RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Reply
Old 04-26-2014, 12:19 PM
  #4751
Woketman
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Slidell, LA
Posts: 5,330
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

To me down thrust is any thrust that causes the plane's nose to pitch downward. So for a tractor prop,that is the engine pointed downwards. For a pusher turbine with a rear engine (like a falcon) that is the engine angled a bit nose up, behind the CG.
Woketman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 12:53 PM
  #4752
toolmaker7341
 
toolmaker7341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lockport, NY
Posts: 375
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woketman View Post
To me down thrust is any thrust that causes the plane's nose to pitch downward. So for a tractor prop,that is the engine pointed downwards. For a pusher turbine with a rear engine (like a falcon) that is the engine angled a bit nose up, behind the CG.
You got it.
toolmaker7341 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 11:32 PM
  #4753
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hello Ed,

I am working on the fuselage of the new Sea Vixen schemed Falcon. I have never used a "cockpit tub" in previous models and was wondering how you used the one you modeled ours on. Do you attach the tub to the fuselage, route the battery charging, refueling etc through the tub floor and then have the canopy removable or do you make a single unit out of the canopy and tub and have the whole thing removable for access? I suppose one do do either but I was wondering what you do on your aircraft.

I steered well clear of the "up/down thrust" debate. It is a matter of correctness vs common usage. My pet grumble is the use of "trailing link" for a trailing arm undercarriage. Another that comes to mind is the electric crowd's use of KV as revs per volt when it is really thousand revs/volt. "700KV" would be one hell of a high revving electric motor where they obviously mean 700 revolutions per volt. Ahh well,,, it is a funny world.

Cheers Ed

Col
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 11:52 PM
  #4754
ticketec
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,740
Default

Hey Ed,

I'm with you. plenty of pet peeves in the modelling world, but not wasting time here over them.

I attached my tub to the canopy so it comes away when I pul the canopy off. full access to everything underneath.

Are you going up to maryborough jets?

Thanks

dave
ticketec is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 12:11 AM
  #4755
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hello Dave,

I hope to be.there. I am hoping to have the new jet done ready by then.

Col
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 05:05 AM
  #4756
edwarda10pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seguin, TX
Posts: 485
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHawk-RCU View Post
Hello Ed,

I am working on the fuselage of the new Sea Vixen schemed Falcon. I have never used a "cockpit tub" in previous models and was wondering how you used the one you modeled ours on. Do you attach the tub to the fuselage, route the battery charging, refueling etc through the tub floor and then have the canopy removable or do you make a single unit out of the canopy and tub and have the whole thing removable for access? I suppose one do do either but I was wondering what you do on your aircraft.

I steered well clear of the "up/down thrust" debate. It is a matter of correctness vs common usage. My pet grumble is the use of "trailing link" for a trailing arm undercarriage. Another that comes to mind is the electric crowd's use of KV as revs per volt when it is really thousand revs/volt. "700KV" would be one hell of a high revving electric motor where they obviously mean 700 revolutions per volt. Ahh well,,, it is a funny world.

Cheers Ed

Col
Hello Ed:
With regards to the cockpit tub, here is a link to how I mounted my cockpit tub to the canopy. See post #164
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...095652&page=11

Also, my canopy securing method is also discussed earlier in the thread. I believe it is post # 74
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2095652&page=5

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Ed
edwarda10pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 05:31 AM
  #4757
BaldEagel
 
BaldEagel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 9,635
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Ed

Is that real carbon you have laminated onto your equipment trays?

Mike

Last edited by BaldEagel; 04-27-2014 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Spelling
BaldEagel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 11:10 AM
  #4758
edwarda10pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seguin, TX
Posts: 485
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaldEagel View Post
Ed

Is that real carbon you have laminated onto your equipment trays?

Mike
Mike:

It is. Last year I bought some 30" x 24" sheets of 1/32" carbon laminate and decided to use it for my equipment trays. As you saw in my thread, I cut the 1/16" plywood and then laminated the carbon sheet to it. Makes it very strong and adds some "bling".

Ed
edwarda10pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 11:50 AM
  #4759
joeflyer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plymouth, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default

That's a big mistake since carbon interferes with radio reception. You can get the same look by using stick on vinyl with a simulated CF pattern, which is what a lot of guys do.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1990491[/ATTACH]
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01481.JPG
Views:	169
Size:	142.3 KB
ID:	1990491  
joeflyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 01:58 PM
  #4760
edwarda10pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seguin, TX
Posts: 485
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeflyer View Post
That's a big mistake since carbon interferes with radio reception. You can get the same look by using stick on vinyl with a simulated CF pattern, which is what a lot of guys do.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1990491[/ATTACH]
Joe:
I respectfully have to disagree with you. I have used this in my jets and pattern planes for years without problems. My receivers sit on the plate and have experienced no loss of signals. I do, however, place my satellite receivers on the side of the fiberglass or balsa fuse. Additionally, many of the new composite pattern planes have CF firewalls, CF servo mounting trays, etc.

Ed
edwarda10pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 02:21 PM
  #4761
BaldEagel
 
BaldEagel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 9,635
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

This is just too close to the up down thrust discussion of previous posts to get involved, but I am on the side of don't use it if its real carbon fibre.

Mike
BaldEagel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 03:06 PM
  #4762
joeflyer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plymouth, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default

Ed,

We can disagree about whether or not it's a good idea, but you can't disagree with physics. Carbon fiber does in fact interfere with radio waves. That's why some radio manufacturers offer special receivers for use in CF fuselages. These have longer antennae which are routed outside the fuse.

In order to be a problem the CF needs to be directly in line with the receiver antenna and transmitter. That's not to say that some signal doesn't get through. It's OK to have bits of CF here and there in the plane, just like there are metallic objects in the plane. Some radio waves get bounced around inside the fuse and the satellite receivers prevent you from loosing signal when the plane is orientated such that the CF is directly in line with the main Rx and the Tx.

Obviously you've been getting away with it. I don't feel that it's a good idea to mount your main receiver on CF because you're diminishing the capability of your system. I prefer vinyl over plywood for my equipment trays since I also like the look of CF. I wish you the best of luck with your set up.

Regards,
Joe

Last edited by joeflyer; 04-27-2014 at 03:12 PM.
joeflyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 03:11 PM
  #4763
F-16 viperman
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: , CA
Posts: 127
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Just My 2cts on engine angle. Mine has over 100 flights 10 minutes each. Ram 500, Yellow aircraft Ram 500 engine mount. tail cone thrust approx 1 degree downward. 40 oz dubro tank rear, 50 oz dubro tank in front. with uat on top laying down. standard recommended cg. 10 minute flights with plenty left for a couple of go arounds if needed. Hope this helps anyone who has questions
F-16 viperman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014, 10:28 PM
  #4764
ticketec
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,740
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarda10pilot View Post
Joe:
I respectfully have to disagree with you. I have used this in my jets and pattern planes for years without problems. My receivers sit on the plate and have experienced no loss of signals. I do, however, place my satellite receivers on the side of the fiberglass or balsa fuse. Additionally, many of the new composite pattern planes have CF firewalls, CF servo mounting trays, etc.

Ed
+1

I have done the same thing with mine, and my falcon 120 has been flying for 3 years without a problem at all. I also have done the same and used even more carbon in my Fw-190D and have not had problems with it for many years either.

It has a lot more to do with the satellite antenna placement than than anything else.

Carbon and 2.4g does not equal to death of model. carbon and bad placement of antennas does.

Thanks

dave
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2893.JPG
Views:	133
Size:	1.41 MB
ID:	1990667   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2020.jpg
Views:	176
Size:	490.9 KB
ID:	1990668  

Last edited by ticketec; 04-27-2014 at 10:39 PM.
ticketec is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 09:48 PM
  #4765
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hello All,

The thread seems a little quiet of late. I have been a bit busy with work but the contract has ended and I can return to building. I asked my son Michael if he would mind painting Ed's cockpit tub for me and gave him the tub, the seat moulding and the canopy for a little paint. What I received back astounded me
He has "carpeted" the whole thing in black fabric. He upholstered the plastic seat moulding complete with white "piping". He printed out some suitable instrumentation from the net and applied to the dash. He added a "crash pad" surround to the dash. He built a pilot, helmet, goggles and mask from scratch using stuff he found around the house. It is an amazing job. I will include some pics.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2002639[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]2002640[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2002641[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]2002642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2002643[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]2002645[/ATTACH]


thanks Michael.

I am hoping to have this model ready for test in a couple of weeks.
The old Falcon has gone to a new home after 115 flights.

Col
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	cockpit 1.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	73.8 KB
ID:	2002639   Click image for larger version

Name:	cockpit 5.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	86.7 KB
ID:	2002640   Click image for larger version

Name:	cockpit 2.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	66.9 KB
ID:	2002641   Click image for larger version

Name:	cockpit 3.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	92.1 KB
ID:	2002642   Click image for larger version

Name:	cockpit 4.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	108.3 KB
ID:	2002643  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Wings3.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	74.2 KB
ID:	2002645  

Last edited by SeaHawk-RCU; 06-09-2014 at 02:46 PM.
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2014, 02:24 AM
  #4766
Xairflyer
 
Xairflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Co. Donegal, IRELAND
Posts: 2,738
Default

looks great
Xairflyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2014, 03:00 AM
  #4767
ticketec
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,740
Default

Looks great seahawk.

Well, I had my Falcon120 out 2 weekends ago for some shakedown flights before the big event at Maryborough. First flight was great, second flight had a flameout at the top of a BIG loop. I rolled upright, and would have been fine but she didn't pull out of the dive. I relaxed the elevator and let he build speed and then gave it a good fistful of elevator. she leveled out but was heading away form the field, turned her round and got over the fence, but was inbetween both runways. was hoping to kick a bit of rudder in last minute to squirrel her around. ran out of airspeed and the gear departed company with the airframe when it hit the rough.... Doh.

I've been not happy with the mushy-ness of the eveleator for some time now and it was since I upgraded the battery for the turbine and the lights, so I think the CoG had been creeping forwards causing the mushy elevator.

Most of the damage was the gear rails coming out and tearing some covering with them. the wheel wells also got damaged. the nose gear bulkhead was damaged and the nose wheel well copped a battering as well. I molded new gear wells, feathered them into the wing this time and i've just finished the wing by completely recovering the underside in white. I thought about going grey that I needed for my new scheme, but would have run out of time as I would have needed to paint the fuse as well to match.

As It stands now I have the nose wheel bulkhead about 80% complete repairs wise and it should be another 1 or 2 more afternoons of work to get that all finished up. I have finally bought a UAT (which I don't 100% believe was the cause of the flameout, but rather some of the setting of the K80, but I'll install it to be safe) and I will also put in some strobes while I've got the main tank out and making sure everything is ok. Then I have about 1 week left to complete the scheme change been wanting to do this for a while.

Thanks

dave

Last edited by ticketec; 06-09-2014 at 03:02 AM.
ticketec is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2014, 07:46 AM
  #4768
edwarda10pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seguin, TX
Posts: 485
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Dave:

Sorry to hear about your mishap. I have found that in my Falcon 120/Navy Cat if it is more than about 3/8" forward of the recommended 13" C of G location it will feel mushy on the elevator. I wish you all the best with the new paint scheme and the repairs. Since you have had one before you know that the Falcon 120/Navy Cat make good weekend flyers so please get it repaired and back in the air.

I too had my first Navy Cat engine flame out after a prolonged inverted flight. I attributed it to my UAT. Replaced the UAT (don't know what was wrong with it) and the plane flew great until pilot error caused its demise. I have my new Navy cat ready to go and the repaired engine should be here this week so hope to have a maiden this weekend or next.

Col:
Cockpit looks great. I like it

Ed
edwarda10pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2014, 03:07 PM
  #4769
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Dave,
I too am sorry to hear about the damage to your Falcon. Out of interest, which ver. of the Falcon do you have? As I have posted before my UC departed the wing for the first time on one of the very early landings. Reason for departure,, very little glue holding them in. Now my Falcon wings have Tasmanian Oak rails glued and gusseted across 4 ribs. if I pull them out again it will take the internals of the wing with it.
I am hoping to have my new "Sea Falcon" ready for Maryborough Jets as well.

Ed,

He did a great job,, I don't have the patience.

Col
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2014, 11:42 PM
  #4770
ticketec
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,740
Default

She's motoring along..

Version wise, I must be a version 1 because I bought it before versions even existed!

Yeah the rail popped out because there wasn't a whole heap of glue there. I have been pretty soft with my landings with this one so I guess it took this good knock to pop them out. not too much damage other than to glue them back in properly. I like to have smallish screws holding the gear in as fail safe type devices.

Got to bust out the demel and cleanup the nose bulkhead and then I think I'll be pretty close to being able to re-install the nose gear. then it's just glue the wheel well back in and I'm away again. I also put a small dent into the exhaust of the turbine (from one of the gear legs ejecting aft). So I have machined up a dolly that matches the taper of the exhaust and i will be heating it up to a warm temp and tapping it out. hopefully it will come out all good.

Thanks

dave
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	1.26 MB
ID:	2003209  
ticketec is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 12:40 AM
  #4771
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hmmmm, what goes on those rails Dave????



Col
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 02:52 AM
  #4772
ticketec
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,740
Default

A dodgy, out of focus pic is all your getting!

Thanks

dave
ticketec is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 05:04 PM
  #4773
edwarda10pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seguin, TX
Posts: 485
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Dave:
If your wings are only sheeted from the leading edge to the spar (or there abouts) and the rest of the wings are open bay then you probably have the first generation. From my experience in having owned 2 of the Falcons and two of the Navy Cats, the first generation Falcon 120's had open bay wings that were sheeted from the LE to the spar. Generation 2 had the wings fully sheeted. I am not positive but I believe that the gen 1 planes had a single bolt holding the stab to the boom and gen 2 had two bolts on each side of the stab to secure them to the boom. My experience with both of my Falcons was that you had to be careful when tightening the stab securing bolts is that when you tighten them you are tightening against (i.e. crushing ) the balsa. The inside of the boom structure is ply and then they are sheeted with balsa so when tightening the bolts you are crushing the balsa. What I did with my booms was to take a piece of 1/16" birch ply and cut a "rib" the same size as the stab airfoil. I then cut the film away from the boom and glued the ply to it. Then when I tighten the stab bolts I am against the ply. I am still compressing the balsa but it is not sandwiched between two pieces of ply. On the inside of the boom I put some 2 oz. glass cloth to further give the structure some strength. It has worked very well. I have attached some photos.

My experience with the Falcon 120's (gen 1 and 2) was that most of the structure was hot glued together. On my landing gear blocks, I used some pliers to "remove" the blocks. Once removed, I then cleaned up the area. I then installed some 1/8 lite ply on the sides of he ribs where the gear blocks attach. I then glued the blocks in with Hysol. Once this was dry I then applied some 2 oz. cloth to all of the areas I could near the gear blocks. The other thing I did to the wing was to try to "drip" some thin CA into the wing where all of the glue joints are. With regards to the formers in the fuse, since they were all hot glued in, I knocked them out (rather easily), cleaned the area up and then re-glued them in with Hysol. Did the same with the gear block for the nose gear.

Just my 2c,
Ed
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SAM_0356 (1024x768).jpg
Views:	57
Size:	231.5 KB
ID:	2003681   Click image for larger version

Name:	SAM_0357 (1024x768).jpg
Views:	48
Size:	266.0 KB
ID:	2003682   Click image for larger version

Name:	SAM_0358 (1024x768).jpg
Views:	44
Size:	236.2 KB
ID:	2003683   Click image for larger version

Name:	SAM_0359 (1024x768).jpg
Views:	48
Size:	222.2 KB
ID:	2003684   Click image for larger version

Name:	SAM_0382 (1024x768).jpg
Views:	47
Size:	296.0 KB
ID:	2003685  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Stab mount stiffener.JPG
Views:	56
Size:	2.85 MB
ID:	2003686  

Last edited by edwarda10pilot; 06-10-2014 at 05:40 PM.
edwarda10pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 10:36 PM
  #4774
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hello Ed,

Yes, both of my ver 1 Falcons only have the one screw holding the booms to the stab.
I just added a washer to the equation and it has been fine. My experience is that there isn't a lot of load on that area so I added the washer to stop the screw head from pulling through the balsa skin.
Your idea is very neat and would be a worthwhile mod if I were doing another one.


Col
SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2014, 01:35 AM
  #4775
SeaHawk-RCU
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brisbane Queensland,
Posts: 108
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Here are some pics of the "Sea Falcon" on first assembly.
Everything went together well and all is on track for certification inspection and flight on Tuesday at Tingalpa Model Aero Club.
My old Falcon has been repainted by new owner Richard and hopefully should fly the same day.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2007535[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]2007536[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2007537[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]2007538[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2007539[/ATTACH]


The blue is darker than it looks in these flash affected pics.
Canopy from Ken at KMRC Jets, Cockpit tub from Ed edwarda 10pilot finished brilliantly by my son Michael.
Retracts and struts are hobbyking. Turbine is gas start Kingtech K80.
Electric power is two x 3 cell 1800mah LiFe batteries through a regulator (RCCSKJ black). A 2 cell 3000mah LiFe runs the turbine.and accessories.
Servos are Corona metal geared digital except for ailerons which are slimline Turnigy.
Blue paint is, ironically, Ford Falcon blue. Heh heh. Wings are fully sheeted and covered in film.
Two sets of nav lights are installed with a controller in each wing. All I need to run to the wings for the lights is 5v.

I will take some more pics on Tuesday.

Col
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	FirstAssembly8.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	132.8 KB
ID:	2007535   Click image for larger version

Name:	FirstAssembly2.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	141.8 KB
ID:	2007536   Click image for larger version

Name:	FirstAssembly3.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	118.9 KB
ID:	2007537   Click image for larger version

Name:	FirstAssembly5.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	119.7 KB
ID:	2007538   Click image for larger version

Name:	FirstAssembly6.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	120.4 KB
ID:	2007539  

SeaHawk-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:08 PM.