Flight Demo Dilemma ??
03-03-2002, 10:51 AM
#51
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Hello everyone. Would like to share an outsider's viewpoint as this is a very good thread. I do fly DF, but am a more avid aerobatics competitor.
If you stop and think a moment, the explosion of Giant Scale planes has been tremendous. The cost of these planes is extreme also, as well are the hazards. This in addition to the craze to 3D. A 25-40lb plane can do a lot of damage as well as a 32" prop, along with combustable gasoline as fuel.
How many times has it been said, or more importantly seen, where a relatively new pilot has the $$ and buys the latest 35-40% giant. Possibly requiring someone to land it for them most of the time. Flying these behemoths without the acquired skill to handle inflight problems, or the occasional change in wind etc, etc. Along with the lack of skill to fly out of different manuevers in any attitude, sometimes low, close 3D is attempted. This at times scares me. Chip or Quique doing low torques, waterfalls etc is one thing, but for the newer pilots, this can be downright dangerous. 40% planes in entry level IMAC contests also, again, at times, dangerous. I have heard many times, anyone can spend the $$ for the bigguns, but a number of them shouldn't be allowed to fly without some help. Not wanting to stir trouble here, just have seen it, as I believe most have in one sense or another.
Although the turbine waiver requirements may be excessive, I have to say hats off to the idea of safety here. I have several friends here with turbine waivers, and have listened intently to the discussions. Our best jet pilot took a long time, even with the buddy cord, to feel comfortable enough to fly the turbine, even with 100's of DF flights, and that says alot to me, as he is an excellent pilot. I do feel sorry for those now trying to get waivers, but believe if a pilot is dedicated to turbines, they will find a way, as will the CD's helping.
Sorry to get off track, but thought an outside view might be helpful.
Thanx
ed
If you stop and think a moment, the explosion of Giant Scale planes has been tremendous. The cost of these planes is extreme also, as well are the hazards. This in addition to the craze to 3D. A 25-40lb plane can do a lot of damage as well as a 32" prop, along with combustable gasoline as fuel.
How many times has it been said, or more importantly seen, where a relatively new pilot has the $$ and buys the latest 35-40% giant. Possibly requiring someone to land it for them most of the time. Flying these behemoths without the acquired skill to handle inflight problems, or the occasional change in wind etc, etc. Along with the lack of skill to fly out of different manuevers in any attitude, sometimes low, close 3D is attempted. This at times scares me. Chip or Quique doing low torques, waterfalls etc is one thing, but for the newer pilots, this can be downright dangerous. 40% planes in entry level IMAC contests also, again, at times, dangerous. I have heard many times, anyone can spend the $$ for the bigguns, but a number of them shouldn't be allowed to fly without some help. Not wanting to stir trouble here, just have seen it, as I believe most have in one sense or another.
Although the turbine waiver requirements may be excessive, I have to say hats off to the idea of safety here. I have several friends here with turbine waivers, and have listened intently to the discussions. Our best jet pilot took a long time, even with the buddy cord, to feel comfortable enough to fly the turbine, even with 100's of DF flights, and that says alot to me, as he is an excellent pilot. I do feel sorry for those now trying to get waivers, but believe if a pilot is dedicated to turbines, they will find a way, as will the CD's helping.
Sorry to get off track, but thought an outside view might be helpful.
Thanx
ed
03-03-2002, 12:58 PM
#52
AMA Regs
What I see the AMA doing here is creating a slew of Josey Wale outlaw type's. Bet there are a bunch of guy's out there that have already dropped the bucks for turbines that may or may not be qualifed to fly them, and are not willing to go through the paces to obtain a waiver per AMA guidelines.
As the noose tightens these guy's are going to go off to their little paradise, and on their own attempt to fly these things. If a major accident happens do you think that it's going to be any less detrimental to the jet modeling community as to say if the accident happened at a major event.
It's been proven that the media is an evil demon waiting to rear it's head and would jump at the opportunity to make a headline out of a modelling accident.
Invision this,
"Toddler Killed by Toy R/C Jet"
At a remote air field situated two miles from a local suburb a model turbine powered jet cabable of 200 miles per hour carring highly combustible fuel flown by Mr. John Doe lost control of his toy model due to radio interference. The aircraft subsequently crashed in a backyard of a home located in a small suburb where it struck and killed a three year old toddler while playing at his home.
A full investigation is underway.
Get the point? Seems like the AMA should want the jet community to pull together and try to keep the turbine fliers at sanctioned events where the inexperienced can seek help. Of coarse there is going to always be the know it all's, but the more you can do to keep the jet community together as a group whole the less likely you are to have an accident as in the scenario above.
We live in a world of to many rules & regulations as it is, all in the name of the big "G" claiming to be protecting us from ourselves. The AMA is becoming the big "G" in our hobby. All their interested in is protecting their behinds at these AMA sanctioned events. I guess they are compelled to think if a guy goes at it on is own, his homeowners policy better be dam good.
Mark my word, let the AMA tighten the rules on obtaining the illusive waiver and sit back & watch as the fireworks begin.
Final verdict, we the jury find the defendant Mr. John Doe "Guilty of Reckless Homicide" What kind of effect do you think this would have on the jet community.
The AMA better wake up and do everthing within their power to keep the jet community as tightly knit as possible. Keep the stray dog's to a minimum per say.
As the noose tightens these guy's are going to go off to their little paradise, and on their own attempt to fly these things. If a major accident happens do you think that it's going to be any less detrimental to the jet modeling community as to say if the accident happened at a major event.
It's been proven that the media is an evil demon waiting to rear it's head and would jump at the opportunity to make a headline out of a modelling accident.
Invision this,
"Toddler Killed by Toy R/C Jet"
At a remote air field situated two miles from a local suburb a model turbine powered jet cabable of 200 miles per hour carring highly combustible fuel flown by Mr. John Doe lost control of his toy model due to radio interference. The aircraft subsequently crashed in a backyard of a home located in a small suburb where it struck and killed a three year old toddler while playing at his home.
A full investigation is underway.
Get the point? Seems like the AMA should want the jet community to pull together and try to keep the turbine fliers at sanctioned events where the inexperienced can seek help. Of coarse there is going to always be the know it all's, but the more you can do to keep the jet community together as a group whole the less likely you are to have an accident as in the scenario above.
We live in a world of to many rules & regulations as it is, all in the name of the big "G" claiming to be protecting us from ourselves. The AMA is becoming the big "G" in our hobby. All their interested in is protecting their behinds at these AMA sanctioned events. I guess they are compelled to think if a guy goes at it on is own, his homeowners policy better be dam good.
Mark my word, let the AMA tighten the rules on obtaining the illusive waiver and sit back & watch as the fireworks begin.
Final verdict, we the jury find the defendant Mr. John Doe "Guilty of Reckless Homicide" What kind of effect do you think this would have on the jet community.
The AMA better wake up and do everthing within their power to keep the jet community as tightly knit as possible. Keep the stray dog's to a minimum per say.
03-03-2002, 01:15 PM
#53
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
OK, here's two questions.
1. Is it possible to get liability insurance in the US? As some of you know, I live in Japan and I have a $3 million liability policy that I have to pay less than $40 per year for and it was specifically designed for R/C pilots. Isn't there such insurance in the US? Heck, I basically started flying here(more than passively), have gone from trainers through pattern planes, to warbirds, finally to jets. I don't even have an AMA license now, although that will change before I start to fly in the US.
2. What about the new little Simjet. Will the pilots with these planes using the 700 be required to have a turbine waiver? Theoretically, the size planes that will fly with the 700 are smaller and lighter than most warbirds guys are flying now. Granted they still go fast but so does a quickie 500. The AMA doesn't require Q500 pilots OR warbird pilots to have a waiver.
Any thoughts on this will lessen my confusion.
BTW, very good thread
Tim
1. Is it possible to get liability insurance in the US? As some of you know, I live in Japan and I have a $3 million liability policy that I have to pay less than $40 per year for and it was specifically designed for R/C pilots. Isn't there such insurance in the US? Heck, I basically started flying here(more than passively), have gone from trainers through pattern planes, to warbirds, finally to jets. I don't even have an AMA license now, although that will change before I start to fly in the US.
2. What about the new little Simjet. Will the pilots with these planes using the 700 be required to have a turbine waiver? Theoretically, the size planes that will fly with the 700 are smaller and lighter than most warbirds guys are flying now. Granted they still go fast but so does a quickie 500. The AMA doesn't require Q500 pilots OR warbird pilots to have a waiver.
Any thoughts on this will lessen my confusion.
BTW, very good thread
Tim
03-03-2002, 01:26 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
"Mr. John Doe lost control of his toy model due to radio interference. The aircraft subsequently
crashed in a backyard of a home located in a small suburb where it struck and killed a three year old toddler while playing at his home."
Yes it can happen, yes it will happen sooner or later. But notice I removed the word jet and just use "toy model" It's a very strange world. Even if someone collects stamps there will come a time where the licking of a stamp will become a poison or a choke thing. I hear where you are coming from but to this day no one has given me a warrentee card pertaining to my life. I would guess my chances of being hurt or killed by a "toy model" is pretty low. My point being lets lighten up on these things. Turbines stick out a bit in the news because they are new and make alot of noise. Did you know one of the last things my trainer taught me was that I had a left stick. Able to steer my toy and able to limit it's speed. I learned quickly and love to fly scale. Slow as they come. They are very pretty that way. Hey thanks for allowing me to inject my $.02 Bkf
crashed in a backyard of a home located in a small suburb where it struck and killed a three year old toddler while playing at his home."
Yes it can happen, yes it will happen sooner or later. But notice I removed the word jet and just use "toy model" It's a very strange world. Even if someone collects stamps there will come a time where the licking of a stamp will become a poison or a choke thing. I hear where you are coming from but to this day no one has given me a warrentee card pertaining to my life. I would guess my chances of being hurt or killed by a "toy model" is pretty low. My point being lets lighten up on these things. Turbines stick out a bit in the news because they are new and make alot of noise. Did you know one of the last things my trainer taught me was that I had a left stick. Able to steer my toy and able to limit it's speed. I learned quickly and love to fly scale. Slow as they come. They are very pretty that way. Hey thanks for allowing me to inject my $.02 Bkf
03-03-2002, 04:08 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
First of all, the changes you are all talking about ARE NOT in effect. Please read the item carefully. It says RECOMMENDED, and as far as I know there is no plan to make them definite. You need to go to the AMA site and pull up document #538. It explains why these RECOMMENDED maneuvers were put into place. CD's who had no knowledge of turbines were being asked to sign off pilots for their turbine waiver. They wanted help in doing so and asked AMA for assistance. It seems as though some of you are intent on bashing AMA and will take any opening, however slight it may be, to do so. To say that AMA does not want to insure turbines is a completely ridiculous, assinine statement. Within the last year AMA has allowed homebuilt engines as well as kit engines to be accepted for our use. Does this sound like an organization that doesn't want to insure turbines? In fact, AMA will be looking for ways to LIGHTEN the regulations on turbines at the next Safety Committee meeting to be held at Top Gun.
Spreading rumors and falsehoods like this will only slow down and complicate matters with regard to turbine operations. The key here is for all to use common sense. Do I sense a lacking of this by some?
Joe Amato
AMA Turbine Committee
Spreading rumors and falsehoods like this will only slow down and complicate matters with regard to turbine operations. The key here is for all to use common sense. Do I sense a lacking of this by some?
Joe Amato
AMA Turbine Committee
03-03-2002, 05:03 PM
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AMA pub #538 paragraph # 5 titled NOTE: !!
Hello Joe,
Yes the pub #538 starts out giving recommendations, BUT and it's a big BUT it then proceeds to define with underling the word "Cannot" use a turbine aircraft, what aircraft type of aircraft can be used and what speeds it must be capable of. Reads to me and is understood by others to be more than recommendations.
If you read prior posts herein you will see this publication has caught many in a catch 22 / dilemma situation. Many different interpretations of the AMA designees are also evident. My purpose in bringing this to the light of day is because the dilemma's are a real consequence of the verbiage and structure of the publications fifth paragraph titled "NOTE:".
I believe a "Restricted" or "Provisional" Waiver issued by the AMA would be a better way to allow the transition to the issuance of the existing full use "Special Waiver". In that way the AMA automatically allows for all circumstances, rather than alienating those caught in the middle, / catch 22 / dilemma, with a turbine powered aircraft and no aircraft to do the Check ride with!
Respectfully,
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
Yes the pub #538 starts out giving recommendations, BUT and it's a big BUT it then proceeds to define with underling the word "Cannot" use a turbine aircraft, what aircraft type of aircraft can be used and what speeds it must be capable of. Reads to me and is understood by others to be more than recommendations.
If you read prior posts herein you will see this publication has caught many in a catch 22 / dilemma situation. Many different interpretations of the AMA designees are also evident. My purpose in bringing this to the light of day is because the dilemma's are a real consequence of the verbiage and structure of the publications fifth paragraph titled "NOTE:".
I believe a "Restricted" or "Provisional" Waiver issued by the AMA would be a better way to allow the transition to the issuance of the existing full use "Special Waiver". In that way the AMA automatically allows for all circumstances, rather than alienating those caught in the middle, / catch 22 / dilemma, with a turbine powered aircraft and no aircraft to do the Check ride with!
Respectfully,
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
03-03-2002, 05:12 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
The key here is for all to use common sense. Do I
sense a lacking of this by some?
Joe Amato
AMA Turbine Committee
No sir not at all. Message received. You stand out as a leader in the turbine issues and I look to you for guidence with these issues. Commen sense has always been important, I just do not see any need for special restrictions on any part of RC.
Regards: Bkf
sense a lacking of this by some?
Joe Amato
AMA Turbine Committee
No sir not at all. Message received. You stand out as a leader in the turbine issues and I look to you for guidence with these issues. Commen sense has always been important, I just do not see any need for special restrictions on any part of RC.
Regards: Bkf
03-03-2002, 05:24 PM
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Joe,
The AMA deserves bashing, If an incident occurs AMA would point to my homeowners policy first and say you pay,,, My homeowners policy has approved every turbine, stock, homebuilt etc for use I care to purchase. So why should I appluad the AMA............
03-03-2002, 05:39 PM
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Lee,
Your point about the "provisional waiver" is well accepted. I suggest that you and anyone else take a few minutes and go to the JPO website (www.jetpilots.org) and read the JPO turbine waiver proposal again. The JPO prposal would do exactly what you are proposing. When that proposal was drafted several of us thought that it was the single best way to get a guy involved with turbines. Number 1 it assured that the newbie turbine pilot would get some help from an experienced guy. Number 2 it assures that the same pilot gets the help for a certain number of flights, and that he is adequately "tested" much in the same way as the current Turbine CD, and can be those same guys. Before he is released to an unrestricted type of waiver. THe proposal as it stands is a good basis for an orginized and logical introduction to new guys into the world of turbines. It removes the need for a bunch of high speed experience, and it also might help temper the over zealous guy that has a little more money than sense. JPO has taken a lot of grief over that proposal but has also had quite a few prominent jet pilots tell us that the proposal is actually a big step forward.
READ IT!
David Reid
Your point about the "provisional waiver" is well accepted. I suggest that you and anyone else take a few minutes and go to the JPO website (www.jetpilots.org) and read the JPO turbine waiver proposal again. The JPO prposal would do exactly what you are proposing. When that proposal was drafted several of us thought that it was the single best way to get a guy involved with turbines. Number 1 it assured that the newbie turbine pilot would get some help from an experienced guy. Number 2 it assures that the same pilot gets the help for a certain number of flights, and that he is adequately "tested" much in the same way as the current Turbine CD, and can be those same guys. Before he is released to an unrestricted type of waiver. THe proposal as it stands is a good basis for an orginized and logical introduction to new guys into the world of turbines. It removes the need for a bunch of high speed experience, and it also might help temper the over zealous guy that has a little more money than sense. JPO has taken a lot of grief over that proposal but has also had quite a few prominent jet pilots tell us that the proposal is actually a big step forward.
READ IT!
David Reid
03-03-2002, 05:49 PM
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Lets make it more simple. The buddy box! Required until waiver sighoff period. Nothing more. Will save many bucks and take us back to the roots of RC flight the way it was and the way it should still be.Bkf
I know when my Roo finally takes to the air I want two good jet jocks on the line. I will just be watching knowing full well what they do is in my best intrests.
I know when my Roo finally takes to the air I want two good jet jocks on the line. I will just be watching knowing full well what they do is in my best intrests.
03-03-2002, 05:55 PM
#61
"Checkrides"
All,
I take "checkrides" once a year down at NATCO.I think it is incredibly pompous to let this situation deteriorate to the point that people are talking about,much less requiring "checkrides"to fly a model airplane!!!This is a hobby!!!It has been said before,and it is true.You don't need a waiver to fly a diamond dust(200+mph),a pylon racer,or a 55 pound warbird.I'm pretty sure these will all kill you as fast as a turbine jet.Some are way more difficult to fly!!Some people in this R/C jet community take themselves way too seriously!!As hard as it is for some to admit,these are TOY airplanes!!How many people that have the resources to spend 4K plus on a turbine setup do you think would be stupid enough to not learn how to start and operate it safely?I don't think very many.I thought this was about having fun!!!
Erik
I take "checkrides" once a year down at NATCO.I think it is incredibly pompous to let this situation deteriorate to the point that people are talking about,much less requiring "checkrides"to fly a model airplane!!!This is a hobby!!!It has been said before,and it is true.You don't need a waiver to fly a diamond dust(200+mph),a pylon racer,or a 55 pound warbird.I'm pretty sure these will all kill you as fast as a turbine jet.Some are way more difficult to fly!!Some people in this R/C jet community take themselves way too seriously!!As hard as it is for some to admit,these are TOY airplanes!!How many people that have the resources to spend 4K plus on a turbine setup do you think would be stupid enough to not learn how to start and operate it safely?I don't think very many.I thought this was about having fun!!!
Erik
03-03-2002, 06:00 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Erik: Seems like that is going away. Save us from our toy airplanes. Im sad over this.
Actually this is becoming very big business. Like the stock market. Time to put an end to it. IMHO im so sick of the AMA I could choke. Dave sitting there in his tower helping us when he does not have the required abilites to fly a jet. Heck lets get BV to run the show.
Actually this is becoming very big business. Like the stock market. Time to put an end to it. IMHO im so sick of the AMA I could choke. Dave sitting there in his tower helping us when he does not have the required abilites to fly a jet. Heck lets get BV to run the show.
