Monster planes, any photos or info
10-22-2008, 10:13 AM
#126
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
As I see it, after watching the video and reading the posts, there many issues to blame and not just one. There are plenty of Should have, Could have, Would have's....
1st. The Hawk pilot should have called an emergency loud enough, and also could have attempted to land the aircraft past the pilot stations.....Many pilots witnessed the same thing at LBJR when a pilot with gear problems tried to land before the pilots and behind the flight line, which ended up with him crashing the aircraft.
2nd. flight stations, we all use the same type. a little red fence held together with plastic pipe or a set up very close too.... there is a need to improve this and make it safer for the pilots....
3rd. the spotter. I have seen it at many jet rally's and so have you, where the spotter stands by you and watching your jet rip through the sky.... the spotter is just a busy as the pilot watching everything else that the pilot can not see....
so, do we still blame one person? or does the blame get shared amoung many issues that lead to a very sad mishap of an outstanding aircraft?
I some how feel the final outcome of this tragic crash might set some new standards for flight line operations in the future...
At just about all the events I attend, the flight stations are right there next to the runway, Do we move them back? Improve our flight station saftey fence?
Mark
1st. The Hawk pilot should have called an emergency loud enough, and also could have attempted to land the aircraft past the pilot stations.....Many pilots witnessed the same thing at LBJR when a pilot with gear problems tried to land before the pilots and behind the flight line, which ended up with him crashing the aircraft.
2nd. flight stations, we all use the same type. a little red fence held together with plastic pipe or a set up very close too.... there is a need to improve this and make it safer for the pilots....
3rd. the spotter. I have seen it at many jet rally's and so have you, where the spotter stands by you and watching your jet rip through the sky.... the spotter is just a busy as the pilot watching everything else that the pilot can not see....
so, do we still blame one person? or does the blame get shared amoung many issues that lead to a very sad mishap of an outstanding aircraft?
I some how feel the final outcome of this tragic crash might set some new standards for flight line operations in the future...
At just about all the events I attend, the flight stations are right there next to the runway, Do we move them back? Improve our flight station saftey fence?
Mark
10-22-2008, 11:55 AM
#127
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
I know what to do...make spotter waivers, go to school, practice and get a check ride with an AMA approved spotter waiver checker outer. The bottom line it that these are model airplanes and they do crash. We've all done it and will all do it again. The Hawk guy didnt do it on purpose and I'm sure he feels bad about it. Every time we go fly we assume the chance of a less that stellar finish, that's the chance we take. If you want to be perfectly safe we need to build bunkers with crashproof window to look through or only fly alone. If this had been a sweet stick it wouldnt have made the news. Yeah, if it were my Hog I'd be po'd too but unfortunately that's life. Let's just start sueing each other for mishaps at the flying field and then see how well our hobby progresses!
10-22-2008, 12:04 PM
#128
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: tp777fo
If you want to be perfectly safe we need to build bunkers with crashproof window to look through or only fly alone.
If you want to be perfectly safe we need to build bunkers with crashproof window to look through or only fly alone.
Gordon
10-22-2008, 01:24 PM
#129
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
My thoughts on this tragic event is that the lack of an adequate barrier/fence should take most (if not all) of the blame. Why are fences/barriers required ? I believe it is to protect the pilot(s) from basically this EXACT scenario. If I were to come up with a scenario or presentation on why we want/need barriers .... it would probably describe just what happened here. If the fence/barrier had done what it was supposed to do .... Bob would not have lost his beautiful A10 and we would not even be discussing the event .... this thread would not even exist.
Yes, the Hawk pilot and/or the spotter could have done things a bit differently ..... but their actions are being disected after the fact ... in hindsite .... that's a bit unfair.
Bob
Yes, the Hawk pilot and/or the spotter could have done things a bit differently ..... but their actions are being disected after the fact ... in hindsite .... that's a bit unfair.
Bob
10-22-2008, 02:41 PM
#130
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: BalsaBob
If the fence/barrier had done what it was supposed to do .... Bob would not have lost his beautiful A10 and we would not even be discussing the event .... this thread would not even exist.
Yes, the Hawk pilot and/or the spotter could have done things a bit differently ..... but their actions are being disected after the fact ... in hindsite .... that's a bit unfair.
Bob
If the fence/barrier had done what it was supposed to do .... Bob would not have lost his beautiful A10 and we would not even be discussing the event .... this thread would not even exist.
Yes, the Hawk pilot and/or the spotter could have done things a bit differently ..... but their actions are being disected after the fact ... in hindsite .... that's a bit unfair.
Bob
10-22-2008, 03:14 PM
#132
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: A10FLYR
From the looks of that video there would not have been enough time to drag the pilot out of the way.
A good spotter should have jumped in front of the Hawk to save the pilot!
From the looks of that video there would not have been enough time to drag the pilot out of the way.
A good spotter should have jumped in front of the Hawk to save the pilot!
10-22-2008, 03:41 PM
#133
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
No matter where fault may lie, hopefully all pilots, spotters will have learned from this and be aware of whats going on during your pilots flight, all the years of flying and spotting, we are more concerned whats going on in the air and watching out for full scale, that we tend to forget the 2 most important part of being a spotter, and that is watching all take offs and landings for the safety of your pilot and yourself, and in the end a pilot will have his jet return with no outside situations. I think figuring out who is at blame here should end and start thinking about us being a better spotter Everyone here in this forum has at one time or another made a mistake, so let the pilots involved figure it out.
Joe C!!
Joe C!!
10-22-2008, 03:51 PM
#134
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
While it is really easy to get caught up in placing blame and name calling, (Sally)maybe the better use of this tragic occurrence is to learn and enact corrections to the obvious mistakes that were made.
1. Pilot barriers should actually be capable of stopping a misdirected aircraft. At Ky Jets pilots stood behind several layers of hay bales. Nothing short of a fullscale would have gotten thru those! Jorge, I think that Gulfstream woulda done it You're welcome! At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.
2. Pilot's spotters have to be aware of what's happening around their pilots, on the ground, as well as in the air. I think being aware of the status of any aircraft taking off or on final to land should be priority ONE. Those are the aircraft closest to the pilot and therefore highest potential for danger.
3. At events, where the number of planes in the air, waiting to fly, starting up etc can get quite large, I believe there needs to be a ground controller with a bullhorn to announce all takeoffs and landings such that there is no way the pilots and spotters are not aware of what's happening. individuals do not always call their intentions loud enough for them to be heard all along the flight line. My first and only experience with the FL Jets flight line convinced me not to fly there anymore. For me, it was just way to hectic to be able to enjoy my flight. I had to go around five times on one occasion because people kept pulling out onto the runway to takeoff while I was on final. Finally had to land right over another plane on the runway starting it's takeoff run.
I know we are all concerned about the investment in time and money we have in these aircraft, but let's not lose sight of the fact that crashing a plane pales in comparison to a person suffering great bodily injury or possibly losing their life. Bob Levine is a very lucky man!! Had that plane hit him a foot or two higher, instead of just sweeping him off his feet, we might be having an entirely different discussion!
David S
1. Pilot barriers should actually be capable of stopping a misdirected aircraft. At Ky Jets pilots stood behind several layers of hay bales. Nothing short of a fullscale would have gotten thru those! Jorge, I think that Gulfstream woulda done it
You're welcome! At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.2. Pilot's spotters have to be aware of what's happening around their pilots, on the ground, as well as in the air. I think being aware of the status of any aircraft taking off or on final to land should be priority ONE. Those are the aircraft closest to the pilot and therefore highest potential for danger.
3. At events, where the number of planes in the air, waiting to fly, starting up etc can get quite large, I believe there needs to be a ground controller with a bullhorn to announce all takeoffs and landings such that there is no way the pilots and spotters are not aware of what's happening. individuals do not always call their intentions loud enough for them to be heard all along the flight line. My first and only experience with the FL Jets flight line convinced me not to fly there anymore. For me, it was just way to hectic to be able to enjoy my flight. I had to go around five times on one occasion because people kept pulling out onto the runway to takeoff while I was on final. Finally had to land right over another plane on the runway starting it's takeoff run.
I know we are all concerned about the investment in time and money we have in these aircraft, but let's not lose sight of the fact that crashing a plane pales in comparison to a person suffering great bodily injury or possibly losing their life. Bob Levine is a very lucky man!! Had that plane hit him a foot or two higher, instead of just sweeping him off his feet, we might be having an entirely different discussion!
David S
10-22-2008, 04:02 PM
#135
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
FWIW, I was there (about 30 feet). The flight line controller warned the pilot and the spotter that a plane was landing
that had issues with the landing gear. To the controllers surprise he was ignored. There was never a question the landing
plane had issues; they were obvious to all for at least 2 laps prior to the landing. It was a bad accident that could have been
much worse.
Dee
that had issues with the landing gear. To the controllers surprise he was ignored. There was never a question the landing
plane had issues; they were obvious to all for at least 2 laps prior to the landing. It was a bad accident that could have been
much worse.
Dee
10-22-2008, 04:25 PM
#136
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
[/ul]DCM wrote: If that Hawk pilot can't land on a runway that wide and long ( full scale), He should't be flying jets in public.
Regards,
JC
10-22-2008, 05:49 PM
#137
Senior Member
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: David Searles
At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.
At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.
Joey C. is da man! Oooooooooooooooooohhhhh!
And I think Dougee Fresh would agree
Important to note that this was a perfectly good landing on the centerline when the steering cable broke and the model just gradually veered left into the pilot stations. But a great spotter is aware of all landings and take-offs, as well as watching other traffic in the air. Had there been an issue called out before landing, I wouldn't be surprised if all the pilot stations would have been semi-vacated prior to touchdown. We're just that "on top of it" out here in Cali
"Safe and sane jet flying at it's best", to quote a clip from the CA Jets '08 movie.
This post is not inferring anything about the spotter involved in the 'Monster Planes" event. Just an interesting spotter story.
Paul
10-22-2008, 07:11 PM
#138
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: SDCrashmaster
Actually, to correct this just a tad...the model actually partially collapsed the first heavy 2"x4" with chicken wire barrier it hit (station 2), pushed it into the second barrier (3) and moved that whole shebang another 3-4 feet. But while that was happening, the pilot in the "soon to be toast" barrier had been "spotter-grabbed" by his shoulders and pulled back away from the malée. Lots of inertia here. My first post in this thread mentioned that I've seen spotters "worth their weight in gold". That was in reference to this CA-Jets '07 incident.
Joey C. is da man! Oooooooooooooooooohhhhh!
And I think Dougee Fresh would agree
Actually, to correct this just a tad...the model actually partially collapsed the first heavy 2"x4" with chicken wire barrier it hit (station 2), pushed it into the second barrier (3) and moved that whole shebang another 3-4 feet. But while that was happening, the pilot in the "soon to be toast" barrier had been "spotter-grabbed" by his shoulders and pulled back away from the malée. Lots of inertia here. My first post in this thread mentioned that I've seen spotters "worth their weight in gold". That was in reference to this CA-Jets '07 incident.
Joey C. is da man! Oooooooooooooooooohhhhh!
And I think Dougee Fresh would agree
The behaviour of EACH and every part of the system in that CA Jets case – pilot, spotter, barrier, etc. were ALL crucial to a safe outcome, and had any one of those components been of lesser quality then we'd probably not have had such a happy ending. A good barrier doesn't mean that the spotter can be lackadaisical about his responsibilities, but neither does having a good spotter mean that we should be satisfied with inferior barriers. Gotta try to make each component of the system contribute sufficientely towards the overall safety.
10-22-2008, 07:15 PM
#139
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
200 lb. water cans, easiest setup to stop a jet, maybe I should use two of them. Or maybe straw bales. Or maybe 2''x2''s with plastic netting. or maybe these guys should be standing on this side of the concrete barriers.
Sorry to here about your loss Bob, it was a great looking Jet.
Rcpete
PS, the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDe90Xx27YM
Sorry to here about your loss Bob, it was a great looking Jet.
Rcpete
PS, the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDe90Xx27YM
10-22-2008, 09:26 PM
#140
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: f16jc
No matter where fault may lie, hopefully all pilots, spotters will have learned from this and be aware of whats going on during your pilots flight, all the years of flying and spotting, we are more concerned whats going on in the air and watching out for full scale, that we tend to forget the 2 most important part of being a spotter, and that is watching all take offs and landings for the safety of your pilot and yourself, and in the end a pilot will have his jet return with no outside situations. I think figuring out who is at blame here should end and start thinking about us being a better spotter Everyone here in this forum has at one time or another made a mistake, so let the pilots involved figure it out.
Joe C!!
No matter where fault may lie, hopefully all pilots, spotters will have learned from this and be aware of whats going on during your pilots flight, all the years of flying and spotting, we are more concerned whats going on in the air and watching out for full scale, that we tend to forget the 2 most important part of being a spotter, and that is watching all take offs and landings for the safety of your pilot and yourself, and in the end a pilot will have his jet return with no outside situations. I think figuring out who is at blame here should end and start thinking about us being a better spotter Everyone here in this forum has at one time or another made a mistake, so let the pilots involved figure it out.
Joe C!!
ORIGINAL: David Searles
While it is really easy to get caught up in placing blame and name calling, (Sally)maybe the better use of this tragic occurrence is to learn and enact corrections to the obvious mistakes that were made.
1. Pilot barriers should actually be capable of stopping a misdirected aircraft. At Ky Jets pilots stood behind several layers of hay bales. Nothing short of a fullscale would have gotten thru those! Jorge, I think that Gulfstream woulda done it You're welcome! At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.
2. Pilot's spotters have to be aware of what's happening around their pilots, on the ground, as well as in the air. I think being aware of the status of any aircraft taking off or on final to land should be priority ONE. Those are the aircraft closest to the pilot and therefore highest potential for danger.
3. At events, where the number of planes in the air, waiting to fly, starting up etc can get quite large, I believe there needs to be a ground controller with a bullhorn to announce all takeoffs and landings such that there is no way the pilots and spotters are not aware of what's happening. individuals do not always call their intentions loud enough for them to be heard all along the flight line. My first and only experience with the FL Jets flight line convinced me not to fly there anymore. For me, it was just way to hectic to be able to enjoy my flight. I had to go around five times on one occasion because people kept pulling out onto the runway to takeoff while I was on final. Finally had to land right over another plane on the runway starting it's takeoff run.
I know we are all concerned about the investment in time and money we have in these aircraft, but let's not lose sight of the fact that crashing a plane pales in comparison to a person suffering great bodily injury or possibly losing their life. Bob Levine is a very lucky man!! Had that plane hit him a foot or two higher, instead of just sweeping him off his feet, we might be having an entirely different discussion!
While it is really easy to get caught up in placing blame and name calling, (Sally)maybe the better use of this tragic occurrence is to learn and enact corrections to the obvious mistakes that were made.
1. Pilot barriers should actually be capable of stopping a misdirected aircraft. At Ky Jets pilots stood behind several layers of hay bales. Nothing short of a fullscale would have gotten thru those! Jorge, I think that Gulfstream woulda done it You're welcome! At CA Jets a couple years ago, one of our best pilots lost steering control of his Yellow F-18 on landing, because the nose steering arm broke.(just to show it can happen to anyone) The plane slammed at almost full speed into the heavy 2x4 and wire constructed pilot stations, and when it hit it barely moved the barrier. If the barrier is not capable of stopping the aircraft, it's useless.
2. Pilot's spotters have to be aware of what's happening around their pilots, on the ground, as well as in the air. I think being aware of the status of any aircraft taking off or on final to land should be priority ONE. Those are the aircraft closest to the pilot and therefore highest potential for danger.
3. At events, where the number of planes in the air, waiting to fly, starting up etc can get quite large, I believe there needs to be a ground controller with a bullhorn to announce all takeoffs and landings such that there is no way the pilots and spotters are not aware of what's happening. individuals do not always call their intentions loud enough for them to be heard all along the flight line. My first and only experience with the FL Jets flight line convinced me not to fly there anymore. For me, it was just way to hectic to be able to enjoy my flight. I had to go around five times on one occasion because people kept pulling out onto the runway to takeoff while I was on final. Finally had to land right over another plane on the runway starting it's takeoff run.
I know we are all concerned about the investment in time and money we have in these aircraft, but let's not lose sight of the fact that crashing a plane pales in comparison to a person suffering great bodily injury or possibly losing their life. Bob Levine is a very lucky man!! Had that plane hit him a foot or two higher, instead of just sweeping him off his feet, we might be having an entirely different discussion!
10-22-2008, 10:50 PM
#141
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: rcpete347
200 lb. water cans, easiest setup to stop a jet, maybe I should use two of them. Or maybe straw bales. Or maybe 2''x2''s with plastic netting. or maybe these guys should be standing on this side of the concrete barriers.
Sorry to here about your loss Bob, it was a great looking Jet.
Rcpete
PS, the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDe90Xx27YM
200 lb. water cans, easiest setup to stop a jet, maybe I should use two of them. Or maybe straw bales. Or maybe 2''x2''s with plastic netting. or maybe these guys should be standing on this side of the concrete barriers.
Sorry to here about your loss Bob, it was a great looking Jet.
Rcpete
PS, the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDe90Xx27YM
Spotter yacking on the phone!!!! No Bueno!!!! To quote THE DONALD, " YOUR FIRED"!!!!
10-22-2008, 11:16 PM
#142
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDe90Xx27YM
The video reports it incorrectly; it was an event worker (yellow shirt) on the phone, the spotter was the guy in the red shirt. We're told he goes by the name Sally and he jumps like a girlyman!!!!
Doug,
You were very fortunate to have a situationally-aware spotter grab you before the F-18 nailed your pilot station. From what I hear, you did a awesome piloting job saving your plane. Sorry to hear you can't make it Mesa.
Regards,
Jim
ORIGINAL: AFTERBURNER1
Spotter yacking on the phone!!!! No Bueno!!!! To quote THE DONALD, " YOUR FIRED"!!!!
Spotter yacking on the phone!!!! No Bueno!!!! To quote THE DONALD, " YOUR FIRED"!!!!
ORIGINAL: Dee Miller
FWIW, I was there (about 30 feet). The flight line controller warned the pilot and the spotter that a plane was landing
that had issues with the landing gear. To the controllers surprise he was ignored. There was never a question the landing
plane had issues; they were obvious to all for at least 2 laps prior to the landing. It was a bad accident that could have been
much worse.
Dee
FWIW, I was there (about 30 feet). The flight line controller warned the pilot and the spotter that a plane was landing
that had issues with the landing gear. To the controllers surprise he was ignored. There was never a question the landing
plane had issues; they were obvious to all for at least 2 laps prior to the landing. It was a bad accident that could have been
much worse.
Dee
Doug,
You were very fortunate to have a situationally-aware spotter grab you before the F-18 nailed your pilot station. From what I hear, you did a awesome piloting job saving your plane. Sorry to hear you can't make it Mesa.
Regards,
Jim
10-23-2008, 02:47 PM
#147
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
Hi,
Here's my 2 cents.
Anytime ANY aircraft of this size has a gear problem where the pilot and caller are absolutley positive
one MAIN GEAR will not extend, be it a jet or a prop job, the pilot should consider only two courses
of action. One is to retract the gear and make a belly landing, in the adjacent grass if there is any, otherwise,
on the far side of the runway, on the hard surface. Or two, IF the gear just cannot be retracted again, the model
should be put down as far away from the runway activity as posible. Had this jet landed upright, had it not stalled,
nobody knows what the resulting trajectory might have been with one gear extended.
Certainly, with one tire spinning and one wingtip dragging, it would not have continued straight down the ruway!
Regardless of what engine powered the model.
For all future events we are considering a 4 foot high "U" shaped fixture for each pilot to stand behind while flying.
In addition to the flight line barrier. We will also remind "Callers" of their most important job. This was an unfortunate accident. It
wasn't on purpose!
Surely the pilot of the L-39 feels awful! Why do some of us feel a need to make him feel worse? Put yourself in his position. You can't
take it back, there ain't no "do-overs". I am so thankful that Bob Levine wasn't seriously injured AND pleased that he showed such class
by his reacting in a civil manner once he got over the shock of the incident.
BTW, 2010 Florida Jets, Top Gun and Monster Planes will require 2.4 radios.
FT
Here's my 2 cents.
Anytime ANY aircraft of this size has a gear problem where the pilot and caller are absolutley positive
one MAIN GEAR will not extend, be it a jet or a prop job, the pilot should consider only two courses
of action. One is to retract the gear and make a belly landing, in the adjacent grass if there is any, otherwise,
on the far side of the runway, on the hard surface. Or two, IF the gear just cannot be retracted again, the model
should be put down as far away from the runway activity as posible. Had this jet landed upright, had it not stalled,
nobody knows what the resulting trajectory might have been with one gear extended.
Certainly, with one tire spinning and one wingtip dragging, it would not have continued straight down the ruway!
Regardless of what engine powered the model.
For all future events we are considering a 4 foot high "U" shaped fixture for each pilot to stand behind while flying.
In addition to the flight line barrier. We will also remind "Callers" of their most important job. This was an unfortunate accident. It
wasn't on purpose!
Surely the pilot of the L-39 feels awful! Why do some of us feel a need to make him feel worse? Put yourself in his position. You can't
take it back, there ain't no "do-overs". I am so thankful that Bob Levine wasn't seriously injured AND pleased that he showed such class
by his reacting in a civil manner once he got over the shock of the incident.
BTW, 2010 Florida Jets, Top Gun and Monster Planes will require 2.4 radios.
FT
10-25-2008, 08:38 PM
#148
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
Pilot stations would have saved this mans plane, thank god he is alright its just $25,000.00 plane $100.00 worth of PVC and neting could have changed the outcome.
10-25-2008, 09:36 PM
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RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
ORIGINAL: capflyr
Pilot stations would have saved this mans plane, thank god he is alright its just $25,000.00 plane $100.00 worth of PVC and neting could have changed the outcome.
Pilot stations would have saved this mans plane, thank god he is alright its just $25,000.00 plane $100.00 worth of PVC and neting could have changed the outcome.
no but really there should have been a better safty barrier
10-25-2008, 10:29 PM
#150
RE: Monster planes, any photos or info
Like I said a shame, with no comment about the barriers or the facilities at all, why can't the A-10 owner just make an insurance claim? Seems like he has a pretty good case that the only reason he lost the plane is the interference of the Hawk?