Ram 500R Parameters
03-20-2015, 10:55 PM
#26
Thanks guys.
Bob, thank you for a quick answer, but i live in Europe.
Im just afraid that the phone call would last long time, since we do not have a turbine flyer population and all i know i learned by my self.
My story goes like this.
I purchased a jetcat p 120, and absolutely have no problem with it.
After that, i wanted a smaller turbine.
Since im a aeronautical engineer, i decided to buy ram 500, since i understood that it do take some skill to use them.
I learned very little from my cat. It start every time, runs fine, cools it self....
Ram was another matter. I bought it without batteries and as soon as i conected a 2 s lipo it burned the starter engine.
I carefully changed the speed 300 engine and switched to 2 s life.
I tried to start it few times,but it was completely dead.
I disambled the outer case and saw that glow plug element was not out enough to protrude in to combustion chamber.
As soon as i extracted it little more, i got it to run.
It runed fine, but the problems with reliable start was still present.
After few starts, i had an issue with propane valve.
It worked when gas tank was empty, but when i filled it with gas, it didnt want to open. I exchanged the valve but nothing changed.
At that time, i pulled out the gas tank and complete gas instalation, including the gas valve, and start starting it directly from gas can.
I open a gas only to hear that it flows, and than push the start button.
After hearing that ignition started, i just open a gas little more.
It worked every time.
The main thing to know is that glow plug ignites only at the beggining of start process and it ignites for only one second.
So if you do not have a ignition at the very first moment, it wont start at all.
However, the problems with starter still persisted.
I echanged two speed 300 starter motors and a very few o rings.
Since i own my own hydraulic systems repair shop, i was able to find a high quality viton o ring, wich is still on my engine, lasting over 20 starts .
On many occasions i had problem that when ecu starts the starter motor, the voltage drops and since the voltage drop is detected, ecu aborts the start.
The cure for that was that i spin the motor on hand held unit, and to start the starting sequence, during his spinning.
That routine worked nice but recharging the batteries after every flight was almost a must.
At the end, i instaled a relay wich was driven by ecu starter cable, but i powered the starter by separate 6 v lead acid accu,wich i conect by a jack, while starting.
It worked fine, but i was anoyed by fact that i had to conect the very same battery also during shut down, just to let ecu cool the engine down.
Sadly, i crashed my jet last year, but now ram is being fitted to a new airplane.
Now, here is my question,
Why my propane valve does not work when the gas tank is full?
Is it posible to revork the ecu, so i could switch to 2s lipo?
Can a starting routine be changed so the spining of starter motor start with some kind of soft start?
The last would help with voltage drop and surely help with speed 300 life span.
My ecu is with 03 version.
All sugestion are highly apreciated, since, guys, im all alone here with my turbines.
Thank you
Bob, thank you for a quick answer, but i live in Europe.
Im just afraid that the phone call would last long time, since we do not have a turbine flyer population and all i know i learned by my self.
My story goes like this.
I purchased a jetcat p 120, and absolutely have no problem with it.
After that, i wanted a smaller turbine.
Since im a aeronautical engineer, i decided to buy ram 500, since i understood that it do take some skill to use them.
I learned very little from my cat. It start every time, runs fine, cools it self....
Ram was another matter. I bought it without batteries and as soon as i conected a 2 s lipo it burned the starter engine.
I carefully changed the speed 300 engine and switched to 2 s life.
I tried to start it few times,but it was completely dead.
I disambled the outer case and saw that glow plug element was not out enough to protrude in to combustion chamber.
As soon as i extracted it little more, i got it to run.
It runed fine, but the problems with reliable start was still present.
After few starts, i had an issue with propane valve.
It worked when gas tank was empty, but when i filled it with gas, it didnt want to open. I exchanged the valve but nothing changed.
At that time, i pulled out the gas tank and complete gas instalation, including the gas valve, and start starting it directly from gas can.
I open a gas only to hear that it flows, and than push the start button.
After hearing that ignition started, i just open a gas little more.
It worked every time.
The main thing to know is that glow plug ignites only at the beggining of start process and it ignites for only one second.
So if you do not have a ignition at the very first moment, it wont start at all.
However, the problems with starter still persisted.
I echanged two speed 300 starter motors and a very few o rings.
Since i own my own hydraulic systems repair shop, i was able to find a high quality viton o ring, wich is still on my engine, lasting over 20 starts .
On many occasions i had problem that when ecu starts the starter motor, the voltage drops and since the voltage drop is detected, ecu aborts the start.
The cure for that was that i spin the motor on hand held unit, and to start the starting sequence, during his spinning.
That routine worked nice but recharging the batteries after every flight was almost a must.
At the end, i instaled a relay wich was driven by ecu starter cable, but i powered the starter by separate 6 v lead acid accu,wich i conect by a jack, while starting.
It worked fine, but i was anoyed by fact that i had to conect the very same battery also during shut down, just to let ecu cool the engine down.
Sadly, i crashed my jet last year, but now ram is being fitted to a new airplane.
Now, here is my question,
Why my propane valve does not work when the gas tank is full?
Is it posible to revork the ecu, so i could switch to 2s lipo?
Can a starting routine be changed so the spining of starter motor start with some kind of soft start?
The last would help with voltage drop and surely help with speed 300 life span.
My ecu is with 03 version.
All sugestion are highly apreciated, since, guys, im all alone here with my turbines.
Thank you
Might I suggest that you change the ECU to a Xicoy unit, they are not expensive. I believe the RAM 500 (which I originally used to power my first Bobcat back in 2001, its flying again today with a PST 600) is very similar to a Wren 54 or PST 600 and I can give you the basic parameters to set up the ECU. No doubt some fine tuning will be required but the Xicoy is very easy to adjust.
I have changed the ECUs of 3 of my PSTs (600 and 1300) to Xicoy with excellent results, and a the latest Xicoy controls my kero start Wren SuperSport and Gold 44s. and my new Jets Munt 100 also has a Xicoy ECU so I base my recommendation on some experience.
Good luck,
David
03-21-2015, 02:44 AM
#27
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Coka,
I have a FTE-500, similar to RAM 500, and had Bob Price upgrade the ECU to Ver. R03B with improved starting results. The best glowplug is the Rossi R-8 followed by the OPS RC-300 with the elements teased out about 3 mm. It is best to first anneal the elements by applying 1.5V to them before extension. The recommended battery is a 2S LiPo of at least 2200 mAh capacity and a 35C rating. I still use the Coleman Powermax starting gas but "camping gas" is similar and should be available in Europe. You must invert the canister to flow liquefied gas into the turbine's gas container. I also use a Jet Cat container with a larger capacity compared to the standard RAM/FTE container. Try these tips before switching to a Xicoy ECU. Bob Price's manual on the Ver. R03B software should also help you understand the start process. Good Luck.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
I have a FTE-500, similar to RAM 500, and had Bob Price upgrade the ECU to Ver. R03B with improved starting results. The best glowplug is the Rossi R-8 followed by the OPS RC-300 with the elements teased out about 3 mm. It is best to first anneal the elements by applying 1.5V to them before extension. The recommended battery is a 2S LiPo of at least 2200 mAh capacity and a 35C rating. I still use the Coleman Powermax starting gas but "camping gas" is similar and should be available in Europe. You must invert the canister to flow liquefied gas into the turbine's gas container. I also use a Jet Cat container with a larger capacity compared to the standard RAM/FTE container. Try these tips before switching to a Xicoy ECU. Bob Price's manual on the Ver. R03B software should also help you understand the start process. Good Luck.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
03-21-2015, 03:20 AM
#28
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"Why my propane valve does not work when the gas tank is full?"
Could be a weak or bad solenoid output transistor since it only happen on the gas connection. You could test the gas valve with a 4.8 battery then try blowing through the tubes to see if it works..another thing to remember in the setup memu to get a brighter glow from the glow plug is to lower the numbers instead of increasing the value.
The 2s Lipo 7.4 should work but I found over the years using the Ni-MH 7.2 4500 mh last longer. As Bod price stated..he need to know the ECU VER...So press menu then DAT. That should tell you the engine type R500, R750 OR R1000 then the Ver= #.
P.S The Ram ECU is the only one I know of that provide detail of previous engine runs even if the battery was removed. I think Bob need redesign the RPM unit and make the ecu generic.
Just my opinion
Could be a weak or bad solenoid output transistor since it only happen on the gas connection. You could test the gas valve with a 4.8 battery then try blowing through the tubes to see if it works..another thing to remember in the setup memu to get a brighter glow from the glow plug is to lower the numbers instead of increasing the value.
The 2s Lipo 7.4 should work but I found over the years using the Ni-MH 7.2 4500 mh last longer. As Bod price stated..he need to know the ECU VER...So press menu then DAT. That should tell you the engine type R500, R750 OR R1000 then the Ver= #.
P.S The Ram ECU is the only one I know of that provide detail of previous engine runs even if the battery was removed. I think Bob need redesign the RPM unit and make the ecu generic.
Just my opinion
Last edited by basimpsn; 03-21-2015 at 03:47 AM.
03-21-2015, 04:25 AM
#29
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Again what is your version level?? I sent you the manual for the R03B. All of the parameters on the R03B increase with a higher value. The R03B version also runs the engine up to a higher rpm during startup and then comes down to idle rpm. This is done to learn the pump characteristics better so the ecu can be allowed to increase to full rpm during the first run up to full rpm faster.
03-21-2015, 07:50 AM
#30
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Hi everyone
My apologize to anyone reading this topic.
I completely run out of line, my ecu version is B01L.
My top rpm is set to 150000 and althought i read that it can be increased to 155k i never did that, since i do want to increase a life span of my Ram.
Dont get me wrong, i never regreted buying this small turbine.
Its not eficient as other turbines, it do make some troubles to user, but i never had a flame out, and althougt it may take a few atemps to start it, i did it everytime.
Im just kurious what could be done to make its use easier.
Thanks everyone for sugestion.
Bob, i did get the file. I will look to it.
The propane valve do vorks when conected to a batery. It works no matter the gas tank is full or empty. Also my other valves that i tried, also do not work on Ram ecu.
So, i also suspected on circuit transistor, but didnt want to mess around.
Im interested in sending it for repair and ecu version upgrade.
I have a old style flat nut with o ring starter.
As i already mentioned, since i instaled a viton o ring, it worked.
I read somewhere that ram turbines were suplied with speed 300 motors and multiplex electric motors.
After burning two speed 300, i start thinking about instaling speed 400 motor, wich is far better than 300.
Any thoughts about starter motors?
My apologize to anyone reading this topic.
I completely run out of line, my ecu version is B01L.
My top rpm is set to 150000 and althought i read that it can be increased to 155k i never did that, since i do want to increase a life span of my Ram.
Dont get me wrong, i never regreted buying this small turbine.
Its not eficient as other turbines, it do make some troubles to user, but i never had a flame out, and althougt it may take a few atemps to start it, i did it everytime.
Im just kurious what could be done to make its use easier.
Thanks everyone for sugestion.
Bob, i did get the file. I will look to it.
The propane valve do vorks when conected to a batery. It works no matter the gas tank is full or empty. Also my other valves that i tried, also do not work on Ram ecu.
So, i also suspected on circuit transistor, but didnt want to mess around.
Im interested in sending it for repair and ecu version upgrade.
I have a old style flat nut with o ring starter.
As i already mentioned, since i instaled a viton o ring, it worked.
I read somewhere that ram turbines were suplied with speed 300 motors and multiplex electric motors.
After burning two speed 300, i start thinking about instaling speed 400 motor, wich is far better than 300.
Any thoughts about starter motors?
03-21-2015, 09:29 AM
#32
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Coka,
You are most certainly correct in learning about turbine operation with the RAM brand. I recommend having the ECU upgraded to Ver. R03B by Bob Price. This will improve the starting as well as the overall performance. Carlos at Repair Technology Intl (RTI) can best handle any upgrades to the turbine itself. Let us know your plans.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
You are most certainly correct in learning about turbine operation with the RAM brand. I recommend having the ECU upgraded to Ver. R03B by Bob Price. This will improve the starting as well as the overall performance. Carlos at Repair Technology Intl (RTI) can best handle any upgrades to the turbine itself. Let us know your plans.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
03-21-2015, 11:48 AM
#33
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I just read what Bob sent to me earlier.
It sounds nice.
Im just wondering will the problems with relatively bad starter construction still persist.
Powering the system with lipo might help, and im only unsure will the soft starting help in starter motor life.
Anyway, i would like to try.
I have a turbine converted Byron F 16, ready for painting.
The Ram 500 will be instaled in tail, to avoid trust tube.
What parts should i send to you, how long does it take for you to do your magic, and last, how mutch does it cost?
Tnx
It sounds nice.
Im just wondering will the problems with relatively bad starter construction still persist.
Powering the system with lipo might help, and im only unsure will the soft starting help in starter motor life.
Anyway, i would like to try.
I have a turbine converted Byron F 16, ready for painting.
The Ram 500 will be instaled in tail, to avoid trust tube.
What parts should i send to you, how long does it take for you to do your magic, and last, how mutch does it cost?
Tnx
03-21-2015, 01:39 PM
#34
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Wow. B01L is a very old version and should be upgraded. The older B01L version requires more hardware updates including cutting circuit lands and adding some jumper wires along with the microprocessor and several other chip changes. The B01L upgrade is $175. The upgrade for the newer versions (C02C,C03) is $125 because it requires less hardware mods. How hard is the shipping to Yugoslavia?? All you need to send is the ECU. I could turn it around in a day or two as long as I am in town.
03-21-2015, 02:04 PM
#35
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Coka,
The only contact I have for RTI is: Carlos Villarreal, RTI, 5723 SW 149 Ave, Miami, FL 33193 USA. Phone (USA County Code)-786-303-3243. Again, I advise you to first have the ECU upgraded before servicing the turbine. Also, there may be turbine repair services locally in Europe.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
The only contact I have for RTI is: Carlos Villarreal, RTI, 5723 SW 149 Ave, Miami, FL 33193 USA. Phone (USA County Code)-786-303-3243. Again, I advise you to first have the ECU upgraded before servicing the turbine. Also, there may be turbine repair services locally in Europe.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
03-21-2015, 02:57 PM
#36
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Art, what did you mean when you mentioned " repair"?
My turbine is operative and beside little anoying starting process, i could go on and use it.
Bob's ecu upgrade seems like a good idea, also a Xicoy fadec might improve its overal usefullnes.
If you mean repair as answer to my will to change the type of starter motor, i mentioned that since there were two types of motors, speed 300 and multiplex 280. I just dont have any information wether 280 was better than speed 300.
Its not a big deal to change motor from time to time, but i was inquiring why they last so short.
Anyway, thanks for infos and sugestion
My turbine is operative and beside little anoying starting process, i could go on and use it.
Bob's ecu upgrade seems like a good idea, also a Xicoy fadec might improve its overal usefullnes.
If you mean repair as answer to my will to change the type of starter motor, i mentioned that since there were two types of motors, speed 300 and multiplex 280. I just dont have any information wether 280 was better than speed 300.
Its not a big deal to change motor from time to time, but i was inquiring why they last so short.
Anyway, thanks for infos and sugestion
03-21-2015, 04:05 PM
#37
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Coka,
What I meant by "repair" was to change the starter motor but you can already do this yourself. I would avoid sending the turbine to USA for service due to customs fees, etc. The ECU upgrade should not be a problem.
Art
What I meant by "repair" was to change the starter motor but you can already do this yourself. I would avoid sending the turbine to USA for service due to customs fees, etc. The ECU upgrade should not be a problem.
Art
03-21-2015, 07:55 PM
#38
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Art, what did you mean when you mentioned " repair"?
My turbine is operative and beside little anoying starting process, i could go on and use it.
Bob's ecu upgrade seems like a good idea, also a Xicoy fadec might improve its overal usefullnes.
If you mean repair as answer to my will to change the type of starter motor, i mentioned that since there were two types of motors, speed 300 and multiplex 280. I just dont have any information wether 280 was better than speed 300.
Its not a big deal to change motor from time to time, but i was inquiring why they last so short.
Anyway, thanks for infos and sugestion
My turbine is operative and beside little anoying starting process, i could go on and use it.
Bob's ecu upgrade seems like a good idea, also a Xicoy fadec might improve its overal usefullnes.
If you mean repair as answer to my will to change the type of starter motor, i mentioned that since there were two types of motors, speed 300 and multiplex 280. I just dont have any information wether 280 was better than speed 300.
Its not a big deal to change motor from time to time, but i was inquiring why they last so short.
Anyway, thanks for infos and sugestion
Coka - I burned up a couple of motors before I upgrade to CO3 . The last time I replaced the motor with Electrifly T-370. It is slightly larger in dia. and I had to build a new housing for this motor. Electrifly is marketed in US by Tower under Great Planes name.
03-22-2015, 01:03 AM
#39
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SidGates:
Thank you for sharing your experience with me/us.
I just look at Tower hobbies, it sounds like a good deal.
Speed 300 motor has a very thin brushes and they do burn out fast.
I look at speed 400, it has thicker brushes with small bricks wich touches the rotor colector.
I guess that my explanation soynds funny, like indian english, but i hope that it can be understood.
Its not a big deal to revork the electric motor holder or housing.
All participants:
My doubt is concerning bendix mechanism.
On my turbine, i have a round type compresor nut and bendix presed on to a electric motor shaft.
First, i saw that later engines have a nut with conical shape, like on spinner.
The ruber o ring, on my engine, touches the front face of nut and its very prone to slip.
This set up is also very sensitive to axial play of electric motor rotor.
To remedy this, there is a small axial bearing, on the rear side of the motor. Its actualy a steel ball and a 3 mm bolt, and by screwing it in you push the steel ball and rotor shaft, what decrease the axial play.
In about 20 starts and it means about 25 start atemps and 20 cooling cycles, adding a few pre spins on hand held unit, i had to exchange one o ring and re ajust a free play once.
After that, the motorburns out and here we go again.
Second, since its not easy to pull the bendix off the motor shaft, has anybody any ideas, would it be smart to instal 1 or 2 small bolts on the side of bendix housing, wich would hold it.
I think that later versions do have a conical compresor nut and detachible bendix.
Im sure that upgrading ecu is what i will try, but do you think that i can keep speed 300 and present bendix and get a relatively troublefee starts?
I think that i must say something more.
I cant thank you enough for trying to help me.
Guys, you are the best....
But i must apologize to a modeler who wrote the first post.
The post started as seek for parameters info, and my posting changed it to another direction.
Luckily, its all concerning Ram turbines and it might be interesting for everybody owning them.
Thank you for sharing your experience with me/us.
I just look at Tower hobbies, it sounds like a good deal.
Speed 300 motor has a very thin brushes and they do burn out fast.
I look at speed 400, it has thicker brushes with small bricks wich touches the rotor colector.
I guess that my explanation soynds funny, like indian english, but i hope that it can be understood.
Its not a big deal to revork the electric motor holder or housing.
All participants:
My doubt is concerning bendix mechanism.
On my turbine, i have a round type compresor nut and bendix presed on to a electric motor shaft.
First, i saw that later engines have a nut with conical shape, like on spinner.
The ruber o ring, on my engine, touches the front face of nut and its very prone to slip.
This set up is also very sensitive to axial play of electric motor rotor.
To remedy this, there is a small axial bearing, on the rear side of the motor. Its actualy a steel ball and a 3 mm bolt, and by screwing it in you push the steel ball and rotor shaft, what decrease the axial play.
In about 20 starts and it means about 25 start atemps and 20 cooling cycles, adding a few pre spins on hand held unit, i had to exchange one o ring and re ajust a free play once.
After that, the motorburns out and here we go again.
Second, since its not easy to pull the bendix off the motor shaft, has anybody any ideas, would it be smart to instal 1 or 2 small bolts on the side of bendix housing, wich would hold it.
I think that later versions do have a conical compresor nut and detachible bendix.
Im sure that upgrading ecu is what i will try, but do you think that i can keep speed 300 and present bendix and get a relatively troublefee starts?
I think that i must say something more.
I cant thank you enough for trying to help me.
Guys, you are the best....
But i must apologize to a modeler who wrote the first post.
The post started as seek for parameters info, and my posting changed it to another direction.
Luckily, its all concerning Ram turbines and it might be interesting for everybody owning them.
Last edited by coka; 03-22-2015 at 06:07 AM.
03-22-2015, 06:35 AM
#40
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Coka - Your last post reminded me that I replaced the "flat" nut with a conical one I purchased from WREN. You can buy one from them that has the magnet. I was also able to move the motor thrust bearing from the burned out motors to the new motors.
A larger bendix was used and I got a couple from someone in Florida. It uses set screws to retain the bendix. I was able to pull the old bendix off the motor but destroyed the motor but that didn't matter because it burned out any way. The new larger bendix is much better and easier to work with. I found some pictures and I think this is the right drawing but not sure.
A larger bendix was used and I got a couple from someone in Florida. It uses set screws to retain the bendix. I was able to pull the old bendix off the motor but destroyed the motor but that didn't matter because it burned out any way. The new larger bendix is much better and easier to work with. I found some pictures and I think this is the right drawing but not sure.
03-23-2015, 06:24 AM
#43
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I hope the pictures sof the bendix show here. This is brand new from Modellbau purchased from Modelbau a number of years ago. $25 which is what they sold them for years ago. These are special bendix with set screws rather that pressed fit. The pressed fit ones are Very hard to remove. These are for the latest spinner nut shown in picture but I do not have any available.
04-20-2015, 08:05 PM
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Hi all, has anyone had this problem and a solution, i am running a ram500r ecu co3 2cell lipo, as soon as i connect the lipo the egt probe heats up and doesn't show temp on the data terminal, now if i take the glow plug wire off of the glow plug the egt probe cools off immediately and displays temp again, i am thinking a bad ground somewhere but not really not sure any help would be appreciated? Thanks
04-21-2015, 03:39 AM
#45
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Hi all, has anyone had this problem and a solution, i am running a ram500r ecu co3 2cell lipo, as soon as i connect the lipo the egt probe heats up and doesn't show temp on the data terminal, now if i take the glow plug wire off of the glow plug the egt probe cools off immediately and displays temp again, i am thinking a bad ground somewhere but not really not sure any help would be appreciated? Thanks
04-21-2015, 03:39 AM
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sr71,
You most definitely have a short or ground problem with your Ram 500r. Ensure that the glowplug connector does not have a short to ground. You can push back the rubber boot to check and try connecting the wire to just the tip of the glowplug. Also check that the glowplug itself is not shorted, done with an ohmmeter or removing the plug and applying current from a glow ignitor or a 1.5 V source. The plug element should glow normally. Let us know what you find out.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
You most definitely have a short or ground problem with your Ram 500r. Ensure that the glowplug connector does not have a short to ground. You can push back the rubber boot to check and try connecting the wire to just the tip of the glowplug. Also check that the glowplug itself is not shorted, done with an ohmmeter or removing the plug and applying current from a glow ignitor or a 1.5 V source. The plug element should glow normally. Let us know what you find out.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
04-21-2015, 09:31 AM
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Thanks for the help guys, i did take the egt probe off the engine hooked everything up and reads temp ok as soon as i touch it to tailcone it heats up and looses temp, so probably bad probe?
04-21-2015, 05:33 PM
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I loosened up the glow plug a little and got the probe to read temp then the fuel solenoid wouldn't pump fuel so i bypassed that finally got the damn thing to fire up, probably need a new probe it tried reversing it!!
