Gordito Volador

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Tom, I agree with you. Several guys here for many reasons have the axe out for FT. Heck, he isn't on my social calendar or birthday card list either and doesn't know my name. However, I'm not going to spit in the eyes of the guys that have done so much for us in the past by making our voices count at the AMA. I for one don't know how FT got nominated with no one to run against him. Maybe some one at the JPO can enlighten us. In the meanwhile I'll chill my jets and see how this immediate crisis plays out. Then perhaps the leadership issue can be resolved without reducing our numbers and strength. I'm sure not gonna' quit because of it.

I also take it as a major slam when "Old Guys" get blamed for every problem at the flying field. Gimme a break. Someday you guys will be over 30 also.

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

I wonder what Michel de Montaigne would think about this thread-[X(]

But a "wonderful thing".....Nah! more like Martha Stewart's "It's a good thing" at best.

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

Tom

I respect what JPO has done as I joined very early on, let my membership lapse due to inactivity in Jets, and then rejoined as soon a I started flying jets again. I thinks it's important to support our SIG.

What I don't understand is why there has been no comment or solicitation by the current JPO Board on any of these matters. They are the leaders and guiding management for JPO. All we as menbers can do is make comments and vote with our checkbooks. I brought up the issue on the October event a number of months ago and was thoroughly trashed for even bringing up the subject.

Maybe it's a non issue to the AMA or JPO? I sent an e-mail question to the current AMA President asking for there official position on an AMA member participating in FT's event and was told they were aware of the event and had not determined an official AMA position regarding participation.

I am actually not resigning but will not rejoin until I see some type of movement one way or the other on this issue. If there is a better way I am open to it. If AMA & JPO feel all of this is a non issue then I need to re-think the issue!

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

Hear.......Hear...................Lets fix it!!!!!!!

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Hmmm... I wonder... which of these 2 possibilities might be more up old Michel's street:
[ul][*] "Let's see if we can discuss this calmly and logically" [*] (from EITHER side of the current debate) : "I'm right, you're wrong, so everyone should just shut the #*%% up, and the mod's better delete this thread NOW !!!!"
[/ul]
Martha 'the rules don't apply to me" Stewart ? I sure hope she's not the new JPO role-model !! [X(][X(][8D]

Later,
Gordon

AndyAndrews

Well said.

1Eye

My Feedback: (2)

I, as a JPO district rep., nominated Frank Tiano as a candidate for election to the office of JPO President - Stephen Ellzey had announced he would not be running for reelection. There were no other nominees for that office. Similarly I might point out there is not and never has been a line around the block queued up as candidates for virtually any JPO elected office. Actual "elections" comprising more than one candidate are far and few between. As a result, the organization is made up of essentially all volunteers in the truest sense of the word - to include the secretary/treasurer (Mrs. Susan Moore) and the editor of Contrails (Dr. Greg Moore).
In our district (9), the former JPO rep. decided to not run for reelection. I volunteered as a candidate - nobody opposed me with their candidacy. Guess what?
There was a short period of time where I too questioned the value of any AMA SIG, let alone JPO. But I decided to suck up the Kool Aid and try to be a part of the solution to try to get the organization on the right track. In the context of that objective I have repeatedly sought advice and input from fellow district members - I've received zilch. Despite the engaging comments from Keith and some of the positive responses, my sense is that not much good will come from this thread. JPO will simply regroup.

ghost_rider

My Feedback: (20)

Mr. Antlfinger

I’m awfully sorry that you felt the way you did. You are 100% entitled to your opinion just like I’m entitled to mine. Sometimes we have to disagree on different issues and that is the uniqueness between individuals.

Now, let it be know that Mr. Tom Cooks is my very good friend and I know that if you call and ask him he will vouch to that. Tom is a COMPLETE GENTLEMAN and I’ve made it know is other posts here on RCU. He is not the type of person that will stir the pot. When I first head of what happened, I called my good friend Tom and spoke to him at length. I reached a semi agreement with him that I would ask those individuals involved in the misunderstanding to call and smoothen things out. Being the type of individual that Tom is, he was willing to go that route. I placed a call to the event CD and asked him to call Tom and work things out. I for one do not see anything wrong or offensive in Tom’s letter to the club but rather find their reply asking him not to attend their event in the future rather very offensive. In my books, that was not the appropriate way to resolve sensitive issues and I’ve made my opinion know to those involved.

Let it be know that I have spent countless hours at different Jet events under the directives of Mr. Shipley collecting dues and registering new members. I have attended numerous AMA EC meetings at Muncie whenever JPO agenda are up for discussions. I have in the past like Gordon mentioned in one of his posts given items away to entice and encourage JPO membership drive. I took it upon myself every year despite RCU solicitation rule to solicite for new members and prompt old ones to renew their membeship by making sticky here in the Jet forum. Couple of years ago when AMA wanted JPO to put an event at the HQ, I was contacted by the then President (Mr. Elzey) to whom I have the uttermost respect for to arrange and organize the event and I willingly accepted it. Unfortunately, the event did not materialize because of conflict in scheduling at the AMA HQ.

With that said, my gripe is not about what happened at the event, but the action of our current JPO President. Instead of trying to smoothen things out, he approved the publication of his e-mail that solicited others not to participate at a certain Jet event. To me that is a slap on the face and defeats all those had works I’ve put into soliciting and recruiting new JPO members. I expect more tactful approach to this problem from my Mr. President. Please not that I did not approve the publication of that e-mail. The current JPO President did and as such he should be held accountable for his actions. If my memory servers me right, the first turbine waiver revocation ever made by AMA originated from him because of the dispute he had with his former employee after that individual resigned. Few years ago, the same person allowed bunch of pilots to fly at his event without AMA turbine waivers and thereafter pleading ignorance of the facts. Come on, give me a break!!!. If you have to chastise another CD because of simple lapse in judgment, you should look back and take a very good look at you own events.

In closing, I would still maintain that those involved owns Tom an apology based on their reply to his concerns. Not doing so would unleash the wrath of the ghost whenever the opportunity presents itself and curse be to the day I was born if I will not speak out when the time comes.

Best Regards

Ben

Hustler58

My Feedback: (1)

WOW, this has been amazing! I have not been a member of JPO since the first year. But I will tell you now, I will join since all the whinners are leaving. I have read 2 post that made sence, Tom P. and Kevin W. You all keep em coming, it make's my dumb ***** feel smarter. Butch

AndyAndrews

[quote]ORIGINAL: ghost_rider


It appears to me that Frank was trying to support Tom's position as a fellow event sponsor. ie copy of his open letter to the event Board:

-
Permission granted:

"Because of the Rude and entirely Disrespectful response to Tom Cook’s concerns, FTE and ZAP will no longer support

this event, and any other event that treats a responsible, concerned individual in this manner, especially when he is

part of our industry. After speaking with other manufacturers and distributors in the hobby industry,

I feel confident they will follow suit. The last thing any sponsor needs is to be sued because of something that

could have been prevented, especially if the pilot is using some equipment manufactured or distributed by the sponsor.

And believe me, IF something happens, “everybody� gets sued!



FTE INC.

Frank Tiano Enterprises

Alloys-Now, ZAP Adhesives,

Top Gun, Florida Jets

3607 Ventura Drive East

Lakeland Fl 33811

863-607-6611

863-607-6602 Fax

www.franktiano.com website

[email protected] e-mail"

-


I don't really see how this has turned into a JPO issue other than the fact that Patrick Frost is a JPO regional and he was the CD for this event.

I looks like Frank was trying to support Tom to me. I also feel like Frank should have called Patrick before making this decision. Especially since Patrick is a JPO official. Common courtesey would have dictated that IMO. Maybe he did, I don't know. I think this whole thing could have been worked out with a couple of phone calls. There was no need, what so ever, to turn it into what it has become. Actually, I think it could still be worked out if the individuals involved would just talk to each other. BUT,,, This is the risk that JPO has taken by appointing someone as president who is commercially connected to these events and this hobby. Because Frank has infused his business into this debate he has inadvertantly caused damage to JPO. Maybe he should recuse himself from it by offering his resignation. JPO cannot by any means be associated (in any way) in an issue revolved around commercial strong arming an event regardless of whether or not the intention was well intended. JPO needs to remain NEUTRAL in these issues and can't afford to be seen as being bias toward vendors VS events or individuals.

I for one do not intend to resign my membership of JPO. I think we all need to "hang in there" and make it better instead of cutting and running.

Andy

AndyAndrews

[quote]ORIGINAL: ghost_rider


It appears to me that Frank was trying to support Tom's position as a fellow event sponsor. ie copy of his open letter to the event Board:

-
Permission granted:

"Because of the Rude and entirely Disrespectful response to Tom Cook’s concerns, FTE and ZAP will no longer support

this event, and any other event that treats a responsible, concerned individual in this manner, especially when he is

part of our industry. After speaking with other manufacturers and distributors in the hobby industry,

I feel confident they will follow suit. The last thing any sponsor needs is to be sued because of something that

could have been prevented, especially if the pilot is using some equipment manufactured or distributed by the sponsor.

And believe me, IF something happens, “everybody� gets sued!



FTE INC.

Frank Tiano Enterprises

Alloys-Now, ZAP Adhesives,

Top Gun, Florida Jets

3607 Ventura Drive East

Lakeland Fl 33811

863-607-6611

863-607-6602 Fax

www.franktiano.com website

[email protected] e-mail"

-


I don't really see how this has turned into a JPO issue other than the fact that Patrick Frost is a JPO regional and he was the CD for this event.

I looks like Frank was trying to support Tom to me. I also feel like Frank should have called Patrick before making this decision. Especially since Patrick is a JPO official. Common courtesey would have dictated that IMO. Maybe he did, I don't know. I think this whole thing could have been worked out with a couple of phone calls. There was no need, what so ever, to turn it into what it has become. Actually, I think it could still be worked out if the individuals involved would just talk to each other. BUT,,, This is the risk that JPO has taken by appointing someone as president who is commercially connected to these events and this hobby. Because Frank has infused his business into this debate he has inadvertantly caused damage to JPO. Maybe he should recuse himself from it by offering his resignation. JPO cannot by any means be associated (in any way) in an issue revolved around commercial strong arming an event regardless of whether or not the intention was well intended. JPO needs to remain NEUTRAL in these issues and can't afford to be seen as being bias toward vendors VS events or individuals.

I for one do not intend to resign my membership of JPO. I think we all need to "hang in there" and make it better instead of cutting and running.

Andy

AndyAndrews

lol, I think my post was nuked. oh well. so be it. But I don't see why showing the letter that actually caused this probem is an issue. Some people here actually would like to know. Nuke away.

zemkes_wolfpack

My Feedback: (5)

Andy,

I sent you a PM and an email as to why I nuked your posts. If the original authors of the emails want them posted here then let them post them on here. I will not allow a secondary party to post them here.

In all fairness to everyone, what is to stop someone from editing either of the emails and then posting them here? That is why I am limiting it to original authors only.

Thank You for your understanding.

Jim

AndyAndrews

Alright, let me reinterate without actually posting a copy of the letter. It appears that FT actually was taking up for Tom Cook by siding with him against the board members of the rally. Unfortunately, one of the board members is Patrick Frost who is also a JPO regional and from what I have gathered the CD for the event. Tom Cook sent a letter to the event board complaining about safety issues and also that he was not formally recognized for his donation to the event.

The board in return sent a terse letter back to Tom which got published on a board. In retaliation and in support of Tom, a fellow Vendor of the event and possibley friend, FT sent in a letter saying that he is withdrawing his support from this event in the future and had also spoken to others encouraging the same.

My basic premise was that, by doing so FT has inadvertently caused JPO damage. Before publishing this open and very public letter, he should have talked to Patrick Frost first and actually worked things out. Apparently this was not done. Common courtesy would have dictated it. Instead FT has reacted completely in a way that, whether justified or not, was in his commercial interests. No matter what he or others think, he cannot separate himself from JPO by these actions. JPO should be an organization that is COMPLETELY un-bias toward the hobby, its events and individuals and organizers. JPO should be a completely NEUTRAL organization. Othewise, it will risk loosing the general support of ALL jet pilots. As a result, Frank should either rectify this situation or recuse himself of JPO by offering his resignation as it's president.

Im do not intend to resign my membership to JPO becasue of this issue. We should strive to make it better and improve it and support it. The guys running it are volunteers. Give them a break. I know they will ultimately make the right decisions. Running away from a problem doesn't solve anything.

Andy

zemkes_wolfpack

My Feedback: (5)

Andy,

Thank you very much for understanding where I am coming from. I am hoping to avoid some of the past problems here on RCU and yet still let everyone voice their opinions while being fair and unbiased.

Best Regards,

Jim

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

I'm not sure I'm following you. In 6 posts in this thread you have gone from "where do I find out what happened" to "I know they will ultimately make the right decisions".

Where are you getting this information that you know the right decisions will be made?

Mike, and particularly Tom Antlefinger, please don't take my position to mean that I am not supportive of an organization that keeps us in with the AMA. I am. I believe every member of the JPO and officers with the exception of FT. have altruistic goals with their volunteering.

As a member of JPO, I feel like I have no say in who the president of the JPO is. Can anyone tell me why I should be a member of an organization that does not have a process in order to fix what I consider, and have considered a problem since I first heard that Steve was stepping down and FT was taking the helm..........

AndyAndrews

All I am saying is that for JPO to survive it needs to remain a neutral organization. By saying that they will make the "right decisions", I am confident that the ultimate goal of the organization is to defend jet pilots the best way that it can. Any needed corrections that need to be made will be done in the interest of the organization and its members.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

So how do you explain the no weight limit rally that FT is putting on, basically sticking it to the AMA? At least that is my opinion of what he is doing.

Eddie Weeks tried to do the same thing that Tiano is doing a couple years ago, and the Then JPO president contacted the local city, undermined the whole thing and ultimately it did not happen. Several pilots were building a specific jet for the event, I was one of them.

How was it not ok then, and ok now? All these issues came up then, if I had the time to find the thread, I would. You should look it up. There was a bunch of emails that were going around at the time, a lot of them got posted no where, but if I posted them, it would shock you what the JPO was doing to prevent that event.

However it could be argued that they were doing what they did to keep our relationship with the AMA in good standing. I'm not privy to the AMA's position on FT's event. But I find this whole thing very interesting.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Let me put it another way. I was not happy with some of the things Steve did, but overall, I always believed he was the right guy for the job. I would pay quadruple the yearly fee if I knew he was going to be the president over the next five years. When FT became president, I had already paid for 07 and 08. I would not have prepaid, had I known about Tiano. It was not published prior to it happening, at least from any of my documentation.

AndyAndrews

So how do you explain the no weight limit rally that FT is putting on, basically sticking it to the AMA? At least that is my opinion of what he is doing.

Eddie Weeks tried to do the same thing that Tiano is doing a couple years ago, and the Then JPO president contacted the local city, undermined the whole thing and ultimately it did not happen. Several pilots were building a specific jet for the event, I was one of them.[/quote]

As the JPO president, I think that this is somewhat of a conflict. Especially, if JPO and AMA are so closely linked. I certainly wouldn't want to take part in that event without having some sort of liabilty insurance other than my own homeowners. I guess a fellow has the right to do what he wants. It does not though, in my opinion reflect, positively upon JPO which has in it's stated mission to work within AMA guidlines. It's like saying and agreeing to one thing and then doing another..[/quote]



How was it not ok then, and ok now? All these issues came up then, if I had the time to find the thread, I would. You should look it up. There was a bunch of emails that were going around at the time, a lot of them got posted no where, but if I posted them, it would shock you what the JPO was doing to prevent that event.
[/quote]

I think that the JPO should remain connected to AMA and continue to work with them in implementing common sense guidlines as it is related to AMA maintaining its liability coverage to waivered pilots. They should remain consistant or at least state their intentions to effect a change within the AMA guidlines.[/quote]


[/quote]
However it could be argued that they were doing what they did to keep our relationship with the AMA in good standing. I'm not privy to the AMA's position on FT's event. But I find this whole thing very interesting.
[/quote]

I agree with you these things are interesting. If FT can convince AMA that a giant scale event is really a good thing and doesn't have any real affect on the safety of jet flying then more power to him. But is this now an official stance of JPO?? I think that they should continue to keep in good standing with AMA. JPO needs to look into this. Apparently there is a contradiction here that does not seem to be fair and equal treatment. Like I said before, I believe FT should either correct these issues by officially addressing them to the membership, and AMA or step down.

Kevin_W

My Feedback: (1)

There is a process:
But it will take a lot more effort and courage to pursue than simply resigning, and there is always the chance that the majority will not support your position.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Ya, I read that, and I believe the power of self preservation by the board would be an easier way to achieve what I ultimately want. I would rather have membership drop off, and have the board adapt, than try to win over guys to have the position filled by someone else.

Are you interested in the position Kevin? Cause I would support you in a heartbeat.

I tried to make changes here locally, and I won using very strong tactics, ultimately, the club president undermined everything by going to local City Authorities, to win. I considered fighting back in a very harsh way, but have shown incredible patience. And even at that, I ended up with the guys from the MS. Gang telling me that they did not want to associate with me anymore, and the locks to my trailer glued.

I'm not sure who these cooler heads are, but if you are one of them, I would support you, and a whole slew of others. I just don't have the home numbers of those who can make real decisions, and I can't understand how Frank can continue to stay in office, with so many displeased with his past and current actions.

c/f

My Feedback: (1)

BUNS is it you AGAIN?? First the SEFF, "I'm here flight" now Piss'n off TC..?

MR Reid I personally have seen Tom flying in many midwest events in last few years and always enjoy watching the yet to be duplicated on any airframe vapor trails. Dont agree with a jealousy surpassing comment.

I have however noticed your absence in the midwest, events in recent years, your Jetcat flameout at Superman on a 200mph pass show center and stair stepping it down on the runway over 100mph was most impressive.

As a 30+ year modelr I get really annoyed hearing how good a pilot is as a disclaimer for close in flying @ 200MPH, when I as an engineer cant help but realize this electronic stuff is purchased and assembled third world on price, lowest bidder versus quality. .02

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Based on what I've read here, and only here..........

When does FT represents JPO and when does he represent his own person (business)? Who determines that? Did he ever stated that JPO was banning XYZ event? Or did he said that in quality of his entrepenourship he would not support XYZ event?

If FT has a questionable reputation between jet pilots, then perhaps it wasn't wise to make him the president. Oh weel it's done, elect him out next time.
But I think it is unffair to hold JPO accountable for any "questionable act" that FT or any other JPO leadership for that matter may commit.

Just my .01 Euros.

David

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

c/f,

Again I was not at the meet but was told by several that were there the passes in question were done at the far side of the runway (which the CD defined as the safe zone for high speed passes) Knowing the individuals involved, and knowing the airframes, both of which make a unique noise that I commented on at the recent winamac meet. The noise made me think it was a lot closer than it was even though I was standing on the flightline and watching it pass. The AMA through our SIG JPO has defined 200 mph as a safe speed to be flying despite our "inferior" electronics, there are a lot of flights made at every jet meet with those same "third world" electronics that do not ever have a problem. A safe responsible pilot is making sure he is not directing the enrgy of his aiplane at the crowd at any time. My disclaimer if you read it again is not just a "good" pilot, it was "good, and safe" pilot. I still stand on the fact that form the sounds of things Tom arrived at the event already having a bad day about something. We all get that way sometimes.

DR