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Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

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Old 01-06-2009, 04:27 PM
  #2176  
Mavrik!
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet


ORIGINAL: BaldEagel


ORIGINAL: Woketman

I would not use the P-80 for the reasons previously stated. BUT, were I to do it with the P-80, I would NOT de-rate the max thrust. You can NEVER have too much thrust for going vertical (up) and for when you desperately need it (unknown crappy situation, usually a blown landing). But you must ALWAYS be throttle aware and only use max throttle when warranted.

Agreed, I used the wrong description when I said de rate the turbine, what I should have said is use the Airspeed sensor to restrict maximum speed.

If I remember correctly both incidents of wing damage where caused by excessive speed, one bent the wing spar the other blew the wing to bits, IMO the wing blowing to bits was possibly caused by the extreme negative pressure generated by the very large curvature of the top section of the wing at the excessive speed sucking the top surface of the wing off the internal structure, that wing section is not designed for the speeds that can be achived by a turbine, but what it does tend to indicate is that the internal wing structure is fairly well put together, I am going to be stripping my wings so will be able to report back what I find.

Mike

Mike,

I thought it was the open exposed wheel well that allowed 150mph air to gush in and blow it up like a balloon. This simply popped the wing and failure followed!!!!!

Lesson here fill in your wheel wells!!!!!!!

Mav
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:56 PM
  #2177  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

ORIGINAL: Mavrik!


ORIGINAL: BaldEagel


ORIGINAL: Woketman

I would not use the P-80 for the reasons previously stated. BUT, were I to do it with the P-80, I would NOT de-rate the max thrust. You can NEVER have too much thrust for going vertical (up) and for when you desperately need it (unknown crappy situation, usually a blown landing). But you must ALWAYS be throttle aware and only use max throttle when warranted.

Agreed, I used the wrong description when I said de rate the turbine, what I should have said is use the Airspeed sensor to restrict maximum speed.

If I remember correctly both incidents of wing damage where caused by excessive speed, one bent the wing spar the other blew the wing to bits, IMO the wing blowing to bits was possibly caused by the extreme negative pressure generated by the very large curvature of the top section of the wing at the excessive speed sucking the top surface of the wing off the internal structure, that wing section is not designed for the speeds that can be achived by a turbine, but what it does tend to indicate is that the internal wing structure is fairly well put together, I am going to be stripping my wings so will be able to report back what I find.

Mike

Mike,

I thought it was the open exposed wheel well that allowed 150mph air to gush in and blow it up like a balloon. This simply popped the wing and failure followed!!!!!

Lesson here fill in your wheel wells!!!!!!!

Mav
Mav

About two posts further on from the initial report the origianl poster said the wheel wells where in place it was only over the retract unit that was not covered, thinking about it logically 150mph wind can only get in if it has somewhere to go i.e. another open area, this was possibly supplied by the circumstances as stated above.

Also don't forgett if you have an open area and the airflow is at right angles to it, a reduction of pressure will happen inside the open area, not an increase.

Mike
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Hey Giggo, I hope you bring that very nice looking Falcon over to Adelaide in May for JA2009. Should be about four around by then, including mine!
Baldeagel, when I bent my wing and front spar, I was not going that fast, just pulled way to hard on the elevator!! The wing is strong enough once it is strengthened to the guidelines contained within this thread. I purposely kept my plane light and used a small output turbine (PST600). This gives slightly less than 1 to 1 power/weight ratio and plenty of performance for me. I also made sure that there are no air entry points into the wing or fuselage structure, as certain high G or alpha manoeuvrers can direct a high velocity, high pressure air stream into the structure, think of the space shuttle re-entry disaster!
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:23 AM
  #2179  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Aussie1

Quite true, in high alpha manouvres you can get airflow into the structure as long as it has somewhere to go i.e. an outlet, the pressure inside the wing will increase, but not to the extent of blowing the wing apart, I still think the blown wing was caused by excessive speed creating a high negative pressure above the wing due to the high lift section which lifted the wing surface off the ribs/spar ect and caused the blown wing, of course this is all suposition, think of a spray gun it works from creating a negative presure over the top of the paint pot and sucking the paint out. Benouils therom is the closest to an explaination.

I will post some pic's of how I am going to streanthen the wing, I don't think I will be going as fast as the space shuttle though. LOL.

Mike
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:54 AM
  #2180  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Mike,

Note that the tail booms on the Falcon mount to the top of the wing, secured by two screws through the wing panel. Jets like the Topcat, Bobcat, Kingcat, Kangaroo, Rookie II, ect. The tail booms have one or two main spars and or anti-rotation pins passing through them from the fuselage to the wing panel. Those bolts and mounting points are under quite a load.

So I ask...Is it; air pressure or the front mounting point causing the wing to fail?
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:06 AM
  #2181  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Crazy

Good thought, but the wing that blew itself to bits had the booms in tact still on the wing, the destruction was outside the boom area, it was on page 75 I think the pic shows the aftermath of the event, what is indicative of all this is that the wing spar is capable of taking the loads of a moderate speed incrase without failiure and only bending when subjected to an abnormal high loading, perhaps a very good safety indicator for us to keep an eye on?

Of course the ulimate solution would be a new set of wing panels with a more appropriate section.

Mike
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:21 AM
  #2182  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Guys, really interesting subject,
couple of points,
- air entering through wheel wells will always have an exit point, through our large cut outs in the wing roots into the fuse. A tourturous path. Also servos are not a perfect fit in the wing mounts.
- there is obviouly large loads from the tail surface, acting through the booms on the wing structure. The tailplane is an airofoil section as well, which increaes lift forces as speed increases, counteracting the wing lifting force to hold the model level instead of continually climbing. There must be limit when the wing structure can take no more opposing forces.

Found this bit of video of a wing fail on putfile, interesting,


http://media.putfile.com/Yellow-F-18-


cheers Tim
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:37 AM
  #2183  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Tim

I am rearly enjoying this thread as well, but when all is said and done, if we go back to pages 74 & 75 and take a good look at the wing what we can't tell is how much abuse if any the wing may have taken on previous flight or any bad landings which may have compromised the structure prior to its demise all we can do is reinforce those areas we feel need it and are accesabel through the existing openings, personnally I am injecting Hysol wherever I can get the gun to the joints, I am also doubling the UC ribs at the attachement points and extending the UC bearers towards the root rib so that they overlap the spar support ribs.

Good video, you can see the high rate turn begining to develop with the elevator input just begining to bring it around when the wing failed at the root, I don't even do that sort of high speed turn with my Rookie although at lower speeds it can take it especially with the four way vector thust engaged, now that is fun.

Mike
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:23 PM
  #2184  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

BaldEagle.

I know of two, Falcon 120s, that came apart in flight. Both had pervious landing mishaps, one flipped with a crosswind hop. So landing on its back may have been the root cause. I do not have flight logs for either airframe but carefull routine inspections shoiuld be done.

These are prop driven china buil arfs. Not a composite BV or JMP jet.

I have one to assemble and it will get an Artes Bee 14Lb.

So my reading is going back to the start of this topic.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:29 PM
  #2185  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Crazy

You are only the second person to know of an inflight miss hap with this bird, the first being page 75 and the previously bent wing tube, but no crash because of it, do read the whole thread there is a lot of information on here concerning up grading to allow turbine use, its all good stuff, but is only as good as an individuals workmanship and to a certain extent knowledge of structures and how they work and interact with each other.

Mike
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:31 PM
  #2186  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

I have always put all my models on the bench when I come home from flying, firstly to clean them properly and second to check them over, I regular find loose/missing screws, broken hinges, loose covering etc, I have a big Stearman biplane and looking over it one eve I found the mounting lug broken clean off the elevator servo on one side, it was a hitec high torque and would have resulted in a crashed model next day out.
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:27 PM
  #2187  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Hello, all.

I have lurked on this forum for a very long time. The suggestions have been great and combining many of them, I have essentially completed my turbine powered falcon 120. I have mounted a P60se.

Two questions remain for me (by the way, due to the snow and cold in my area, unfortunately this bird won't be fired up for several months-this will allow me time to continue to reinforce and refine the build).

Anyway help appreciated on these two issues:

1) The vent line from the main fuel tank: How is this best handled? A drill hole in the floor of the plane? A one way valve (as on a weedwacker engine) to let air in but prevent fuel leakage?

2) I have 6mm tygon tubing from my BVM UAT. The jetcat fuel pump takes 4mm tubing. The jetcat manual says to use a 1/4 inch of 4mm tubing as an adapter for the 6mm tubing to the fuel pump. I have done this, use seal all at this junction, and used a zip tie around the junction where the 4mm tubing is placed within the 6mm tube. It just doesn't seem like the best solution to connect the different size tubes and I fear a possible leak perhaps over time at this juncture. I don't have a 6mm to 4mm adapter (I could order one). Any suggestions on this. Is the solution in the jetcat manual fine for fuel flow (i.e. use the 4mm tubing as an adapter for the 6mm tube into the fuel pump)?

Thanks alot guys,

I look foreward to warmer weather so I can try her out and post pics.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:17 PM
  #2188  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Tow
Your 1st question. DONOT put A one way valve on the vent line. This will prevent you from filling the fuel tank thus causing a line to come apart somewhere else from the preasure build up and filling the fuse with fuel. Just vent it as if it where a gasser and the vent is outside the fuse.

No suggestions on your 2nd question. Maybe the JetCat guys can answer that one.

Joe
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:48 PM
  #2189  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Well today I maiden my Falcon 120 with a T-750 that puts our around 20+ lbs of trust. Most of my flight was half throttle or less and only full throttle on verticle climbs (gets out of sight fast). I setup crow for landing and it really slows down good (my first time playing with crow too), I really like crow now.

I am really shocked on how good the flight performance is on this jet compared to the Boomerang Elan which I have built 2 Elans for customers and had a chance to fly both now. This jet for $179 and alittle extra time for mods to make this turbine capable, this is a really fine jet. I hope to have video next weekend and I will post here.
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:54 PM
  #2190  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Take the vent line over the top of the tank and over the back of same to prevent fuel from syphoning out when you point the nose down to rig and just leave the end of the tube open, this you can put on a fuel tank type of clunk inlet/outlet through the bottom of the fus, so that you can put an overflow/start up tank on the vent I.e. when you overfill the overflow tank takes the excess fuel, and when you start up the overflow tank becomes a start up tank and does not drain your main tank in the fus, don't forgett to disconnect it before you fly.

Sencond point get a Festo 6mm Tygon too 4mm in line convertor.

Mike
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:24 PM
  #2191  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Thanks for the help, guys.

It's amazing how much build info is in this forum on converting this plane to turbine power.

The pictures that you have all posted have been invaluable. I've also checked out the RCgroups build that is referred to earlier on in the thread and this was helpful as well.

Thanks again.

-Tow
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:38 AM
  #2192  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Tow

Sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, but I do not know how much gas/tygon expereince you have, Tygon will slip off if not barbed and tied, I solder the wire from a paper clip too the brass tubes if not barbed already and wire tie to prevent them comming off, doesn't matter how tight the fit is the oil will lubricate the joint and the Tygon WILL come off if you don't barb and tie it.

Mike
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:15 PM
  #2193  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Tow,

I like the velcro on the canopy! It will work great. It keeps the canopy looking clean and quick and easy to remove in a hurry if needed. I wonder who thought of that idea in this thread. LOL

Jeff
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:42 PM
  #2194  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet


ORIGINAL: Tow Cobra

Hello, all.

I have lurked on this forum for a very long time. The suggestions have been great and combining many of them, I have essentially completed my turbine powered falcon 120. I have mounted a P60se.

Two questions remain for me (by the way, due to the snow and cold in my area, unfortunately this bird won't be fired up for several months-this will allow me time to continue to reinforce and refine the build).

Anyway help appreciated on these two issues:

1) The vent line from the main fuel tank: How is this best handled? A drill hole in the floor of the plane? A one way valve (as on a weedwacker engine) to let air in but prevent fuel leakage?

2) I have 6mm tygon tubing from my BVM UAT. The jetcat fuel pump takes 4mm tubing. The jetcat manual says to use a 1/4 inch of 4mm tubing as an adapter for the 6mm tubing to the fuel pump. I have done this, use seal all at this junction, and used a zip tie around the junction where the 4mm tubing is placed within the 6mm tube. It just doesn't seem like the best solution to connect the different size tubes and I fear a possible leak perhaps over time at this juncture. I don't have a 6mm to 4mm adapter (I could order one). Any suggestions on this. Is the solution in the jetcat manual fine for fuel flow (i.e. use the 4mm tubing as an adapter for the 6mm tube into the fuel pump)?

Thanks alot guys,

I look foreward to warmer weather so I can try her out and post pics.

Tow ,

Just vent the tank out the bottom without a one way valve. On your second question, use a Festo fitting or another UAT!

Jeff
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:20 PM
  #2195  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

Once again, thanks for the suggestions, guys.

Using the pictures and the suggestions on this forum, one can pretty much tackle every issue about this plane.

I find myself looking again and again at peoples pictures to get more detailed info on their builds.

I saw that big plumbs (I think) vented the line through the bottom of the plane after he looped it above the tank but I wasn't sure if a valve was needed to prevent fuel loss. I have used the vent plug that goes on a weed wacker (it's really more of a filter to the air) on a gasser helicopter vent line with success so I thought this was needed for the kerosene but I guess not.

Also, I have used zip ties after the barbs in my fuel line plumbing? Any reason I should use wire twists instead. The zip ties seem secure and I have securely fastened all tygone and urethane tubing past the barbs at all joints.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:32 PM
  #2196  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

I flew My Falcon 120 Two flights yesterday and It flew GREAT. What a blast to fly. I have a P70 turned down to 119000 Rpm.
It go up like mad. But it is Not nearly as fast an My bubbies Rookie with a P120. and How could it be? Absolutely No bad habits. No wingwalk,
Just a Great Model to fly. Got to be more of these flying with Turbines than Glow. I can't believe they don't sell a Turbine version....
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:36 PM
  #2197  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

I ran my ventline out of the bottom of the jet using copper tubbing and a 1/8 plywood base. I also managed to get 100oz fuel tank in it.
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:44 AM
  #2198  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet


ORIGINAL: Tow Cobra

Also, I have used zip ties after the barbs in my fuel line plumbing? Any reason I should use wire twists instead. The zip ties seem secure and I have securely fastened all tygone and urethane tubing past the barbs at all joints.
No reason to use wire instead of zip ties, wire though just seems to be that bit more secure and necks into the Tygon a little bit better, although this may cut in if done up too tight, in reality its your preference.

BirdofPreY

How much does your Flacon weigh, would be interested as its an unusual turbine choise?

Mike
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:40 AM
  #2199  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet


ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

BirdofPreY

How much does your Flacon weigh, would be interested as its an unusual turbine choise?

Mike

It weighs in right at 17lbs with the UAT full. I believe that the first turbine ever used on this model was a RAM750. I took all the extra measures to strengthen up this jet for this turbine. That's why I used 1/2 Prolink struts that I had lying around, I use a dial wooden rod fitted in all the aluminum tubes, I also used powerful servos as well. I have had it at around 160MPH – 170MPH @ half throttle and so far it's doing really good.

After my first flight I inspected the air frame thoroughly and all my mods are holding up really good. This is a very clean airframe and WoW does it move with my setup.
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:57 AM
  #2200  
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Default RE: Bob Cat Copy Falcon 120 Jet

BirdofPreY

Glad to hear its holding up well, can you give a brief description of the mods you carried out to strengthen the airframe? it would be usefull to someone only just comming into the thread.

Mike
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