Kometfreak

Are you the Uncle Joe who is the Airworld ME 262 guru? If so, I wish to pick your mind. I have been waiting to fly mine for a long time, now that the batteries have caught up with the EDF requirements.

Roy

PS: I tried to send you a pm but it kicked.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

I had a very bad day at the Airport yesterday. The day started out beautiful. Plenty of sunshine, temps in the 60’s (great this time of year) and little to no wind. I was excited to fly the F-5E and also test fly the new F-4J. I logged two perfect flights on the F-5E and could not wipe the smile off my face. The new gear door cylinders did their job keeping the doors closed (the will creep open a bit and the long nose gear might not close at 120 psi but 130 psi everything is locked tight) and I continued to explore the F-5E flight envelope. Knife edge passes were very pretty as were the usual jet style maneuvers. I had a lot of fun flying by at ½ power about 2 feet off the runway and holding it the entire length before pulling up. I decided to log a third flight on the F-5E before maidening the Phantom and I went through my usual preflight checks that I do before EVERY flight. Here is a copy of the pre flight checklist in my jets. They do vary slightly from jet to jet depending on special circumstances but all the basics are standard:

F-5E Preflight Checklist

• Control Surfaces Secure
• Air/Elec Lines Clear of Turbine
• Filters Clean (Ck 10 Flts)
• RX Battery Check
• ECU Battery Check
• Fuel On Board
• Test Gear
• Gear Doors Secure
• Air/Elec lines Clear of LG
• Gear / Brakes Pumped
• Control Surfaces Free And Correct
• Model Into Wind
• Fire Extinguisher Ready

Take off was normal and I flew the pattern setting up for my first maneuver…a high speed pass down the runway. I was on centerline, 20 feet above the runway and straight as can be . My flying buddy looked up from where he was working on his Mig and thought…nice pass (he told me this later). Aprox 200 feet after the jet passed me to the right there was a slight right aileron (maybe) input and a violent full down elevator input. The jet impacted the edge of the runway and into the grass an exploded just like David Shulman’s jet did. The resulting fire destroyed everything I had worked so hard on. The turbine was recovered about 400 feet farther forward of the impact and was is bad shape. That was a bran new P-160SX with 8 flights on it. Now possible junk. In an instant I was out about 8K. The engine did not flame out and my failsafe is set to hold so we quickly assumed something failed on the airframe and we suspected the tork tubes in the left stab. This was a mistake.

After cleaning the debris from the airport (a huge undertaking) I was a bit dull emotionally but not broken spirited. I placed my Futaba 12FGA on charge to top it off before flying the Phantom. All the ususall pre flight checks were done to the F-4 as well a long list of other things that I do before a maiden including a very extensive range test with the turbine running. Every thing was 100% perfect. The big F-4J was prepared for flight and taxied out to the center line. This thing taxis better than any jet I have ever had thanks to that huge wheel base. The take off roll was straight as an arrow and I needed some right aileron trim to maintain wings level. A bit of up was need too. Upon my second lap I completed my turn now aligned with the runway straight and level and exactly abeam but farther West of the F-5E crash site when the nose of the Phantom pitched down 15-20 degrees and my elevator stick went dead. The jet was positioned about 200 feet in the air and continued on the gentle decent all the way into the ground!! The phantom and all components were completely destroyed. The fate of the turbine…another bran new P-160SX is questionable. I am now out over 15K!! Complete inspections of the F-4 / F-5 stabs, linkages, servos revealed that they were all intact. There was no structural failure or mechanical failure. Some thing must be wrong with the transmitter. I never would have committed my beautiful pride and joy to the skies if I had suspected there was a radio problem. The transmitter is a Futaba 12FGA FASST with the 6014 receivers in each jet. I purchased this new last year and logged over 175 jet flights without incident. I am left with a lot of unanswered questions and absolutely have no confidence in the equipment at this point. If I would have found some concrete evidence of what caused these crashes I would feel a lot better. But instead I have no answers and will always wonder when this may happen gain. The feeling of being totally out of control is sickening. The transmitter is the only common denominator between the two incidents and both failures were with a down elevator input. If the radio failsafed, all controls would have held their last position and the engines would have flamed out. This did not happen in either case. Either the radio Failed (bad gimble or something) or I was somehow shot down and the 2.4 is not infallible. I tested the elevator gimble by selecting servo monitor and the bar graph looked fine. So again I am left with unanswered questions that really make me question my future options.

pbusa1400

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that. This really $ucks the not knowing what caused it.[&o]

i3dm

My Feedback: (51)

Dom,

Thats horrible ! Im so sorry to hear that.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

Befor and after..

avicom

My Feedback: (14)

What?[sm=eek.gif] Two jets totaled in same day? It's a shame Dom, I feel your pain. Sorry to hear that. I hope you can determine what went wrong.

Alex

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Dom,

I am SO sorry for what happened to you. It makes me queezy just to think about it.

I had an eerily similar experience with my T-45 two weeks ago ([link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8604940]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8604940[/link]). Although I was using the 608 receiver, I also was using a 12FG transmitter and FASST. It was not a failsafe or a receiver power failure and I attributed it to a linkage failure or a pipe collapse, but now I am not so sure...

I have literally hundreds of flights on FASST in some really demanding conditions, so I am confident in the RF link in FASST. However, I have limited experience with the 12FG transmitter and although I love it as far as function and programming, I'm not to the point where I can feel its bullet proof. I've never had any problem with it until I lost the T-45. Not knowing exactly what the problem was really sucks...

I don't know man, maybe I should go back to flying with my 9C and fly the 12FG on my small stuff until I have more time on it...

Are you going to send the TX back to Futaba?

Bob

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

Right now I have no plans to ever use that transmitter again. I may just buy another new 12FGA and send this one back to Futaba. After it gets a clean bill of health I will sell it really cheap and fully disclose to the buyer the details of my experience. The thing that sucks is not knowing what happened. I am blaming it on the transmitter but have no other explanation. Two jets, two down elevator commands, no failsafe and no engine cut off....what else am I to believe. Unless I had genuine interference that FASST did not protect me from.

BuschBarber

My Feedback: (2)

Dom - I just cannot believe this happened. You are so meticulous when it comes to Preparation and Execution. It had to be either the Tx or some kind of Interference yet to be determined. I know how much Heart and Soul you put into every project and the Passion is admirable. There are no words to express how sorry I am that this has happened.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

Thanks for the kind words my friend.

G4guy

My Feedback: (13)

Dom,
I am really sorry about your loss. Sounds like the TX to me also. I know you will find the problem.

Talk to you soon,

Ron

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Dom,

I don't think it was interference. We lost a UAV on FASST to interference from an on-board video system. It was a 1.2 GHz system that was VERY noisy on 2.4 GHz (the 1st harmonic). In that case, all we saw was a decrease in range. In fact, if it had been a normal size plane that we would have kept closer, it would have been fine, but since it was a big (13 foot wingspan) UAV that we fly further out, we eventually got outside the reduced range envelope and it went into failsafe. This video transmitter was putting out somewhere around a Watt of power in the 2.4 GHz band and was right next to the receiver, and the link still performed OK except for the reduced range. The packet coding used in the 2.4 GHz systems is such that its nearly impossible for interference to corrupt the data in such a way that erroneous data is received by the RX - it either gets valid packets from the TX, or it doesn't.

You either had two on-board failures of the same type (possible, but unlikely) or there is a problem with your TX (and maybe mine)

Bob

BuschBarber

My Feedback: (2)

Dom said that neither system went into Failsafe.

For Turbine powered jets, AMA requires us to set up Failsafe so that when the signal is lost, the Throttle goes to Idle. If the signal does not return within 2 seconds, the engine shuts off.

From what Dom reported, it did not sound like a Failsafe event happened.

With JetCat Turbines, the last 4 sec of activity is recorded in memory on the ECU (the computer that controls the turbine). If it is still intact, after a crash, it is possible to check to see if there was a Failsafe event, or some other factor affecting the engine, that might correlate with what caused the controls to glitch.

afterburner

My Feedback: (18)

Dom,
Really sorry for these two losses. The worst part other than the financial is not knowing like you said. I was with Bob when he lost his plane two weeks ago and not knowing definitevely is the most troubling. I too have been using the 12FG on 2.4 and have not had any issues. Just wondering if the problem was on the other end. Could it be a Rx issue? Were both Rx's new or taken out of another plane? What model Rx's were they? When were they purchased? Maybe Futaba had a bad run of Rx's or components. Also, was anyone else flying FASST equipment yesterday? Sorry for all these questions but hopefully some answers may come from these losses helping all of us.

Marty

jseppanen

Terrible news, I'm really sorry to hear this Dom!!

Last september I had similar trouble with my 14MZ. Didn't lose a plane or anything - but it was close! I had uncommanded up elevator while flying my SM Hawk straight and level. At first thought it was turbulence or something and landed the plane safely. Took off with another plane, 150cc CompArf MX2, and flew a few minutes with no trouble. Then while hovering a couple of metres off the ground, suddenly full up elevator!! Plane jumped towards me but luckily I was able to push it out, climb away and land...after that the elevator channel was going mad - lots of sudden elevator movements clearly visible in 'servo monitor' view, some full up, some smaller...elevator stick potentiometer failure!

Sent the tx to service. All pots changed and no problems since.

Hope you get it solved out!

Rgds, Janne

3DHELINUT

My Feedback: (3)

Dom I am truly sorry for your loss!

Did you have engine control or control of any of the channels on the aircraft in the last few seconds? Download the ecu data from both engines if you can and look at the RX voltage and failsafe data.


again I am sorry!!!


Alan

causeitflies

Oh man Dom, that's terrible! I feel sick for you.
I almost coancelled my plans yesterday to come and give you a hand but wouldn't have beem there til late.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

Thanks for the kind words guys.
I'm just cleaning up the turbines now and have not tried to download any info.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

Here are the turbines. I will speak with Bob Wilcox today and see what he thinks about repairs.

General Jake

Dom,
did anyone get video of the crash? Just wondering how close the deflections were for the 2 jets?
Chris

Kometfreak

My wallet cries just reading about it and the loss of all the time spent building.

Does the new Futaba radios have an optional flight data recorder available?

Makes me wonder if Futaba got a bad batch of pot's from their vendor. I think that JR has a recall on one of theirs for a similar issue.

Frank Alvarez

Dom,

Very sorry to hear of your unidentified system mystery, and the loss of two wonderful aircraft.
Many of the responses are directing a possible fault within the radio, perhaps the folks at Futaba may be able to put your mind at ease with a TX assesment.
Chin up my freind,
Frank.

RCISFUN

My Feedback: (44)

Bob don't get lulled into false confidence on the Futaba 9C, I have a 9C Super which was about a year old last summer and I lost two jets in a row (two consecutive weekends) due to the aileron gimbals going bad
I also know of another 9C putting in a jet due to a bad aileron gimbal.

I had another radio that I took the gimbal out of and replaced it in the Super, so I never did send the original gimbal back I figured that Futaba wouldn't do anything, I have it on the shelf if someone from Futaba wants to take a look at it.

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

Dom
Sorry to hear about your losses.[] If it were me ,I would take a few weeks off ,spend time with the family,take them on a weekend away from home now that spring has sprung. Enjoy Life! & remember its a sport/hobby .

Semper Fi
Joe

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Rich,

Thanks for the info. Way back when, when I was flying Airtronics, I lost a helicopter to a glitch on a PCM system (which again, shouldn't happen on any PCM system, 72 MHz or 2.4...) I sent the TX back to Airtronics and they replaced some gimbal parts and then, after about 10 or so flights, it happened again (this time I didn't loose the heli). That's when I switched to Futaba, and until now, never have had any problems that I couldn't trace to something *other* than the TX and RX.

I'm kind of like Dom right now in that I really don't know what is the best course of action. These intermittent failures of unknown origin are the scariest and most discouraging part of the hobby, and until two weeks ago, I had not been hit by one that *could* have been caused by the TX or RX...

My 9C is 4 or 5 years old right now and is the closest thing I have to bullet-proof proven (although I guess it could have a wear-out caused failure). I currently have 2 flyable jets, the Euro and the F-15. I just moved the Euro over to the 12FG about 20 flights ago and the F-15 started out, and is still on, the 9C. I think I'll go back to flying the jets on the 9C for just a bit while I fly a bunch of prop planes on the 12FG just to reaffirm my confidence in that TX. In my case, I only lost one airplane and there are a number of different things that could have caused the crash, so maybe after 30 or 40 OK flights I can convince myself to put the 12FG back on my jets.

In Dom's case, I don't *want* to believe that the TX caused it, but that possibility has to be at the top of the list...

Bob