Crash today at Florida Jets.
03-14-2015, 03:07 PM
#402
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Something can be an accident and an error at the same time. Larry Dixson's crash was caused by a failure of the frame. If you watch drag racing it is amazing how much flex the top fuel cars have in their chassis. The error was in either building the frame too weak or not noticing a structural problem in the chassis. This type of failure is not that uncommon, there have been numerous instances of chassis failure in top fuel and funny cars. It would seem the the NHRA needs to find out the cause and work out a fix, just like we modelers do. I guarantee you they won't settle for, "it's just an accident"
Larry
Larry
03-14-2015, 05:29 PM
#403
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I applaude the fact that Franklin appologised,it is just unfortunate that it took a while for it to sink in.
There are several things that people have just made assumptions about, and unfortunately with out actually being at the site or at least seeing clear photos of the set up that was employed at FJ it is just not possible to come to a credible conclusion. It really comes down to the same thing when it comes to operating large scale aircraft or turbines, unless you actually know what it takes to pass a waiver or certification (depending on Country) how can you expect people who are involved to give you credibilty. There are always people of course that will neglect to follow guidlines properly or short circuit them alltogether.
The barrier along the runway although looks flimsy, is actually quite good at arresting aircraft that run off towards the pilot area, minimising damage to both aircraft and people in that area. Similar to some barriers that are actually in place in some full size applications, although they are deployed at the end of the runway and of courese different material and scale. There was a chain llink fence seperating the actual spectator area from the pit pilot area. You also have to take into account that any barriers are neccessarily temporary,
Even after reading the AMA guidlines on turbine waivers I am not going to comment on whether they are adequate or inadequate. In Aus our certification process means that each aircraft that is over 7kg (15.4324Lbs) or has a Turbine has to be certified, which if done properly means that each aircraft that falls within that category is inspected, and the pilot is proficient in flying that particular aircraft. As usual it is up to the individual, event organisers, clubs to make sure those rules are enforced.
To anyone who cares about this hobby, or takes pride in what they are flying, I am pretty sure you will find the majority are safety conscious I am also sure that at the Majority of Events such as Florida Jets, your safety is actually given a higher priority, than your day to day average club field.
Model Jet, and Large Scale Aircraft accidents tend to look more spectacular, but the people flying them are generally more safety conscious about their planes, than your everyday model aircraft pilot. A foamy, small balsa aircraft has the ability to do as much damage I also see a lot more pilots being casual about safety with them.
There are several things that people have just made assumptions about, and unfortunately with out actually being at the site or at least seeing clear photos of the set up that was employed at FJ it is just not possible to come to a credible conclusion. It really comes down to the same thing when it comes to operating large scale aircraft or turbines, unless you actually know what it takes to pass a waiver or certification (depending on Country) how can you expect people who are involved to give you credibilty. There are always people of course that will neglect to follow guidlines properly or short circuit them alltogether.
The barrier along the runway although looks flimsy, is actually quite good at arresting aircraft that run off towards the pilot area, minimising damage to both aircraft and people in that area. Similar to some barriers that are actually in place in some full size applications, although they are deployed at the end of the runway and of courese different material and scale. There was a chain llink fence seperating the actual spectator area from the pit pilot area. You also have to take into account that any barriers are neccessarily temporary,
Even after reading the AMA guidlines on turbine waivers I am not going to comment on whether they are adequate or inadequate. In Aus our certification process means that each aircraft that is over 7kg (15.4324Lbs) or has a Turbine has to be certified, which if done properly means that each aircraft that falls within that category is inspected, and the pilot is proficient in flying that particular aircraft. As usual it is up to the individual, event organisers, clubs to make sure those rules are enforced.
To anyone who cares about this hobby, or takes pride in what they are flying, I am pretty sure you will find the majority are safety conscious I am also sure that at the Majority of Events such as Florida Jets, your safety is actually given a higher priority, than your day to day average club field.
Model Jet, and Large Scale Aircraft accidents tend to look more spectacular, but the people flying them are generally more safety conscious about their planes, than your everyday model aircraft pilot. A foamy, small balsa aircraft has the ability to do as much damage I also see a lot more pilots being casual about safety with them.
03-14-2015, 06:55 PM
#405
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Andy, I'm a civilian commercial pilot with an ATP certificate with three type ratings and I'm very safety conscious and hold myself to a high standard. Since I'm a captain in my plane I have sim training every six months which consists of SOP, emergency procedures and safety training in which I must be within ATP standards. The PIC is held accountable if outside of these standards in which extra training may be needed and yes there is a chain of command that must be followed.(ie; base chief pilot, company chief pilot and director of safety). This safety culture is stressed by all in the United State commercial aviation industry in which I firmly believe is as safe or safer than the military. I do fly RC and I do bring my safety attitude to the field and we all can think and be safe too.
Be safe and enjoy flying, Dave
Be safe and enjoy flying, Dave
03-14-2015, 07:24 PM
#406
We will probably see some future posts written by guys who haven't followed this thread to the end. This means that they may reply to a post before they've seen an apology or an edit.
If you see a post like this, it may be of a derogatory nature. Please take into consideration that the post may be a reply to something that has already been settled or apologized for.
Hoping this thread doesn't regress into a hate-fest.
If you see a post like this, it may be of a derogatory nature. Please take into consideration that the post may be a reply to something that has already been settled or apologized for.
Hoping this thread doesn't regress into a hate-fest.
03-15-2015, 06:05 AM
#408
Another thing Franklin needs to consider is that civilians are not trained to be safety conscious like folks in the military. In the military it's a culture and when failures occur there are chains of command that are accountable. This isn't the way in civilian life. Trying to take a civilian hobby and attempting to institue military codes of safety simply isn't going to work. There isn't a culture or knowledge of safety outside and you know it Franklin.
An entirely different approach is needed in the Jet Community than one would find in the military. This approach is more of a self policing effort and education effort at jet rallies. I am all for taking the time to rethink the approach CD's and the community take regarding safety and adjusting action points as needed. Trying to turn it into a JAG investigation, where you assign yourself as the judge, jury and prosecutor, is going to get you ZERO results and ZERO cooperation.
An entirely different approach is needed in the Jet Community than one would find in the military. This approach is more of a self policing effort and education effort at jet rallies. I am all for taking the time to rethink the approach CD's and the community take regarding safety and adjusting action points as needed. Trying to turn it into a JAG investigation, where you assign yourself as the judge, jury and prosecutor, is going to get you ZERO results and ZERO cooperation.
The military isn't necessary immune to safety lapses either. I know personally of an incident where an A10 pilot, on a training bombing mission, ran his plane off the end of the runway in a late abort because his airspeed indicator failed to come alive. The plane was heavily damaged. There were no consequences to that pilot at all. He could have taken off and gone around to a landing....they are trained to fly by engine power and GPS ground speed. The prandle tube had a bee's nest in it, and the pilot didn't notice until it was too late. So, there is a back channel even in the military for handling accidents.
As for the AMA waiver list, I doubt they would want to publish revocations. It doesn't mean they don't track them. The list is a "positive" list; if your name isn't on it, you can't fly. I talked to the AMA a few months ago about their list, and I think they have recently learned they need to keep it more up-to-date. Late last summer, an update came along that added a lot of names. The AMA and it's rules are all about voluntary self-policing, and insurance as an incentive and protection. In it's voluntary role, the AMA has to balance participation compared to it's rules. If they get too heavy handed, they will lose participation and influence. That would hurt the hobby and it's reputation. I'm guessing the rules have no force in law at all. I may be be wrong, but I speculate there's no legal reason you can't fly a turbine at an RC field. I said LEGAL. But if you do that, the field may lose it's AMA charter and you may lose your AMA license. And there certainly would be no supplemental insurance payout in the event of an accident. So lets all respect the AMA's efforts and understand the tradeoffs they must make, that we probably never really think about.
03-15-2015, 09:57 AM
#411
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I don't think that any of the responders on this thread are burying their heads in the sand. Everyone involved in these types of incidents takes them very seriously and thinks long and hard about what happened and what could be done better next time. *Especially* those who put their time, money, and personal reputations on the line to organize these events.
At the same time, the "chicken little - the sky is falling and we need more rules or the "powers-that-be" are going to step in" attitude is not only not helpful, it obviously raises the ire of the people on here who *ARE* serious modelers who love and protect this hobby and put much of their own blood sweat and tears into supporting it by organizing/supporting these events. If those who "stir the pot" would actually get involved and help the efforts of these "10%'ers" and/or offer constructive suggestions instead of posting comments insinuating that they are irresponsible, stupid, or just don't care (none of which are true), then these back-and-forth horse beatings might just turn into something useful.
As far as the comment "Jet waivers are a joke" is concerned, I disagree. Yes, the quality of the certification process is up to the persons who sign off on it, and I'm sure that it varies, but turbine jet flying is the *only* segment of the RC aircraft hobby that has *any* barrier to entry. Anyone off the street can buy any sort of fast, large, powerful prop model and go fly it at their AMA club with no sort of quality control at all - except maybe comments from the other club members after the fact, and we all know how that often goes over. At least with a turbine waiver, a person has to step up and be ready to be judged before they can take off into the blue with a turbine.
I've been flying RC, both recreationally and professionally, for some 40 years or so. I'm a pretty good stick, compared to the average RC flyer. Yet I aspire to be as good as the *average* flyer I meet at a jet meet, and the best ones there are the best in the business. I'm not too worried about the flying skills of the average jet flyer...
Bob
At the same time, the "chicken little - the sky is falling and we need more rules or the "powers-that-be" are going to step in" attitude is not only not helpful, it obviously raises the ire of the people on here who *ARE* serious modelers who love and protect this hobby and put much of their own blood sweat and tears into supporting it by organizing/supporting these events. If those who "stir the pot" would actually get involved and help the efforts of these "10%'ers" and/or offer constructive suggestions instead of posting comments insinuating that they are irresponsible, stupid, or just don't care (none of which are true), then these back-and-forth horse beatings might just turn into something useful.
As far as the comment "Jet waivers are a joke" is concerned, I disagree. Yes, the quality of the certification process is up to the persons who sign off on it, and I'm sure that it varies, but turbine jet flying is the *only* segment of the RC aircraft hobby that has *any* barrier to entry. Anyone off the street can buy any sort of fast, large, powerful prop model and go fly it at their AMA club with no sort of quality control at all - except maybe comments from the other club members after the fact, and we all know how that often goes over. At least with a turbine waiver, a person has to step up and be ready to be judged before they can take off into the blue with a turbine.
I've been flying RC, both recreationally and professionally, for some 40 years or so. I'm a pretty good stick, compared to the average RC flyer. Yet I aspire to be as good as the *average* flyer I meet at a jet meet, and the best ones there are the best in the business. I'm not too worried about the flying skills of the average jet flyer...
Bob
03-15-2015, 11:28 AM
#412
The revoked waiver list is published in the "members-only" section of the AMA web site.
The waiver status of AMA members is printed on their AMA cards. Members have to show their AMA cards, with waiver if they are flying turbines, at each AMA event during registration. Hopefully, members also verify their AMA membership and turbine waiver status at their home clubs - although the mechanism by which that is accomplished is up to the club itself.
The revoked list is only published for the given membership year so members can see who has had a waiver revoked even if its printed on their membership card. The list is "cleared" at the beginning of each membership year because those who have had their waiver revoked will not have it listed on their current membership card.
It is a rare event, but it does happen...
Bob
03-15-2015, 01:46 PM
#413
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03-15-2015, 10:56 PM
#422
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Prandtl amongst other things advanced the understanding of boundary layer flow of airfoils. Needless to say he was German and was lectured at Gottingen university. A huge amount of the theory of aircraft design and jet engine design comes from the German work in the period from 1900 to 1945. It is worth reading about.
John
03-15-2015, 11:46 PM
#423
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03-15-2015, 11:47 PM
#424
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03-16-2015, 02:36 AM
#425
You guys will nitpick anything. Evidently a pitot tube is sometimes called a prandtl, not prandle tube, if it has the static ports also installed in it, instead of a separate location. Evidently it is not as accurate, being subject to airflow anomalies, as a normal pitot-static system found on modern jets, including the A-10. I was clearly making a joke, as I'm pretty sure you won't find a "prandle tube" anywhere on an A-10. I'm definitely back to lurking.
Actually that is what Nasa call it. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/pitot.html
Prandtl amongst other things advanced the understanding of boundary layer flow of airfoils. Needless to say he was German and was lectured at Gottingen university. A huge amount of the theory of aircraft design and jet engine design comes from the German work in the period from 1900 to 1945. It is worth reading about.
John
Prandtl amongst other things advanced the understanding of boundary layer flow of airfoils. Needless to say he was German and was lectured at Gottingen university. A huge amount of the theory of aircraft design and jet engine design comes from the German work in the period from 1900 to 1945. It is worth reading about.
John
