Major glitch with AR9100: switch shortcut
02-16-2008, 06:58 PM
#51
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Sean,
The last time we talked about 2.4 power you were saying 1 single batt was ok. Do I detect a change in your line of thinking. I have just converted my F16 to 2.4 and use 1 Fromeco LiI batt with a 6v reg. My meter shows 6v at the rx and the data logger shows 5.4 at the rx. I havent run the amp meter since I changed everything out but on the 72mhz system I couldnt get a voltage drop with everything moving at the same time by stirring the sticks. Idle amps on my elevators was less than .5 and with taileron there isnt much else drawing power during a flight. F16 servos 2-8611a on elevons, rudder - 1 9411, nws 8411, brakes and gear micro's. Not a low of power requirements for my flying. Impart your wisdom oh gifted one who wears flashy PJs!
The last time we talked about 2.4 power you were saying 1 single batt was ok. Do I detect a change in your line of thinking. I have just converted my F16 to 2.4 and use 1 Fromeco LiI batt with a 6v reg. My meter shows 6v at the rx and the data logger shows 5.4 at the rx. I havent run the amp meter since I changed everything out but on the 72mhz system I couldnt get a voltage drop with everything moving at the same time by stirring the sticks. Idle amps on my elevators was less than .5 and with taileron there isnt much else drawing power during a flight. F16 servos 2-8611a on elevons, rudder - 1 9411, nws 8411, brakes and gear micro's. Not a low of power requirements for my flying. Impart your wisdom oh gifted one who wears flashy PJs!
02-16-2008, 08:59 PM
#52
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Per our phone call, and for the benefit of others, the only thing that is of concern to me is how many amps are going to be pulled in any given situation.
I don't believe any of the jets I'm currently flying (except my lightning) will pull more than 3 amps continuous or 4 or 5 short burst which puts me well withing the safety zone for 2.4 on one battery one switch. On the lightning I went with two switches two batteries because I have a mechanical bind in the flaps that I'm aware of in the up position. Two amps at idle between the two servos. I wanted to cut that down to 1 amp per battery till I figure out what I want to do about it.
The amp loads are what pulls the voltage down and gives the brown out on the 2.4, but with the "quick connect" feature, it might not mattery anyway.
I've got somewhere between 100 and 200 flights on 2.4 now, and I believe it to be very robust.
I don't believe any of the jets I'm currently flying (except my lightning) will pull more than 3 amps continuous or 4 or 5 short burst which puts me well withing the safety zone for 2.4 on one battery one switch. On the lightning I went with two switches two batteries because I have a mechanical bind in the flaps that I'm aware of in the up position. Two amps at idle between the two servos. I wanted to cut that down to 1 amp per battery till I figure out what I want to do about it.
The amp loads are what pulls the voltage down and gives the brown out on the 2.4, but with the "quick connect" feature, it might not mattery anyway.
I've got somewhere between 100 and 200 flights on 2.4 now, and I believe it to be very robust.
02-16-2008, 09:15 PM
#53
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
I am running Spektrum 2.4 on my TJ F-16 and I have 2 2600mah li-ion battieries plugged in to a Smart-Fly Super Regulator. I have Deans connectors throughout and so far I have not had any problems. I experienced a Spektrum lock-out due to a low voltage situation in early 2007 and it was due to the standard connectors I was using in a giant scale aerobatic plane.
02-16-2008, 09:36 PM
#54
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
I would caution the term "lock-out". It's not a hold, it's a reboot of the receiver due to low voltage.
Bottom line, if you want the most robust electrical system on 2.4, the answer is:
AN AR9100 WITH TWO SPEKTRUM REGULATORS, WITH EITHER TWO A123 BATTERIES, OR TWO LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES WITH CAPACITY IN THE 6000 MAH RANGE ON THE LIPOS, AND 4000 RANGE ON THE A123'S.
With the above setup, you will never have an electrical problem on 2.4. There is no "switch" involved in the above setup.
This is similar to putting a P-200 in a TGA Topcat, or killing a fly with half a pound of C4. It is today's ultimate setup for a standard aircraft, 90 percet of what is out there.
For the next level all the way up to BV F100, you need Weatronic, powerbox, or Smart Fly's system.
Bottom line, if you want the most robust electrical system on 2.4, the answer is:
AN AR9100 WITH TWO SPEKTRUM REGULATORS, WITH EITHER TWO A123 BATTERIES, OR TWO LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES WITH CAPACITY IN THE 6000 MAH RANGE ON THE LIPOS, AND 4000 RANGE ON THE A123'S.
With the above setup, you will never have an electrical problem on 2.4. There is no "switch" involved in the above setup.
This is similar to putting a P-200 in a TGA Topcat, or killing a fly with half a pound of C4. It is today's ultimate setup for a standard aircraft, 90 percet of what is out there.
For the next level all the way up to BV F100, you need Weatronic, powerbox, or Smart Fly's system.
02-16-2008, 09:53 PM
#56
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
We just flew the A-4 witht he P-60SE upgrade. The SE flew awesome in the A-4. I got the video clip can post later after dinner.
Tomorrow we will do more flying at Tracy.
KC,
Sorry for your loss.
02-17-2008, 04:50 AM
#57
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
To all 2.4 GHz users :
Did you crash your RC models with conventional 72 MHz often enough to move on to 2.4 GHz that quickly ? Technology *might* not be 100% mature ...
I have been shot down by another buddy only once during my entire RC life. And waiting 15 min during each flight (freq availability) is a good opportunity to talk with my club fellow flyers
Did you crash your RC models with conventional 72 MHz often enough to move on to 2.4 GHz that quickly ? Technology *might* not be 100% mature ...
I have been shot down by another buddy only once during my entire RC life. And waiting 15 min during each flight (freq availability) is a good opportunity to talk with my club fellow flyers
02-17-2008, 08:01 AM
#58
Thread Starter
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Read the most recent article by Danny about powering your receiver.
Doc Jones lost a 20K bvm F100. I have been preaching different power systems for the more electrically complicated airplanes for 3 years now. Last August I preached to him about how I would power such a model on 2.4. I love Doc Jones and his wife Dianna, and I hated to think "We talked about this". Dianna remembered the conversation we had last year and we talked about it a little bit over the weekend. Painful, educational, and Doc moved his other F100 back to 72 meg.
Did you setup your airplane with an amp meter? What exactly was the airplane doing when it "locked out". How high were you, how many seconds to impact. These are important questions.
On Doc's, he had a reboot that lasted 5 seconds and the jet was going straight in. The debris field was more than 100 feet in length, the engine was 50 feet from point of impact. Below the tree line, the receiver came back and he was holding full up and left and it leveled out before it hit!
I know Doc worked that electrical system out to a T, but unfornuately, he was not using smart fly reg with the 2.4 nor using a power box, weatronic, or smartfly's version. A real shame.
ORIGINAL: HotelSierra
Sean, did they find the cause of the F-4 going down? I have had about 30 successful flights on my F-15 with AR9000, two sattelites, 10X module. After every flight it records very little to no frame losses on any of the receivers. However, I did lose a P-51 on an AR6200 recently. I had a lock out without failsafe. When I retrieved the plane, all electical components worked fine and the battery showed 5.4volt (1 amp load test on a 6 volt pack). I also had about 40 flights on the aircraft prior and when the plane locked out it was on it's 4th flight of the day. I'm still looking for answers and am frankly concerned to put another aircraft in the air with Spektrum until I get some answers. [
]
Sean, did they find the cause of the F-4 going down? I have had about 30 successful flights on my F-15 with AR9000, two sattelites, 10X module. After every flight it records very little to no frame losses on any of the receivers. However, I did lose a P-51 on an AR6200 recently. I had a lock out without failsafe. When I retrieved the plane, all electical components worked fine and the battery showed 5.4volt (1 amp load test on a 6 volt pack). I also had about 40 flights on the aircraft prior and when the plane locked out it was on it's 4th flight of the day. I'm still looking for answers and am frankly concerned to put another aircraft in the air with Spektrum until I get some answers. [
]
Read the most recent article by Danny about powering your receiver.
Doc Jones lost a 20K bvm F100. I have been preaching different power systems for the more electrically complicated airplanes for 3 years now. Last August I preached to him about how I would power such a model on 2.4. I love Doc Jones and his wife Dianna, and I hated to think "We talked about this". Dianna remembered the conversation we had last year and we talked about it a little bit over the weekend. Painful, educational, and Doc moved his other F100 back to 72 meg.
Did you setup your airplane with an amp meter? What exactly was the airplane doing when it "locked out". How high were you, how many seconds to impact. These are important questions.
On Doc's, he had a reboot that lasted 5 seconds and the jet was going straight in. The debris field was more than 100 feet in length, the engine was 50 feet from point of impact. Below the tree line, the receiver came back and he was holding full up and left and it leveled out before it hit!
I know Doc worked that electrical system out to a T, but unfornuately, he was not using smart fly reg with the 2.4 nor using a power box, weatronic, or smartfly's version. A real shame.
I always setup my system using a Hall effect ampmeter like the H9 volt/amp meter. I check every servo drain on idle then moving empty the moving under load.
Then I do a "torture test" by moving all controls under load, with only one battery plugged to check the current drain on one lead. When I say "under load", I mean that I put lead on the controls to simulate aerodynamical loads. See the beginning of this post for futther detail. I write all the data for further reference.
In fact I was about to post an article on the AR9100 here because I was initially really please with this piece of hardware.
The RF link is absolutely tremendous with not a single frame lost during range checks as far as 130 meters with the plane on the ground ( engine ON, al systems ON ) turning in all positions.
I actually couldn't go further because of the airfield fence system, but the RF link was still perfect.
This is about 3 times better than the AR9000.
But the problem with the Spektrum system does not come from the RF link. It comes from the fact that the multiplex section is extremely vulnerable to EMI. In my case I had a lockout due to the crosslinked effect of the ECU + light controller on the demux chip, not the antennas.
This day I was lucky enough to have relocated one of the Rx batteries behind the main tray due to CG adjustment after the painting/scaling. So I had one battery still powering the system when I came to the plane and I always have the flight log data on board ( I use it before each flight to check if I don't have ---- showing on one antenna, which would mean that it has a problem). Here are the figures after this crash: 5/12/0/5/0/0.
No hold. Not a single frame lost. Rock solid Rf link as usual with Spektrum. Anyway all the channels locked out for about 2,5 s. I got the control back about 1/10 s too late to save the plane but just on time to save the engine and electronics ( engine shut down by switch and no fire )...
By the way here is how I setup the power system on all of my jets.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_64...tm.htm#6482230
02-17-2008, 08:17 AM
#59
Thread Starter
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
I spent the rest of my day after the morning crash trying to reproduce what happened.
So I "rebuilt" the entire system on a wood board, keeping all possible parts of the airframe together with CA glue. I managed to reproduce the problem for less than 1/2 of a second although the engine was not working ( ECU in start mode, start motor disconnected from the engine to avoid any damage to it before complete inspection ).
The flight log showed 5/1/0/0/0 at this time after 6 minutes of test. The time is certainly a factor in EMI accumulation before lockout.
The batteries were showing a solid 6.5 V at this time ( dual 2300 A123 on Deans plugs and big gauge cables )
We have had a similar problem with a Skygate Collection Hawk that crashed 10 days ago with an AMT engine and ECU 1 inch apart from the AR9000. Not a single frame loss on the flight log as usual.
This happened after approximately 3 minutes.
Same thing with a BVM F100 and Jetcat P160, Modellbau light controller about 2 inches away from the Rx, but ECU 20 inches away.
Same problem twice with two different Velox belonging to the UAE Feibao dealer. No Light controller, ECU about 10 inches away from the AR9100. No hold showing on the flightlog.
In all of these cases we have a proximity of a radiating component to the Spektrum receiver. Al of these guys are extremely skilled modeller who have built marvelous planes.
I have just sent them the link to this post so they can testify if necessary.
I will make a video of the lockout condition when I'm back from vacation.
So I "rebuilt" the entire system on a wood board, keeping all possible parts of the airframe together with CA glue. I managed to reproduce the problem for less than 1/2 of a second although the engine was not working ( ECU in start mode, start motor disconnected from the engine to avoid any damage to it before complete inspection ).
The flight log showed 5/1/0/0/0 at this time after 6 minutes of test. The time is certainly a factor in EMI accumulation before lockout.
The batteries were showing a solid 6.5 V at this time ( dual 2300 A123 on Deans plugs and big gauge cables )
We have had a similar problem with a Skygate Collection Hawk that crashed 10 days ago with an AMT engine and ECU 1 inch apart from the AR9000. Not a single frame loss on the flight log as usual.
This happened after approximately 3 minutes.
Same thing with a BVM F100 and Jetcat P160, Modellbau light controller about 2 inches away from the Rx, but ECU 20 inches away.
Same problem twice with two different Velox belonging to the UAE Feibao dealer. No Light controller, ECU about 10 inches away from the AR9100. No hold showing on the flightlog.
In all of these cases we have a proximity of a radiating component to the Spektrum receiver. Al of these guys are extremely skilled modeller who have built marvelous planes.
I have just sent them the link to this post so they can testify if necessary.
I will make a video of the lockout condition when I'm back from vacation.
02-17-2008, 09:24 AM
#60
Thread Starter
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: digitech
as a spektrum user myself
i see one thing on your setup that causes me to worry
you have a uncontrolled 6,5 voltage directly to your servo,s , without anything in between.
my self now builded a large 12 ft pilatus turboprop
i got all channesl occupied , same lightning as you have.
ecu is about 15cm away from receiver.
BUT i use a controlled 5,5 volts 10 amps buffer to feed the spektrum reciever.
this causes NO problem
i remember having issue,s on jr servo,s where when the "old" nimh 5 cell packages where full , linked servo,s would get sloppy and overheated...
just ,y opinion
also to mention i use spektrum in all my jets never had any issue,s.
i fly DX-7 and JR modules and almost all receivers..
ORIGINAL: olnico
Hello guys
I want to share my experience with you hoping that nobody will get the same problem as I had any more.
I lost worth 7000 $ in my A-4 crash this morning due to a Spektrum glitch.
I've come to this conclusion after working all the afternoon on the wreckage , re-connecting all the servos and power supply outside of the airframe and benchmarking it over and over.
It was very strange: the radio locked ( I don't use the word failsafe on purpose ) in a full thrust turn, leading to an uncontrollable engaged turn to the ground.
At no moment the failsafe engaged; the engine remained at full thrust and didn't cut as programmed and verified before the flight ( this happened during a meeting ).
I recovered the control about 1 meter before the impact that was just enought to get the wings leveled and the engine shut down by the switch ( no fire ).
Just before the flight:
and just after:
It looks like at this stage that some of the jets components have a major influence on the working of the chip of Spektrum receivers.
It seems that some radiating HF component ( probably the ECU ) locks the receiver chip by jamming it.
I've done extensive tests and this appears when the ECU and/or fuel pump are close enough to the receiver ( less than 20 cm/ 8 inches).
The RF link remains rock solid with no frames dropped and no hold showing on the flight log but the receiver locks and the servos do not move. This for a unpredictable duration ( till this chip unlocks ).
We've and 6 major glitches of this kind for the past two weeks on 5 different aircrafts and AR9000 as well as the brand new AR9100 on my A-4.
After a lot of discussions we found out that the common point on all these systems was the direct proximity of the ECU and/or fuel pump with the receiver.
On the other hand I have conducted some extensive flight tests with my Phoenix, putting more than 100 flights with the same Spektrum system and 2 different generation AR900 RX with rock solid RF performance.
Until now my trust in Spektrum was total.
Now I believe that the Spektrum RF link is extremely good but the chip design prone to a major bug...
So please, if you fly Spektrum systems make sure that you have more than 20 cm/8 inches between the RX and any radiating device like ECUs, electrical motors, switching regulators, datalink systems.
Hello guys
I want to share my experience with you hoping that nobody will get the same problem as I had any more.
I lost worth 7000 $ in my A-4 crash this morning due to a Spektrum glitch.
I've come to this conclusion after working all the afternoon on the wreckage , re-connecting all the servos and power supply outside of the airframe and benchmarking it over and over.
It was very strange: the radio locked ( I don't use the word failsafe on purpose ) in a full thrust turn, leading to an uncontrollable engaged turn to the ground.
At no moment the failsafe engaged; the engine remained at full thrust and didn't cut as programmed and verified before the flight ( this happened during a meeting ).
I recovered the control about 1 meter before the impact that was just enought to get the wings leveled and the engine shut down by the switch ( no fire ).
Just before the flight:
and just after:
It looks like at this stage that some of the jets components have a major influence on the working of the chip of Spektrum receivers.
It seems that some radiating HF component ( probably the ECU ) locks the receiver chip by jamming it.
I've done extensive tests and this appears when the ECU and/or fuel pump are close enough to the receiver ( less than 20 cm/ 8 inches).
The RF link remains rock solid with no frames dropped and no hold showing on the flight log but the receiver locks and the servos do not move. This for a unpredictable duration ( till this chip unlocks ).
We've and 6 major glitches of this kind for the past two weeks on 5 different aircrafts and AR9000 as well as the brand new AR9100 on my A-4.
After a lot of discussions we found out that the common point on all these systems was the direct proximity of the ECU and/or fuel pump with the receiver.
On the other hand I have conducted some extensive flight tests with my Phoenix, putting more than 100 flights with the same Spektrum system and 2 different generation AR900 RX with rock solid RF performance.
Until now my trust in Spektrum was total.
Now I believe that the Spektrum RF link is extremely good but the chip design prone to a major bug...
So please, if you fly Spektrum systems make sure that you have more than 20 cm/8 inches between the RX and any radiating device like ECUs, electrical motors, switching regulators, datalink systems.
i see one thing on your setup that causes me to worry
you have a uncontrolled 6,5 voltage directly to your servo,s , without anything in between.
my self now builded a large 12 ft pilatus turboprop
i got all channesl occupied , same lightning as you have.
ecu is about 15cm away from receiver.
BUT i use a controlled 5,5 volts 10 amps buffer to feed the spektrum reciever.
this causes NO problem
i remember having issue,s on jr servo,s where when the "old" nimh 5 cell packages where full , linked servo,s would get sloppy and overheated...
just ,y opinion
also to mention i use spektrum in all my jets never had any issue,s.
i fly DX-7 and JR modules and almost all receivers..
On this plane I did a 2 hour endurance test with the system ON and servo test + loads on controls. No servo overheat, no difference in servo performence.
By the way a direct LiPo setup is detailed in the AR9100 user manual.
02-17-2008, 09:57 AM
#61
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RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: olnico
This is a very pertinent feedback. But not relevent in my case since I do many torture tests to my plane before the flights.
On this plane I did a 2 hour endurance test with the system ON and servo test + loads on controls. No servo overheat, no difference in servo performence.
By the way a direct LiPo setup is detailed in the AR9100 user manual.
This is a very pertinent feedback. But not relevent in my case since I do many torture tests to my plane before the flights.
On this plane I did a 2 hour endurance test with the system ON and servo test + loads on controls. No servo overheat, no difference in servo performence.
By the way a direct LiPo setup is detailed in the AR9100 user manual.
Olnico, seems to me that you've done everything right prior to your flight. I'm very very sorry to see you gorgeous A4 damaged. I waited a year before I made my 2.4 decision and "so far" I'm very happy with it. You'll hear and read from a million rocket scientists here that know everything and change their stories every five minutes, they will tell you to do this and do that and have you run around in circles and of course blame you for your mishap. Do yourself a favor and read every feedback possible out there on every 2.4 system and see for yourself who has the best track record to date. I suggest you look into Futaba's FASST system for peace of mind.
Good Luck..
02-17-2008, 11:07 AM
#62
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Olnico,
Since you and your Mates have has a spurt of problems...all with the same receivers, could you please let us know what kinds of engines you were all using? There seems to be a pattern developing here with pump/ECU faults to the receiver.
Thank you and sorry for your loss,
Beave
Since you and your Mates have has a spurt of problems...all with the same receivers, could you please let us know what kinds of engines you were all using? There seems to be a pattern developing here with pump/ECU faults to the receiver.
Thank you and sorry for your loss,
Beave
02-17-2008, 12:26 PM
#63
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
This is a very interesting discussion. Its very hard to figure out what the real story often is with different accounts if what happened and not being able to see the whole picture. There is a claim of an issue with the FASST system on another thread that feels the same way...
In the work we do, we fight EMI all the time. Our aircraft are stuffed with more electronics than you might think possible (they get quite heavy too!). Tracking down and solving EMI issues is like Voodo - its never the same and what works in one situation might even make it worse in another. You can follow all of the best practices and every thing will seem OK, but noise is a statistical event and every so often it gets to the right level and causes a problem.
I'm not sure what technology is used in the Spektrum chips, but I'm sure its not 5V stuff and it might not even be 3.3V. Some modern processors and DRAM work with a supply voltage as low as 0.8V. When the supply voltage goes down, coupled noise from outside sources becomes a bigger issue. That is what might be the problem here - coupled noise from outside sources, *or* on the power system itself, can cause internal signals to cross the noise threshold. Flip one bit on the instruction to a processor, and it might all be over. They may have a watchdog timer that will reset the processor in case of a processor hang, but who knows how long that might take - you can usually set those up to 3 seconds or more.
It would seem to be prudent to keep these RX's away from significant noise sources - things that control or consume significant currents like ECU's fuel pumps, light controllers, etc...
Bob
In the work we do, we fight EMI all the time. Our aircraft are stuffed with more electronics than you might think possible (they get quite heavy too!). Tracking down and solving EMI issues is like Voodo - its never the same and what works in one situation might even make it worse in another. You can follow all of the best practices and every thing will seem OK, but noise is a statistical event and every so often it gets to the right level and causes a problem.
I'm not sure what technology is used in the Spektrum chips, but I'm sure its not 5V stuff and it might not even be 3.3V. Some modern processors and DRAM work with a supply voltage as low as 0.8V. When the supply voltage goes down, coupled noise from outside sources becomes a bigger issue. That is what might be the problem here - coupled noise from outside sources, *or* on the power system itself, can cause internal signals to cross the noise threshold. Flip one bit on the instruction to a processor, and it might all be over. They may have a watchdog timer that will reset the processor in case of a processor hang, but who knows how long that might take - you can usually set those up to 3 seconds or more.
It would seem to be prudent to keep these RX's away from significant noise sources - things that control or consume significant currents like ECU's fuel pumps, light controllers, etc...
Bob
02-17-2008, 12:48 PM
#64
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Bob, here's my question, if you have something producing noise on 72 megaherz, how can it be producing noise in the 2.4 gigaherz range at the same time?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
02-17-2008, 01:06 PM
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RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Bob, here's my question, if you have something producing noise on 72 megaherz, how can it be producing noise in the 2.4 gigaherz range at the same time?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
Bob, here's my question, if you have something producing noise on 72 megaherz, how can it be producing noise in the 2.4 gigaherz range at the same time?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
Lee
02-17-2008, 01:20 PM
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RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
A simple analogy would be that the receiver package has a Radio receiver section that hears 2.4gHz (like ears) and a processor section that decides what to do with the received information (like a brain).
My interpretation of the original posters problem as stated, is that unintended noise entering directly, or indirectly into the brain (and not necessarily through the ears) confused and froze the brain even if the 'ears' were hearing perfectly the 2.4 ghz intended signal. This would be the same if the 'ears' could hear 72mHz or 2.4gHz.
My interpretation of the original posters problem as stated, is that unintended noise entering directly, or indirectly into the brain (and not necessarily through the ears) confused and froze the brain even if the 'ears' were hearing perfectly the 2.4 ghz intended signal. This would be the same if the 'ears' could hear 72mHz or 2.4gHz.
02-17-2008, 01:27 PM
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RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
" There is a claim of an issue with the FASST system on another thread that feels the same way... "
This is true. If you dig into the Radio forums both here at RCU, and over on Groups, you will find that XPS, Futaba FASST, and Spektrum all have some issues. Some more .... Some less. ( Just like FM & PCM
)
Of the 2.4 systems having less problems, it's probably Spektrum/JR. Their reboot voltage is specified at 3.5 v. just slightly higher then the others. Think about that ...... 3.5 volts ! ! ! Any knowledgeable R/Cer, who allows his voltage to drop lower then 4 volts at any time during his flight, should perhaps start looking for another hobby. ( There is always Model Railroading.
)
Using the recommended steps outlined by Spektrum for providing adequate battery capacity, no one should have an issue with this system. In most every case, the Spektrum " issue ", has been with the builder of the model, and/or radio installation.
> Jim
This is true. If you dig into the Radio forums both here at RCU, and over on Groups, you will find that XPS, Futaba FASST, and Spektrum all have some issues. Some more .... Some less. ( Just like FM & PCM
) Of the 2.4 systems having less problems, it's probably Spektrum/JR. Their reboot voltage is specified at 3.5 v. just slightly higher then the others. Think about that ...... 3.5 volts ! ! ! Any knowledgeable R/Cer, who allows his voltage to drop lower then 4 volts at any time during his flight, should perhaps start looking for another hobby. ( There is always Model Railroading.
) Using the recommended steps outlined by Spektrum for providing adequate battery capacity, no one should have an issue with this system. In most every case, the Spektrum " issue ", has been with the builder of the model, and/or radio installation.
> Jim
02-17-2008, 02:13 PM
#68
Thread Starter
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: Greg G
A simple analogy would be that the receiver package has a Radio receiver section that hears 2.4gHz (like ears) and a processor section that decides what to do with the received information (like a brain).
My interpretation of the original posters problem as stated, is that unintended noise entering directly, or indirectly into the brain (and not necessarily through the ears) confused and froze the brain even if the 'ears' were hearing perfectly the 2.4 ghz intended signal. This would be the same if the 'ears' could hear 72mHz or 2.4gHz.
A simple analogy would be that the receiver package has a Radio receiver section that hears 2.4gHz (like ears) and a processor section that decides what to do with the received information (like a brain).
My interpretation of the original posters problem as stated, is that unintended noise entering directly, or indirectly into the brain (and not necessarily through the ears) confused and froze the brain even if the 'ears' were hearing perfectly the 2.4 ghz intended signal. This would be the same if the 'ears' could hear 72mHz or 2.4gHz.
In the specific Spektrum case they have a beautifull and rock solid Rf section that get spoiled by a very vulnerable central system. The way to go would be to shield the Rx and do extensive radio checks for more than 6 minutes with the engine running...
02-17-2008, 02:27 PM
#69
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Sorry for your loss (was a beautiful plane)...
Interesting findings, kinda rules out power and RF issues. One question for my mind; assumming this receiver has the quick connect feature, did u notice the flashing led's when u powered up again?? My guess is probably not (cannot see it happening if the rcvr did lock up)...
Have you informed Spektrum with this information??
Interesting findings, kinda rules out power and RF issues. One question for my mind; assumming this receiver has the quick connect feature, did u notice the flashing led's when u powered up again?? My guess is probably not (cannot see it happening if the rcvr did lock up)...
Have you informed Spektrum with this information??
02-17-2008, 03:26 PM
#70
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RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Does anyone know if the new JR 12X 2.4GHz system has been designed so the user, similar to Futaba, can load software updates? If not that could be a major reason not to purchase. I have owned the 10 channel series JR's since they came out, as far as I know there never has been updates available. Programming because of it's nature, (designed by human's, for humans's) should always be changeable / upgradeable.
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
02-17-2008, 05:09 PM
#71
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Bob, here's my question, if you have something producing noise on 72 megaherz, how can it be producing noise in the 2.4 gigaherz range at the same time?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
Bob, here's my question, if you have something producing noise on 72 megaherz, how can it be producing noise in the 2.4 gigaherz range at the same time?
I don't understand, and no one has been able to tell me, how any of the problems associated with 72 can follow over to 2.4, the frequency is so much higher.
Can someone scope a running pump and tell what range approx it is creating in RF noise? Am I off base in my thinking?
The guys above have explained it fairly well. The issue MAY be that the noise from some source may be getting directly into the processor or some other logic inside the Spektrum RX and causing a problem there. It would have to be a fairly large noise source and the Spektrum unit would have to be fairly sensitive in this regard, but it could happen - and it could also be infrequent enough to be hard to track down and seem "random." A brushed pump motor, because of the arcing of the brushes, is pretty noisy. The motor speed controller in the ECU can also be noisy. Its speculation at this point, but if this is the culprit, the frequency can be anywhere (although its likely to be even lower than 72 MHz) and all you have to do is get abouve the switching threshold of some logic in the processor and its off into the weeds and the system effectively "locks up."
Its going to be a tough one to debug...
Bob
02-17-2008, 05:30 PM
#73
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
ORIGINAL: seanreit
I would caution the term "lock-out". It's not a hold, it's a reboot of the receiver due to low voltage.
Bottom line, if you want the most robust electrical system on 2.4, the answer is:
AN AR9100 WITH TWO SPEKTRUM REGULATORS, WITH EITHER TWO A123 BATTERIES, OR TWO LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES WITH CAPACITY IN THE 6000 MAH RANGE ON THE LIPOS, AND 4000 RANGE ON THE A123'S.
With the above setup, you will never have an electrical problem on 2.4. There is no "switch" involved in the above setup.
This is similar to putting a P-200 in a TGA Topcat, or killing a fly with half a pound of C4. It is today's ultimate setup for a standard aircraft, 90 percet of what is out there.
For the next level all the way up to BV F100, you need Weatronic, powerbox, or Smart Fly's system.
I would caution the term "lock-out". It's not a hold, it's a reboot of the receiver due to low voltage.
Bottom line, if you want the most robust electrical system on 2.4, the answer is:
AN AR9100 WITH TWO SPEKTRUM REGULATORS, WITH EITHER TWO A123 BATTERIES, OR TWO LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES WITH CAPACITY IN THE 6000 MAH RANGE ON THE LIPOS, AND 4000 RANGE ON THE A123'S.
With the above setup, you will never have an electrical problem on 2.4. There is no "switch" involved in the above setup.
This is similar to putting a P-200 in a TGA Topcat, or killing a fly with half a pound of C4. It is today's ultimate setup for a standard aircraft, 90 percet of what is out there.
For the next level all the way up to BV F100, you need Weatronic, powerbox, or Smart Fly's system.
i run a 20 ft model
ar9000
2 1800mah lipos thru a 5 amp emcotec bic (120usd)
works perfect
more =less sometimes
02-17-2008, 06:16 PM
#74
RE: Major glitch with Spektrum system and jets
Digitech wrote....<<more =less sometimes >>
Imo this is the theme of the entire thread...
Just about every jet guy in our club here in Phoenix has had zero issues with AR9000 equipped planes running on eveything from one good 6volt nicad to high end powerbox / duralites.
V..
Imo this is the theme of the entire thread...
Just about every jet guy in our club here in Phoenix has had zero issues with AR9000 equipped planes running on eveything from one good 6volt nicad to high end powerbox / duralites.
V..