jim woodward

Hi Guys,

I know this forum gets a lot of readers from the jet community that flys at Markham Park in Weston/Sunrise, FL. I wanted to share a scenario with you regarding the poor judgement of one of the jet fliers in particular, which resulted in a very expensive and needless mid-air.

Last Monday 6/11/07 in the late afternoon I went to Markham to practice for the IMAC Nationals. Upon arriving there were 4 jet pilots (Glen, his friend, Pablo, and Johnny watching). There were also about 2 or 3 intermittently active sport pilots. One of the jet pilots and I were sharing frequencies. I came over for some greetings and discussion of frequencies, and noted that this plane was going to the Nats in a couple weeks which all acknowledged. We also all noted how great Pablo's new jet was flying too. Given the one frequency conflict, Pablo's new jet, and Glen, there was essentially a flight rotation going that I joined into.

During the first flights after I got there nobody had a problem waiting their turn which meant that while the sport guys may have been hovering over the runway, the jets or IMAC planes which essentially share some of the same airpsace "beyond" the runway were not in the air at the same time..... so far so good.

Worth noting is that since arrival, and during this short rotation, I witness Glen's BVM Bandit having to perform two belly-landings in a row.

My turn comes around again to fly and near the end of the flight I hear Glen's jet start up and take off. I think to myself, OK - finish the sequence, land, save the plane. Too late - on the return leg of a rolling circle the BVM Missle shoots through my plane destroying the entire tail section, resulting in a crash and total destruction of each plane (including his fireball).

What is the point to this? I'll let you decide. There was not 50 people at Markham. There was not 10 people at Markham. It is very, very poor that some sensible rotation and courtesy could not have been extended since I did mention and he knew this plane was heading for the Nationals. There was simply no reason to have two $7000+ planes in the air at one time. Besides the courtesey aspect, I would think that if someone has to belly-land the plane once or twice, they would want to take it down for a thorough inspection and repair for safetys sake, instead of taking off again with a HIGH probability of another belly landing.

Another point demonstrated here is that Markham Park's bad reputation is eared by the actions of individual pilots who exercise in general an "I don't care" or "free-for-all" attitude. I know there is a general acceptance that mid-airs happen - aren't anyone's fault - are just a damn shame - but these things do happen and they don't need to happen with such few people at the field and just before a National event. Know who you are flying with because YOU can be taken down needlessly by other people. [:@]

Thank You,

Jim Woodward

AndyAndrews

I wonder at what point some of these items fall into litigation? With the amount of money at stake I would think that the guy who is at fault would have a civil lawsuit on his hands. I see no difference in this than any other type of liability lawsuit.

mode101

I heard a lot of things about Markham, one is the five-fingered discount problem the other is stuff like this. I'm still wondering how they will pull off that 3 day event this weekend, mixing all aspects of RC without any problems. At our club you have to let other pilots know before you do anything stunts, 3D, low passes over the runway. Any big IMAC planes usually fly alone while others watch.

Sorry about the loss both parties, but as they say it happens.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

It's the way of the world now days Jim. I have to put up with stupidity at the
field where I fly regulary too because it's a city owned facility and is open to
anyone with a current AMA license. It's a shame an AMA license doesn't come
with a dose of common sense.
Sometimes an old fashioned butt kicking is just the ticket !

tommy s

jsnipes

My Feedback: (3)

Who was in the "pattern" and who was not?

If no pattern was established or being flown, it's both of your faults. If one was and one was not, the offender is pretty obvious.

Sorry to hear about the loss(es) either way.

JS

pbusa1400

JIM,
I'm sorry for your loss I know its hard so close to the nats. I just want to clarify one thing glen had not
just taken off. He was on final gears down. he did have some gear issuse on the previous flights but they were sorted out. Its a terrible loss. I think no one is to blame.
PABLO F

jim woodward

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for adding your recollection. I was "zoned" in on practicing the sequences. I wish I would have landed. I think anyway, the jet flight may have lasted a few minutes, where as my flight was probably closer to 10 minutes. It would have also been nice for Glen to extend the same courtesy to me as he did for your jet flights - which were beautiful! The new jet you have looks magnificent in the air.

Thanks,
Jim W.

ravill

My Feedback: (11)

When there are other airplanes in the sky, fly defensively. I try to fly think that all the other airplanes are trying to run into me, whether it is my $2 radio shack special or my $14K scale maintaince Jet A queen.

I know that thos big 3D airplanes are in the sky to do just that and that jets do the whole smoke down the runway in to big loops/split s's etc...

But when there are other people in the sky, these manuevers need to be minimized and certainly yelled out.

Oh and it sounds like there were enough people to spot with each other.

This could, does and will happen at other places. This is unfortunate.

Raf

Jim Abarno

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,

Sorry to hear of your loss, I can sympathize with you.
Not sure I would have taken a chance flying my bird so close to the NATS and risking loosing it.
Especialy if I knew the field had a reputation for inconsiderate pilots .


Jim Abarno

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Mr. Matt, tell the story again about the zig zag flying you once told, or at least it was you or Jason Sommes who tells a great story about zigging and zagging around trainers at 200 +.

Sorry this happened. Sounds like the two models were both magnificent.

splitail

My Feedback: (1)

Hello Everyone,
Let me first say that there are two or three sides to very story. Individuals should be very cautious when coming to conclusions or even making hasty statements without hearing all sides to a story. I am Glen, the individual who was involved in this unfortunate mid-air collision with Jim. I was in the pattern with my gears and and flaps fully extended and my spotter yelled LANDING. Just as I was making the turn from downwind to base, this was when the mid-air occured. Jim alluded to the fact that he was doing rolling circles.
Now all, based on what I have just stated picture this scenario.

GLEN: GEARS DOWN, FLAPS EXTENDED, SPOTTER YELLED LANDING, TURNING DOWNWIND TO BASE, IN PATTERN

JIM: DOING ROLLING CIRCLES .

As stated earlier, please all make your conclusions based on facts

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

Have you never heard of Spotters????

AFTERBURNER1

My Feedback: (80)

He probably got tired of waiting for your 20 minute flight to end.... Why bring this up in this forum??? There are plenty of R/C mid-air accidents every week in the U.S... The only difference is the price tag.. Why do some like to make it a jet issue?? Just plain lame if you ask me... We used to wait our turn for the IMAC guys that would fly one 20 min flight after another after another... Finally got tired of waiting for the rude ones and flew.... Get out of my way "Pine swinging Hover Boy"!!!!![:'(]

Jim Abarno

My Feedback: (1)

Hundreds of Mid-Airs every week in the U.S. [8D]

I think I'll stay home , Fly my simulator and drink Beer Dude .



Jim

Toro1

My Feedback: (2)

Pine swinging..... now thats funny.... Lumber lovers.

As opposed to HAIR DRYERS !

Never mind me, I fly pickle cutters.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

There is a fly in at Markham this weekend? Who? What? When? Details please.

Beave

Pitts S1S

My Feedback: (9)

The only good thing that ever happens at MArkham Park is the once a month Full Auto Nite at the Gun Range. Everybody brings their machine guns and lets loose! No thats a good time.

The flying field is nothing more than sanctioned Aerial Dodge Ball. Always has been, and I'm afraid always will be.

i live for 3D

check out mppaonline.net its a huge district 5 jamboree coming up the 22nd, 23rd and 24th. I also had a very unfortunate midair at markham park. mine wasnt as expensive though. i have seen some real crowded days were there are two 3D planes hovering over the runway while there are two turbines in the air and a little trainer trying to chase the birds!

i live for 3D

what other alternative fields are there?

flyjack

Hi Jim.
sorry for your lost last monday as a rc pilot i know how u feel i have been down that road a few times, never had a mid-air nock on wood . What happen last monday was an unfortunate incident ,we are not in the cockpit and thats why they are called models every time we fly them we are taking a chance and hoping for the best.i gather u still hurting but it also seems as if you pointing finger at Glen , yes there was am issue with the landing gear on the two previous landings but on the third landing all the gears were down maybe if you had paid the same attention as you did the two previous landings maybe we would not be having this conversation at all. In so manny words sorry for your lost and glens lost they were two great airplane and you two guys are great pilots hope to see you guys at the feild soom.

quist

My Feedback: (198)

Jim,

I hate to say this, but it is your fault for staying in the air. You should have landed as soon as he spooled up. I would never fly sequences without a spotter when a jet is in the air. It is a lot easier for you to aviod the collision then a jet turning to base.

Sorry for the lose.

3DHELINUT

My Feedback: (3)

Sorry for both your losses, Did both pilots have spotters?

This was an unforeseen accident with no one at blame, if either pilot flew without a spotter you have only yourself to point fingers at.

Does that field have a one plane only in the air rule? then why would you expect other flyers to stand down while you fly.

did you ask each pilot on hand to not fly during your practice sessions. If you have an issue flying while jets are in the air than you should land ASAP.



Alan

digitech

My Feedback: (10)

are we talking full size here?
or are we discussing our hobby with toy planes?
lawsuits? civil rights?

[:-]

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Jim - why didn't your spotter advise you that you were getting close to the aircraft that was landing ?

luckyb001

My Feedback: (8)

Jim, I would like to thank you for making your incident a public forum. Does Markham park really need the negative press? What do you hope to gain by posting this on a jet forum? I flew my Tigercat 1 week before Top Gun with everone else flying, so I see no signifigance in your National bound bird being involved in an accident. All of us need to work together or one day we will all be flying simulators. Sorry to hear of your loss, I have also had big losses in RC but we love it so we move on tho the next $7000.00 accident waiting to happen.
( remember were only a servo glitch away ) as the saying goes. Mike