Flight Demo Dilemma ??
02-26-2002, 04:32 AM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Has everyone been paying attention to the changes that are now in effect in regard to obtaining the AMA Turbine Waiver. There are as we speak modelers buying turbine equipment, i.e., Roo's, Hot spots, Top Cats, Bob Cats, turbine motors that may have trouble actually being able to comply with the requirements of the "Now mandatory flight demonstration." I don't mean trouble with their competence and ability necessarily, but a dilemma as to aircraft used for the flight demonstration.
As I read the -- Recommended Patterns/Maneuvers for the Turbine Waiver Sign-off ------ , the maneuvers themselves are only recommended, "not rigid" ---- but and this is a big BUT -- "The pilot cannot (notice the underline) use a turbine engine for the purpose of this performance flight, however he/she must perform these maneuvers with a high performance model such as a ducted fan jet or scale warbird at over 150 mph. The model should have flaps and the pilots should demonstrate their use during touch-and-go, missed approach, and landings."
What aircraft are going to qualify for these flight demonstrations? Not all D/F aircraft will fly at 150 mph, and some that will fly 150 mph have no flaps. A Q-500, Q-40, and most racing aircraft will not qualify, (no flaps), most pattern aircraft of today's design will not fly at 150 mph. Most Big Bird warbirds will not fly at 150 mph. Yes, the high performance racing versions of the warbirds will exceed 150 mph, D/Fs like the Maverick, Bandit, Starfire, and some more will most certainly fit the requirement.
My point here is there are want-a-be Jet jocks, Racer's, Big Bird pilots, Pattern pilots, IMAA types, that either own turbine powered aircraft, or are going to buy and build them! But, they don't own an aircraft that will allow them to fly the required flight demonstration to obtain a wavier. Does everyone realize that now not only do you have to sign a declaration stating that you have completed 50 flights of a high speed aircraft (preferable ducted fan) designed to fly 150 mph or faster, but you have to fly a demonstration flight to prove it! For us who now have our turbine waivers this aircraft dilemma was not a problem. We transitioned from racing, pattern flying, etc., into high performance ducted fan powered aircraft over the past several years, and within the last two or three years have made the final transition into turbine powered Jets. More a transition of technology over many years, rather than just a choice of equipment as it is now....
That was us, and that was then ------ . There are prospective Jet pilots that might have the competence and ability to safely operated a turbine powered aircraft that just don't have an aircraft that meets the level of performance required for the flight demonstration.
Think this one over and raise your hand (figuratively) if you know pilots that are going to be facing this dilemma. Does anyone see that the "used price value" of high performance D/F aircraft just went up! Are there going to be flight schools blooming up that have the correct type of aircraft for pilots to use for there flight demo's. An example might be the need for speed type pilot, an accomplished racer, but does not own any type of aircraft that will qualify for the flight demonstration, but he already has a turbine bird. Does he have to go out and buy or build a high performance D/F aircraft just for his flight demonstration sign off?
I believe there should be an amendment (yes already a change) in the new flight demonstration recommendations that allows the demonstration "check out flight(s)" to be made with turbine powered aircraft.
I could not have gotten my FAA multi engine rating without actually flying a number of hours including check ride in a twin engine aircraft. You can't get a type rating in the full scale world without actually flying that type of aircraft! I think this should have been thought over a little more! An answer to this dilemma might be an allowance for a for buddy box training, working toward the final demonstration. This would be only necessary for the pilots that don't have a high performance D/F, warbird aircraft. Fact is the more I think about it the Check flight should require the use of your turbine powered aircraft. Of course the details of the transitional training would be worked out by the Jet pilot applicant and the AMA CD designees. Hummm a temporary student pilot turbine wavier, used only under supervision of an AMA Turbine designees, so all can covered for insurance purposes?
Could some of the designated AMA Contest Directors that are on the sign-off list, please let us know what you think, how do you plan to handle the above described dilemma. Maybe there is no dilemma, could you please give us your insight. Are you going to say to the applicant, go buy a Starfire, or Maverick, Bandit, or high performance warbird racer or whatever before allowing a demonstration flight? What do the turbine dealers think about this regulatory / insurance dilemma? What aircraft are going to be on the demo list?
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
As I read the -- Recommended Patterns/Maneuvers for the Turbine Waiver Sign-off ------ , the maneuvers themselves are only recommended, "not rigid" ---- but and this is a big BUT -- "The pilot cannot (notice the underline) use a turbine engine for the purpose of this performance flight, however he/she must perform these maneuvers with a high performance model such as a ducted fan jet or scale warbird at over 150 mph. The model should have flaps and the pilots should demonstrate their use during touch-and-go, missed approach, and landings."
What aircraft are going to qualify for these flight demonstrations? Not all D/F aircraft will fly at 150 mph, and some that will fly 150 mph have no flaps. A Q-500, Q-40, and most racing aircraft will not qualify, (no flaps), most pattern aircraft of today's design will not fly at 150 mph. Most Big Bird warbirds will not fly at 150 mph. Yes, the high performance racing versions of the warbirds will exceed 150 mph, D/Fs like the Maverick, Bandit, Starfire, and some more will most certainly fit the requirement.
My point here is there are want-a-be Jet jocks, Racer's, Big Bird pilots, Pattern pilots, IMAA types, that either own turbine powered aircraft, or are going to buy and build them! But, they don't own an aircraft that will allow them to fly the required flight demonstration to obtain a wavier. Does everyone realize that now not only do you have to sign a declaration stating that you have completed 50 flights of a high speed aircraft (preferable ducted fan) designed to fly 150 mph or faster, but you have to fly a demonstration flight to prove it! For us who now have our turbine waivers this aircraft dilemma was not a problem. We transitioned from racing, pattern flying, etc., into high performance ducted fan powered aircraft over the past several years, and within the last two or three years have made the final transition into turbine powered Jets. More a transition of technology over many years, rather than just a choice of equipment as it is now....
That was us, and that was then ------ . There are prospective Jet pilots that might have the competence and ability to safely operated a turbine powered aircraft that just don't have an aircraft that meets the level of performance required for the flight demonstration.
Think this one over and raise your hand (figuratively) if you know pilots that are going to be facing this dilemma. Does anyone see that the "used price value" of high performance D/F aircraft just went up! Are there going to be flight schools blooming up that have the correct type of aircraft for pilots to use for there flight demo's. An example might be the need for speed type pilot, an accomplished racer, but does not own any type of aircraft that will qualify for the flight demonstration, but he already has a turbine bird. Does he have to go out and buy or build a high performance D/F aircraft just for his flight demonstration sign off?
I believe there should be an amendment (yes already a change) in the new flight demonstration recommendations that allows the demonstration "check out flight(s)" to be made with turbine powered aircraft.
I could not have gotten my FAA multi engine rating without actually flying a number of hours including check ride in a twin engine aircraft. You can't get a type rating in the full scale world without actually flying that type of aircraft! I think this should have been thought over a little more! An answer to this dilemma might be an allowance for a for buddy box training, working toward the final demonstration. This would be only necessary for the pilots that don't have a high performance D/F, warbird aircraft. Fact is the more I think about it the Check flight should require the use of your turbine powered aircraft. Of course the details of the transitional training would be worked out by the Jet pilot applicant and the AMA CD designees. Hummm a temporary student pilot turbine wavier, used only under supervision of an AMA Turbine designees, so all can covered for insurance purposes?
Could some of the designated AMA Contest Directors that are on the sign-off list, please let us know what you think, how do you plan to handle the above described dilemma. Maybe there is no dilemma, could you please give us your insight. Are you going to say to the applicant, go buy a Starfire, or Maverick, Bandit, or high performance warbird racer or whatever before allowing a demonstration flight? What do the turbine dealers think about this regulatory / insurance dilemma? What aircraft are going to be on the demo list?
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
02-26-2002, 05:28 AM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Lee,
Dilemna it is! I am one of the Turbine CD's and plan to handle it in this way. The AMA documents state that I have to see the individual fly. The AMA recommended manouvers are there to give me some guidelines to compare different people. I have signed off 2 individuals so far. I have had another approach me that has not got the experience to fly a turbine and it shows. Both of the individuals that I signed off have been flying with me for several years now and I feel confident in their abilities. I did a brief check flight because I am already familiar with them and their piloting skills.
The turbine "learners permit"...... interesting that you should bring that up! I would suggest reading the JPO Turbine waiver proposal. Even if you have already read it go read it again and see that JPO actually was trying to address this problem. Not to mention that the Turbine CD's right now are few and far between.
As far as what airplane I personally will require. That's a tough one. I am not going to buy a radar gun, and I am not going to insist that someone fly an airplane that they are not familiar with. I would like to see them flying a DF airplane with flaps, and retracts, but at the minimum it should have retracts. If they have a scale warbird that is fairly fast and has a level of complexity to it then I will accept that. Come to me with a Diamond Dust and I won't waste my time. Speed is not everything with this aspect of the hobby. Most of us that are flying turbines can easily tell if a guy is ready for one.
David Reid
Dilemna it is! I am one of the Turbine CD's and plan to handle it in this way. The AMA documents state that I have to see the individual fly. The AMA recommended manouvers are there to give me some guidelines to compare different people. I have signed off 2 individuals so far. I have had another approach me that has not got the experience to fly a turbine and it shows. Both of the individuals that I signed off have been flying with me for several years now and I feel confident in their abilities. I did a brief check flight because I am already familiar with them and their piloting skills.
The turbine "learners permit"...... interesting that you should bring that up! I would suggest reading the JPO Turbine waiver proposal. Even if you have already read it go read it again and see that JPO actually was trying to address this problem. Not to mention that the Turbine CD's right now are few and far between.
As far as what airplane I personally will require. That's a tough one. I am not going to buy a radar gun, and I am not going to insist that someone fly an airplane that they are not familiar with. I would like to see them flying a DF airplane with flaps, and retracts, but at the minimum it should have retracts. If they have a scale warbird that is fairly fast and has a level of complexity to it then I will accept that. Come to me with a Diamond Dust and I won't waste my time. Speed is not everything with this aspect of the hobby. Most of us that are flying turbines can easily tell if a guy is ready for one.
David Reid
02-26-2002, 05:35 AM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
let me ask a newbie question.Besides the difference in starting procedure and throttle response ,whats the big difference between a high performance D/F and a turbine powered airplane?
02-26-2002, 05:58 AM
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Oh God this is going to be a long thread. No I don't have the answers, just the mandatory $.02 on my take of it. In the front of the line is the AMA. In a nut shell they don't want to insure turbines. Why? I don't know. I can unscrew someones head just as good with a Tower trainer and a LA 40. Well maybe not as fast. Fires Yep that's a big one. And they do carry more liquid then most other types. That is all I can think of. Remember it can't be speed because the DF you would need to test with go just as fast as most turbines. So what is the real reasons. Don't ask me. Lets take the AMA out of the equation for a minute. That leaves the manufactures and their fear of liabilties in this sue happy world. That also sounds like a big reason. But deep down they really don't like it. IMHO! Why? Turbine pilots started popping up everywhere. Most knew how to fly well, some did not, but they usually were removed from the gene pool by virtue of the common balsa eats dirt condition. So for what ever reasons all these groups started to make up all these rules, regulations, and requirments. And in the end who is going to suffer besides those who want to fly turbines. Easy the manufactures. I bet
(again IMHO) if some smart math type's out there did or will do a study (if and when these requirments ever take off)they would find a very sharp drop off of turbine users and new pilots. Now this study has to have all the necessary smoothing ie. turbines were new but not that new anymore, no requirments, the new thing to do, etc. You get the idea. Well try to sell turbines and planes if no one can fly them without spending half as much again on a possiable one flight DF type craft. Yea right. Not to mention having to fly inverted for half a mile within two feet of the centerline and 10 feet high with flaps extended, gear down, with two nose wheels and a flashing tail light. Then there is the variable of the humans involved. From the laid back type to the military hard nose. Nope I don't have any answers. Just felt like typing. Have a good one and lets keep this clean.
ps: To the new guy,s. Want a waiver? Bet I can buy you one. Oh yea I forgot that human trait.
Have a good night gentleman! Bkf
(again IMHO) if some smart math type's out there did or will do a study (if and when these requirments ever take off)they would find a very sharp drop off of turbine users and new pilots. Now this study has to have all the necessary smoothing ie. turbines were new but not that new anymore, no requirments, the new thing to do, etc. You get the idea. Well try to sell turbines and planes if no one can fly them without spending half as much again on a possiable one flight DF type craft. Yea right. Not to mention having to fly inverted for half a mile within two feet of the centerline and 10 feet high with flaps extended, gear down, with two nose wheels and a flashing tail light. Then there is the variable of the humans involved. From the laid back type to the military hard nose. Nope I don't have any answers. Just felt like typing. Have a good one and lets keep this clean.
ps: To the new guy,s. Want a waiver? Bet I can buy you one. Oh yea I forgot that human trait.
Have a good night gentleman! Bkf
02-26-2002, 06:07 AM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Just when I thought the AMA wasn't going to throw any more hoops into the fun of flying turbines here they go again. The whole idea of buying aircraft A to become "certified" fly aircraft B with a turbine is crazy! Like Lee said, fullscale pilots have to have experience in the airplane before they are rated in it. If the FAA did ratings like the AMA that means right now I'm flying a Cessna 172 to prove I'm capable of flying a Gyrocopter. (Not realistic but I'm trying to make a point) Granted this is only a recomendation but lets get real.
Why don't we as the actual users of turbines start making some noise and stop the AMA from making more rules to hinder our flying and progression? How can we as turbine pilots enlighten the AMA guys to the fact that we are safe and can govern ourselves? Has Mr. Brown even seen a turbine fly recently? Has he himself tried to obtain a turbine waiver? Maybe these guys should have a taste of their own medicine before they start throwing their "great" ideas at us.
It's hard enough to get into modeling much less turbines. I don't see why the AMA is making it so difficult when they claim to support and encourage the hobby more than anyone in the US. Let's get active and make some changes. The USRCJC and talking with your local AMA reps would be a great way to get the ball rolling. How 'bout it guys, are we up to the challenge?
Happy Landings,
Mark West
A10flyr**the taller**
SLC, Utah
Why don't we as the actual users of turbines start making some noise and stop the AMA from making more rules to hinder our flying and progression? How can we as turbine pilots enlighten the AMA guys to the fact that we are safe and can govern ourselves? Has Mr. Brown even seen a turbine fly recently? Has he himself tried to obtain a turbine waiver? Maybe these guys should have a taste of their own medicine before they start throwing their "great" ideas at us.
It's hard enough to get into modeling much less turbines. I don't see why the AMA is making it so difficult when they claim to support and encourage the hobby more than anyone in the US. Let's get active and make some changes. The USRCJC and talking with your local AMA reps would be a great way to get the ball rolling. How 'bout it guys, are we up to the challenge?
Happy Landings,
Mark West
A10flyr**the taller**
SLC, Utah
02-26-2002, 06:18 AM
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"to the fact that we are safe and can govern ourselves"
That's a good point A10. Fliers take care of their own, help each other, and keep a lookout for the ocassional person that shows up at the field and starts to take heads off.
"Just leave us alone, We will do fine without you getting in the middle"
That's a good point A10. Fliers take care of their own, help each other, and keep a lookout for the ocassional person that shows up at the field and starts to take heads off.
"Just leave us alone, We will do fine without you getting in the middle"
02-26-2002, 06:27 AM
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you guys said what I was thinking and I dont even fly model turbines.your right the ama's logic on this one is bass ackwards.If they are worried about fires,then why not just have the prospective pilot show proficiency in start up procedure?After that,correct me if I'm wrong,but if you push the stick on left up,it goes fast,right?Just takes longer to happen.Explain that to them.If these companies as so lawsuit scared,then put a waiver of liability in with the turbine along with the warranty to return.You guys have to jump through more hoops than full scale pilots it seems,and this is supposed to be fun,correct?Way to go AMA
02-26-2002, 06:33 AM
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King: I really don't think the system is going to change. They got there foot in the door.
BTW your dog. What Brand? :-) nice looking!
BTW your dog. What Brand? :-) nice looking!
02-26-2002, 08:03 AM
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just my $.005. but since that I am not a turbine driver ( still pushing the good ole D/F). It is intresting to note that from reading the threads that I don't see anything about correct engine installation in the model along with correct placing of electronics, fuel position etc. As I recall when I first brought my ducted fan to the field the first thing my instructor inspected was for correct installations of everything. He made sure nothing was short cut or bypassed before he took the plane for the initial flight. I am thinking that all installation of hardware powerplant and electronics etc. are covered and knowledgable by the newjack on the turbine scene.
Lee
Lee
02-26-2002, 03:39 PM
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Waiver Rules
You know what the problem is? These guys are letting this stuff go to their heads. You are not issuing a type rating on a 747 here, you are checking someones competency to fly a model airplane.
Most of these guys forgot where they came from or how they got started. Did they go through some complicated checkout? Nope. Often they were known by the CD, the CD knew how they flew, signed them off and that was it.
How about the guys who were flying jets before the waiver requirement, did anyone sign them off? Of course not.
This whole thing is getting silly. It is NOT that hard to fly a turbine jet. An entry level model jet is just a high-performance model airplane with retractable gear and thrust lag. THAT'S IT. Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with a high-performance sport plane like a King Kobra can fly a BobCat or HotSpot. THERE ARE TWELVE YEAR OLDS FLYING MODEL JETS FOR PETE'S SAKE! Retractable gear? What's the big deal? Just leave it down for the first few flights!
Buddy boxes should absolutely, positively be allowed. In full size aviation simulators are used as are instructors sitting in the other seat. The Buddy Box is the equivalent in model aviation. If a CD thinks the guy can handle it, then by all means let him use a buddy box on his jet until he gets the hang of it then sign him off. These are model planes guys, model planes.
The whole CD concept should be thrown out the door. Just get guys who are experienced model jet flyers. Most guys who have flown jets a while can tell instantly if a guy can handle a model jet.
In any event, the new manuever nonsense is recommended, just like the use of a ducted fan, it's recommended, not mandatory.
.
Most of these guys forgot where they came from or how they got started. Did they go through some complicated checkout? Nope. Often they were known by the CD, the CD knew how they flew, signed them off and that was it.
How about the guys who were flying jets before the waiver requirement, did anyone sign them off? Of course not.
This whole thing is getting silly. It is NOT that hard to fly a turbine jet. An entry level model jet is just a high-performance model airplane with retractable gear and thrust lag. THAT'S IT. Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with a high-performance sport plane like a King Kobra can fly a BobCat or HotSpot. THERE ARE TWELVE YEAR OLDS FLYING MODEL JETS FOR PETE'S SAKE! Retractable gear? What's the big deal? Just leave it down for the first few flights!
Buddy boxes should absolutely, positively be allowed. In full size aviation simulators are used as are instructors sitting in the other seat. The Buddy Box is the equivalent in model aviation. If a CD thinks the guy can handle it, then by all means let him use a buddy box on his jet until he gets the hang of it then sign him off. These are model planes guys, model planes.
The whole CD concept should be thrown out the door. Just get guys who are experienced model jet flyers. Most guys who have flown jets a while can tell instantly if a guy can handle a model jet.
In any event, the new manuever nonsense is recommended, just like the use of a ducted fan, it's recommended, not mandatory.
.
02-26-2002, 04:00 PM
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Re: Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Originally posted by Silver182
Could some of the designated AMA Contest Directors that are on the sign-off list, please let us know what you think, how do you plan to handle the above described dilemma.
Could some of the designated AMA Contest Directors that are on the sign-off list, please let us know what you think, how do you plan to handle the above described dilemma.
When the AMA contacted me and asked me to be on the list, I asked the very same questions you are now asking, and more.
Bottom line as far as the discussion with Ilona went, is that regardless of the wording about "requirements", everything is in fact only a guideline, not an absolute requirement.
Supposedly, under the old waiver system, a lot of CD's who were being approached for a sign-off by a prospective turbine pilot were uneasy about doing a sign-off without knowing what kind of skills they should be requiring of the candidate. The AMA (possibly together with the JPO ?) drew up the current requirements to describe what they believe to be the "ideal" assessment procedure. They do, however, recognize that ideals are seldom achievable, so have told the Turbine CD's that they have considerable latitude in adding to, or subtracting from, the maneuvers, aircraft requirements etc. that are described in the docs.
Unfortunately, in typical AMA fashion, the communication has been a real weak point... the people who might want to get into turbine flying are not aware that "requirements" are not in fact firm requirements at all, but guidelines. This causes a lot of confusion, and ultimately bad feelings towards the AMA.
As to your question about how I will handle the dilema ... carefully. I certainly don't want to sign-off on someone who is dangerous, yet I'm not going to be anal about insisting that a candidate exactly follow the AMA "requirements". And no, I won't insist on a DF or warbird for the "check-ride", yet clearly there does have to be some "restriction" as to type - something really docile like a trainer or a pattern plane just don't seem suitable - but if someone asked for a check-ride in a 1/4 scale Lancair - heck yes!
A plan in which a turbine pilot candidate can be on the buddy box with an appropriately experienced turbine pilot for his first N flights sounds very reasonable to me. I went that route even after getting my waiver via DF's.
Later,
Gordon
02-26-2002, 05:08 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Lee,
I'm one of those future jet pilots that must obtain a waiver. I am not 100% sure that the route I'm taking is going to be the most efficient way, but here is my thinking on the deal.
First, I'm looking at the rules presented by the AMA and trying to respond in the way that will get me what I need (the waiver) in a reasonable amount of time. I want to bypass the long and tedious ducted fan route. I am counting on the phrases in the rules that say "suggested", that is, I'm counting on some real common sense in the CD/waiver holder that will examine my flying.
I am building a Super Reaper. This is normally a turbine powered sport jet kit by Mick Reeves. Being a turbine jet it is surely designed to go the 150 mph (requirement). I will outfit it for a 500 size turbine for the future, but for it's first flights it will be powered with a Moki 1.32 prop engine mounted on a pylon in the same place the turbine will eventually mount.
I will also add flaps/rear elevators even though it has canaards.
With a programmable transmitter (probably a Proffi 4000) I can modify the throttle speed to react the same as a turbine. I will get my 50 flights on this and then see if I can find a qualified Waiver Inspector. Since I live in the state of Arizona where no one is listed in the AMA, I may have to travel to California, or wait for a trip to my area by some wandering Waiver Inspector.
Will the prop powered Super Reaper reach 150 mph?? Maybe not, but maybe close. My friend flying a Vortex with only a OS .91 was able to clock his with radar at 126, fastest time with a prop that was not optimized.
Again, I'm counting on some good common sense from the Waiver Inspector. If I feel I'm ready and if he feels I'm ready, then it will happen.
I'm one of those future jet pilots that must obtain a waiver. I am not 100% sure that the route I'm taking is going to be the most efficient way, but here is my thinking on the deal.
First, I'm looking at the rules presented by the AMA and trying to respond in the way that will get me what I need (the waiver) in a reasonable amount of time. I want to bypass the long and tedious ducted fan route. I am counting on the phrases in the rules that say "suggested", that is, I'm counting on some real common sense in the CD/waiver holder that will examine my flying.
I am building a Super Reaper. This is normally a turbine powered sport jet kit by Mick Reeves. Being a turbine jet it is surely designed to go the 150 mph (requirement). I will outfit it for a 500 size turbine for the future, but for it's first flights it will be powered with a Moki 1.32 prop engine mounted on a pylon in the same place the turbine will eventually mount.
I will also add flaps/rear elevators even though it has canaards.
With a programmable transmitter (probably a Proffi 4000) I can modify the throttle speed to react the same as a turbine. I will get my 50 flights on this and then see if I can find a qualified Waiver Inspector. Since I live in the state of Arizona where no one is listed in the AMA, I may have to travel to California, or wait for a trip to my area by some wandering Waiver Inspector.
Will the prop powered Super Reaper reach 150 mph?? Maybe not, but maybe close. My friend flying a Vortex with only a OS .91 was able to clock his with radar at 126, fastest time with a prop that was not optimized.
Again, I'm counting on some good common sense from the Waiver Inspector. If I feel I'm ready and if he feels I'm ready, then it will happen.
02-26-2002, 05:39 PM
#17
Jets & the AMA
The guys in Europe and elsewhere in the world don't seem
to have all the 'rules and regulations' hovering over their heads.
(no pun intended, Eddie Weeks)
And, they seem to manage just fine 'self-governing there hobby!
Sometimes I can't understand why we Americans always feel
compeled to have someone govern our every move...what happened to 'land of the free,home of the brave'?
just my 0.02
to have all the 'rules and regulations' hovering over their heads.
(no pun intended, Eddie Weeks)
And, they seem to manage just fine 'self-governing there hobby!
Sometimes I can't understand why we Americans always feel
compeled to have someone govern our every move...what happened to 'land of the free,home of the brave'?
just my 0.02
02-26-2002, 05:55 PM
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"Sometimes I can't understand why we Americans always feel compeled to have someone govern our every move...what happened to 'land of the free,home of the brave'?"
MONEY
MONEY
02-26-2002, 06:03 PM
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AMA has it all figured out for us
The AMA has been able to conclude what the Euopeans have not, that only guys that have demonstrated high speed airplanes/ducted fans performance for 50 flights"never crash" The AMA knowing this has in fact saved the hobby from our selves. Its the old saying " Hi im from the government and im here to help"
02-27-2002, 03:11 AM
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Re: Re: Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Originally posted by Gordon Mc
Hi Lee,
When the AMA contacted me and asked me to be on the list, I asked the very same questions you are now asking, and more.
Bottom line as far as the discussion with Ilona went, is that regardless of the wording about "requirements", everything is in fact only a guideline, not an absolute requirement.
A plan in which a turbine pilot candidate can be on the buddy box with an appropriately experienced turbine pilot for his first N flights sounds very reasonable to me. I went that route even after getting my waiver via DF's.
Later,
Gordon
Hi Lee,
When the AMA contacted me and asked me to be on the list, I asked the very same questions you are now asking, and more.
Bottom line as far as the discussion with Ilona went, is that regardless of the wording about "requirements", everything is in fact only a guideline, not an absolute requirement.
A plan in which a turbine pilot candidate can be on the buddy box with an appropriately experienced turbine pilot for his first N flights sounds very reasonable to me. I went that route even after getting my waiver via DF's.
Later,
Gordon
Thanks for your ideas, and insights to this potential dilemma. I believe the buddy box system would be a good workable solution. I am sure it wouldn't take but one or two flights for a sign off or not. I could also see applicants flying with turbine power solo if the location is safe, and all parties agree. I'm sure designees will vary as much as night & day on some points.
Thanks David R for your thoughts, I too believe current turbine pilots and designees will be able to tell quickly if the applicant is qualified. When you have experienced what it takes to be successful with turbine technology it is easy to spot someone who is not up to standard.
I hope most if not all designees weigh in here so prospective Jet pilots can get feel for what to expect and prepare for. Jerry Gill is a perfect example, it sounds like he is approaching the problem in a creative way.
I think this major change by the AMA will in the long run help all concerned, I sure would have felt better if I could have buddy boxed a couple of flights two years ago with my BVM MIG. BVs team does check out flights by appointment in Florida and at Rally's which I’ve always thought was a fine service. My MIG still lives on but the assurance and experience of a check pilot would have made the maiden flight a little more comfortable. If the designees will assume a position of helping, and not control and restriction , I think this flight demonstration requirement will be good for the new wavier applicants.
Lee -------
02-27-2002, 05:08 AM
#21
Flight Demo Dilemma ??
What if your turbine powered toy can't go 150 mph? Even with two turbines?? It's always SPEED! Yes turbines CAN go fast but how many really want to go that fast all the time? Besides Jason? I like to fly my jets more scale like and not beond my ability. As Dust flyer has stated, his Diamond Dust is faster than his turbine bird!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
02-27-2002, 05:36 AM
#22
Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Originally posted by A10FLYR
What if your turbine powered toy can't go 150 mph? Even with two turbines?? It's always SPEED! Yes turbines CAN go fast but how many really want to go that fast all the time? Besides Jason? I like to fly my jets more scale like and not beond my ability. As Dust flyer has stated, his Diamond Dust is faster than his turbine bird!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
What if your turbine powered toy can't go 150 mph? Even with two turbines?? It's always SPEED! Yes turbines CAN go fast but how many really want to go that fast all the time? Besides Jason? I like to fly my jets more scale like and not beond my ability. As Dust flyer has stated, his Diamond Dust is faster than his turbine bird!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
02-27-2002, 11:59 AM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Originally posted by A10FLYR
What if your turbine powered toy can't go 150 mph? Even with two turbines?? It's always SPEED! Yes turbines CAN go fast but how many really want to go that fast all the time? Besides Jason? I like to fly my jets more scale like and not beond my ability. As Dust flyer has stated, his Diamond Dust is faster than his turbine bird!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
What if your turbine powered toy can't go 150 mph? Even with two turbines?? It's always SPEED! Yes turbines CAN go fast but how many really want to go that fast all the time? Besides Jason? I like to fly my jets more scale like and not beond my ability. As Dust flyer has stated, his Diamond Dust is faster than his turbine bird!!
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!!
Lee -------
02-27-2002, 12:13 PM
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Flight Demo Dilemma ??
Ill come and watch if you have a beer cooler
I guess I'll have to buy the old family farm back and start flying where it all began 45 years ago! No AMA, no JPO, no hecklers, no body but ME! And whomever I have the desire to invite!! [/B]
