flying my most prized possession as a 20 year old kid, there was no way that I could take my eyes off my plane. The wing hit my ankle hard and flipped me almost 180 degrees. Steve saw my predicament and yelled "pull up.... NOW" in an attempt to save my airframe. But that did not happen. I spent the afternoon in some VA hospital getting my ankle x-rayed (just sprained) and my airframe was a total loss. My dad actually filed an insurance claim with the AMA and they gave me some money (no recollection how much) towards replacement of the aircraft. Could have been far worse. A simple barrier would have prevented this, but at the time, no such barrier was employed.
Old 03-14-2015, 08:19 AM
  #388  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
There are over 1800 waiver holders. I'm just wondering why there is not a single one listed as revoked or even suspended, despite other waiver holders say they have personally witnessed dangerous behavior? 1800 and not a single revocation or suspension. That's perfection. I don't think even ATPs, with a substantially higher level of training achieve that level of performance.
Untrue! I know of at least one waiver holder that had his waiver revoked. I was at the field when he retook his Waiver flights to get it back. I Spotted for him on the flights. No name mentioned as his waiver is in good standing now and doesn't need to have to re explain.........
Old 03-14-2015, 08:50 AM
  #389  
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I apologized for the tone up above.

As of a couple days ago there are none listed. It was a point in time. Had I included the words "at the moment" it would have been a precise statement.

Originally Posted by Terry Holston
Untrue! I know of at least one waiver holder that had his waiver revoked. I was at the field when he retook his Waiver flights to get it back. I Spotted for him on the flights. No name mentioned as his waiver is in good standing now and doesn't need to have to re explain.........
Old 03-14-2015, 09:06 AM
  #390  
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Another thing Franklin needs to consider is that civilians are not trained to be safety conscious like folks in the military. In the military it's a culture and when failures occur there are chains of command that are accountable. This isn't the way in civilian life. Trying to take a civilian hobby and attempting to institue military codes of safety simply isn't going to work. There isn't a culture or knowledge of safety outside and you know it Franklin.

An entirely different approach is needed in the Jet Community than one would find in the military. This approach is more of a self policing effort and education effort at jet rallies. I am all for taking the time to rethink the approach CD's and the community take regarding safety and adjusting action points as needed. Trying to turn it into a JAG investigation, where you assign yourself as the judge, jury and prosecutor, is going to get you ZERO results and ZERO cooperation.

Last edited by AndyAndrews; 03-14-2015 at 09:12 AM.
Old 03-14-2015, 09:10 AM
  #391  
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Originally Posted by Pull Up Now!
I'm compelled to comment, because obviously not everything has been said yet. I'm one of the privileged few who have been actually hit by a flying model airplane. I'm an oldie now, but when I was a kid learning to fly at Apollo Field in the Sepulveda Basic in Encino, Ca., a baffling incident happened. I had just landed my Smith Miniplane. The engine quit upon touchdown, so I had to retrieve the plane on the runway after the rollout. I valued the plane because it was an exact scale model of Bob Conover's "Western Airlines, the only way to fly" red and gold Smith Miniplane. I retrieved the airplane, stood up, and was hit hard by a departing model that took off with me on the runway. I couldn't believe someone could be so dumb. My point is that if the plane doesn't fail, common sense will. There is risk as soon as you step outside your front door. Let's NOT trade our freedom for security. The drive to stomp out all risk, and address every obscure complaint, in the USA today has already changed our culture too much.
I've seen 3 people get hit by planes at the Basin. That place can be a zoo..
Old 03-14-2015, 09:16 AM
  #392  
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I apologized for the tone a couple times so far, but will do so again. I happen to think there may be things worth considering, but again I've never had the responsibility of being a CD nor holding a turbine waiver.


Originally Posted by AndyAndrews
Another thing Franklin needs to consider is that civilians are not trained to be safety conscious like folks in the military. In the military it's a culture and when failures occur there are chains of command that are accountable. This isn't the way in civilian life. Trying to take a civilian hobby and attempting to institue military codes of safety simply isn't going to work. There isn't a culture or knowledge of safety outside and you know it Franklin.

An entirely different approach is needed in the Jet Community than one would find in the military. This approach is more of a self policing effort and education effort at jet rallies. I am all for taking the time to rethink the approach CD's and the community take regarding safety and adjusting action points as needed. Trying to turn it into a JAG investigation, where you assign yourself as the judge, jury and prosecutor, is going to get you ZERO results and ZERO cooperation.
Old 03-14-2015, 09:17 AM
  #393  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m

As of a couple days ago there are none listed. It was a point in time. Had I included the words "at the moment" it would have been a precise statement.
Not really Franklin, had you included the words "at the moment" your whole argument regarding the totality of all waivers would be kinda a moot point don't you think? You were wrong. Why not just admit it and go on down the road instead of making up excuses as to why you made the statement in the first place which according to your excuse for making it doesn't now make any sense?
Old 03-14-2015, 09:25 AM
  #394  
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I thought I was doing that. But I'll be explicit - my earlier statement was wrong. I apologize for the error.

Originally Posted by AndyAndrews
Not really Franklin, had you included the words "at the moment" your whole argument regarding the totality of all waivers would be kinda a moot point don't you think? You were wrong. Why not just admit it and go on down the road instead of making up excuses as to why you made the statement in the first place which according to your excuse for making it doesn't now make any sense?
Old 03-14-2015, 10:58 AM
  #395  
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,,,

Last edited by tee681; 03-15-2015 at 05:11 AM.
Old 03-14-2015, 11:07 AM
  #396  
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No need to show your AMA card these days, as they simply look you up on the AMA web site.............If you are not on AMA's site, you don't fly.
Old 03-14-2015, 11:15 AM
  #397  
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...

Last edited by tee681; 03-15-2015 at 05:12 AM.
Old 03-14-2015, 12:03 PM
  #398  
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Frank,

I applaud you for apologizing, and extending an olive branch. I know that you felt the community here took a condescending tone towards non-waiver holders, and took that personally. I can only speak for myself, but believe that's not how most of us feel.

There is no doubt that with your background, you have some valuable insight to offer to the community here at large. I will agree with Andy, that it is unreasonable to expect the professionalism and proficiency out of the rc community, that you experienced in the Navy. With regard to that, God Bless you, and thank you for serving.

If you truly, altruistically, would like to participate, and offer better solutions for the hobby as a whole, I would respectfully suggest that you attend an event near you, and see what's going on. I'd be willing to bet that the organizers would be glad to hear safety suggestions, or constructive criticism, if presented in a respectful, positive manner. Good luck to you.

Erik

QUOTE=franklin_m;12002478]I thought I was doing that. But I'll be explicit - my earlier statement was wrong. I apologize for the error.[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Erik R; 03-14-2015 at 12:15 PM.
Old 03-14-2015, 12:51 PM
  #399  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
I thought I was doing that. But I'll be explicit - my earlier statement was wrong. I apologize for the error.
Apology accepted, thank you sir.
Old 03-14-2015, 01:36 PM
  #400  
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Originally Posted by Erik R
Frank,

I applaud you for apologizing, and extending an olive branch. I know that you felt the community here took a condescending tone towards non-waiver holders, and took that personally. I can only speak for myself, but believe that's not how most of us feel.

There is no doubt that with your background, you have some valuable insight to offer to the community here at large. I will agree with Andy, that it is unreasonable to expect the professionalism and proficiency out of the rc community, that you experienced in the Navy. With regard to that, God Bless you, and thank you for serving.

If you truly, altruistically, would like to participate, and offer better solutions for the hobby as a whole, I would respectfully suggest that you attend an event near you, and see what's going on. I'd be willing to bet that the organizers would be glad to hear safety suggestions, or constructive criticism, if presented in a respectful, positive manner. Good luck to you.

Erik

QUOTE=franklin_m;12002478]I thought I was doing that. But I'll be explicit - my earlier statement was wrong. I apologize for the error.
[/QUOTE]


Erik, thank you (and Terry H, and RCBob earlier). You're clearly three individuals with character, and I appreciate you accepting my apology. I'm looking at schedules already and plan to attend an event when I can fit it between travel for clients, kid's baseball events, and work at my cabin. I will however commit to attending at my first available opportunity, and I'll let the three of you know when I do. Again, I appreciate you recognizing where the discussion might have gone differently. I've learned as well. Again, thank you.

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