bonanzadrv

My Feedback: (21)

Whats the latest on the requirements for a turbine waiver? I have done the written test and I have the sign off for starting and running the engine, and I have a sign off from a CD (not a Turbine CD) . I think the only thing I need to do is get the sign off from a turbine CD?? Can I do this with a turbine powered airplane? Also if I do this flight at an event, can I fly for the whole weekend or do I need to wait for the AMA to send me my turbine waiver??

Thanks for the help,
Bill

Wren Turbines USA

My Feedback: (39)

FIrst off, in which district are you located? You will need to contact a Turbine Waiver CD in your district to make arrangements for your signoff. I believe that once you have satisfied the flight requirements, the documents supplied from your signoff CDs will be sufficient untill the AMA can process your waiver. And yes, you can fly a turbine for your signoff, as long as
the CD that you choose checks out your aircraft and that you follow proper saftey procedures. Take your time and do not be afraid to ask questions................

Best regards,

Ron Ballard
AMA AVP Dist 6

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

That is actually not correct. If you go to www.modelaircraft.org and download document #538.....it says that the pilot cannot use a turbine powered aircraft to perform his/her check flight.

However, document #567 "Flight Demonstration Turbine Waiver" says:

This program will allow AMA members to operate a turbine engine, prior to obtaining the
necessary Special AMA Waiver that is required under the current Official AMA National
Model Aircraft Safety Code. This program will not replace the current procedure of
obtaining a Special AMA Waiver for turbine engine operation, but is a temporary and
alternate approach. The program can only be performed at an AMA sanctioned event
designated for turbine powered aircraft, prior to the official event days and is up to the
discretion of the event’s Contest Director (Not permitted during the actual dates of the
AMA Sanction).

If you want to use a turbine for your demonstration you have to follow this format.

Take Ron's advice and call your closest TCD. He will help you with the whole shootin' match and get you checked out.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Yup - Bob's right - the only way you can use a turbine powered aircraft to do your waiver demo flight is by doing the special "interim" program.

So far, I'm not aware of anyone actually getting their waiver this way. I know Matt was gonna try it at one of the Southern CA events, but I think that got scuppered when the AMA insisted that he could not supply the jet to be used - the person wanting the waiver had to supply their own.

Gordon

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

He got the waiver. A gentleman from Phoenix, can't remember the name. As far as I know he is the first to get it this way.

luv2fly2

My Feedback: (66)

Hey Guys,

I am in Greenville Ms, I have a ya 18 with a ram 500 need help with a sing off who do I get in touch with?

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/PDF-files/572

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

Luv2Fly2,
You need to call David Reid, he is from Oxford, MS. He is usually seen lurking around this website. He has been a wealth of information for me.
TOmmy

rcjetflyr

My Feedback: (10)

So they are saying that if you are at a private strip where you dont need ama coverage to fly in the first place, a turbine cd cannot watch you fly your turbine bird there and sign you off??

Jack

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Correct.

Gordon

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Well, that's not what I would do. I have already signed off people that I have seen fly a turbine at a non-AMA field. I believe the wording of the AMA documents is written assuming that all flying will be done at an AMA field.

It doesn't make any sense to not sign off a flier who can demo his turbine model at a non-AMA field.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

At the non-AMA field that I fly at I am a little particular who I see fly a turbine airplane. I fly at a small local airport and have been flying there for several years. I have done several waiver flights there but if I have not seen you fly then I want to see you fly a high performance plane first prior to a flight on a turbine plane. Obviously it is becoming increasingly more diffucult to adhere strictly to the AMA waiver (for sign off) rules in that there are very few airplanes that actually meet their 150 mph rule. It makes sense to sign a guy off on the actual airplane he will be flying.

DR

Jetjock51

Hello Vernon,

As I stated in my response to your private email last night, there are only three turbine CDs in Mississippi. They are Vernon Montgomery, David Reid, and myself. There is no simple, quick way to a turbine waiver. Did you make it to the Mississippi Afterburner Jet Rally in Winona weekend before last. That would have been your only chance this year to get the interim special waiver at a Mississippi event. By prior arrangement you can go to a jet rally that has set aside a day before the official event days for interim waiver flights on a buddy box. Again, this must be by pre-arrangement. The next event near Mississippi is Tennessee Jets in Columbia, TN. I don't know if there is a provision at that event for the special waiver program. Then there is Winamac, Indiana, Greater Southwest in Dallas, TX, then Superman in Metropolis, IL. I don't know if these events are accepting provisional waiver applicants.

We will be glad to help, but as I asked last night, what is your high speed flight experience? Did you go to the JPO site for the links to the AMA turbine documents? First thing is to review those documents to become familiar with the AMA requirements. It is all there.

Dennis Lott
Jackson, Mississippi

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Actually, there is no such thing as an "AMA field".

You are welcome to submit a design plan to the AMA for their input, but no certification paperwork is generated. Thank God! Imagine the nightmare of having an AMA VP with representatives of the AMA's insurers coming to your field and making the decision as to whether it is a legal field.

Remember, the AMA member and the Field Owner are the insured, under separate policies, not the field itself. For the field owner, individual club members, and our incorporated club to be covered by AMA insurance, our club specifies that only AMA members will be allowed to fly, and that our club will enforce all the Safety Rules.

You can fly out of 500 ft deep stone quarry, Rabbit, private and county airports, your backyard, etc. As long as you don't violate any of the AMA Safety Rules, your personal AMA insurance is in effect, whether you want it or not.

The owner, lessor, of our club field is insured for $5 million, First Dollar, coverage thru the AMA for $160 bucks, 60 for the first 2.5 mil and 100 add-on for the second 2.5 mil. Once again, there is no paperwork in this insurance application that specifies "AMA Field".

For his insurance to be in effect, he must make sure that our club, the lessee, allows only AMA members to use the field and that the AMA Safety Rules are enforced.

A couple of us also fly off a local airport. We had to produce evidence of our own insurance coverage with the AMA. The county that owned the airport, at first questioned whether they would be indemnified if we banged up a full-scale plane on the ramp or injured someone. After discussion with their liability insurers, with a written rider, they obtained coverage, so we never had to approach the AMA for coverage. You can get AMA owner coverage for an entire year, or just for an event, like if you use an airport for a fly-in.

Having said all that, hopefully the trial certification process as now specified in AMA doc 567, using form 570 will eventually be implemented under the old doc 538 with form 516, by basically removing the "No Turbine" from 538 and allowing buddy boxing.

Some action might be taken near the end of the year, since the trial waiver process at Jet Fly-In's sunsets 12/31/2003. Keep writing POLITE notes to your VPs and to HQ. JPO seems to be working along those, lines as well

Remember, having to appear at an AMA sanctioned jet fly-in, before the sanction opens, under the trial waiver program, is a pain in the butt, but if it works this year, the AMA might ease up on the No Turbine, No buddy box rules, and let the 150MPH, (DF) requirement pass into the "Interesting History" files.


Tom

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Well, here's my take on it...

There are several areas in the "waiver demo flight" requirements where the AMA grants us leeway, and provides "guidelines" rather than hard & fast rules. The question of using a turbine powered aircraft is not one of them (at least not the way I read it, not the way Ilona interpreted it when I last talked to her about it).

However - I recently watched someone fly a turbine powered BVM Mig 15 very capably, then he came over & asked me about doing his waiver demo flight. Because I don't want his insurance nullified if it were to be known that he obtained his waiver in a way that is expressly forbidden by the AMA, I simply discussed options with him, and he went off to grab a prop plane to do the waiver with. I allowed more leeway than I normally would do in terms of selecting the prop plane in question, because of the fact that I had seen him ably fly his turbine Mig, yet I believe that we both covered the bases by doing the sign-off on a prop plane instead of with his turbine.

I'd hate to blatantly bust the rules on the waiver demo flight, only to find out later that the guy is in deep doodoo because he caused a major accident and during the investigation it was found out that he obtained his waiver "fraudulently". (Which would not be all that difficult to find out, since people do tend to talk... as the admissions here show ) Doing people that kind of favor could turn out to not be a favor after all, so I'd rather not bust that rule. I will compromise where I can, as the people I have signed off will attest to, but have no interest in making it much easier than it already is, for the AMA to find reasons to deny someone coverage.

Regs,
Gordon

P. Richards

My Feedback: (3)

Gordon I thank you for your common sense approach to this matter It's people like you that make this hobby productive. I know we have rules and regulations but without common sense some individuals get carried away. The purpose of the waiver is not to stop competent pilots from flying but to make sure that it is done in a safe controlled professional manner.

P. Richards a.k.a. S.W.A.T. TEAM

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, we sold him the plane he got checked out on, then we bought it back.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Well, at some point in time, common sense has to prevail. If I'm at a field that does not require AMA membership, like the lakebeds out here, and the flier competently flies their turbine model, does it make any sense to not sign them off? Of course not. Getting them to fly some sort of prop model in order to "pass" the flight, IMO, doesn't make sense if you just watched them fly a turbine model.

Again, I am betting the AMA has given you "interpretations" based on the assumption that AMA insurance had to cover all the operations. I'm sure the wording of the rules are also making that assumption. But if it doesn't have to, no reason not to use the owner's turbine model.

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Gordon:

You are absolutely right. Like all insurance binders, the fine print only comes into to question after you get that subpoena from the local sherriff at your door, naming you in a multi-million dollar lawsuit, after your sign-off dude just sliced off some spectator's or other flight line member's head, doing his first 200MPH inverted low pass across show center and screws up.

During the discovery phase of the suit, when the sign-off Turbine CD, the other CD involved, and the Perp are giving depositions under oath, lying and getting caught about what plane was used, not only would invalidate the insurance due to 538 rule violation, but would set all three of them up for conspiracy to commit perjury. Bad scene.......ask Martha Stewart....you might get off, but it's gonna cost lot's of legal defense dollars. I don't think perjury is covered by your AMA policy......

I have heard a rumor that a mid-west CD did sign off a guy who used his own Shrike or Whiplash, or some other high speed propper for his 150MPH flight, and then flew a warbird or some other kind of high wing loaded bird with flaps and retracts for the complex portion. You could even slow down the throttle servo transit time to simulate turbine lag. I am not sure if Maroney or Ilona would have any comments about that kind of a flight test, but it would seem to fall within the competence guidelines they are trying to establish.

Most important is still trying to remove the "No turbine" rule from 538 and allow buddy box training and flight tests.

Tom

"Common Sense has to Prevail"------I find the greatest reservoirs of "Absolutely No Common Sense" to be liability insurers. Obfuscation, not common sense, prevails.
.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

What is really sad is the fact that we have let it come to this, where everyone has a different interpretation of the rules, because the lawyers have written such a vague document that even those who are trying to enforce it are not sure what it says or how to enforce it consistently. Of course this just opens the door for the insurance company to find some way to get out of coverage in the event of an accident.
But in reality how do the turbine CD's differ from those who check out a new guy with his 40 size trainer? If a designated club instructor "signs off" on a new guy and the next week he kills somebody on the flight line, is this not just as bad?
When it stops being fun, it becomes more like a job, and then it isn't a hobby any more.
In reply to Frank, it does take time to get all of this done. I am in the final process of trying to get everything together. You can get most of the info and explanations for the written test from the JPO site.
Tommy

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

The bottom line is as a Turbine CD "we" have to determine if an individual is competent enough to handle a turbine airplane. I'm not going to jepordize the flying site that I have worked hard to aquire to watch someone whom I have never seen fly, demonstrate his abilities with a turbine airplane. Common sense dictates that an individual able to handle a complex model, with high wing loading is also capable of handling a turbine model. He may not be able to handle it at 250 mph on his first flight but he should be able to handle the airplane. There have been several proposals that have been sent to the AMA outlining training programs, and introductory turbine pilot levels all have been ignored or tabled to this date. Yet a through training program under the guidance of an experienced turbine pilot would (and is) the best route to success with these airplanes.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

I certainly hope that everyone understands that I am not saying that a turbine model should be used. You have to realize that out here there are several sites that AMA membership is not required, nor is any form of insurance required, so some are flying turbines at these fields without AMA waivers. A few have decided they would like to go to rallies, or they want the AMA coverage, so they have applied for waivers. If I watch someone competently fly a turbine model at one of these locations, I'm not going to insist on seeing them fly some lesser performance model. Doesn't make sense. But if I'm at an AMA required field, I'm not going to allow someone without a waiver to use a turbine model for this demo flight.

Also, I doubt the lawyers had much to do with writing these AMA documents we're discussing.

This whole process is open to all sorts of interpretation. If anyone thinks your going to skip by Tom's worst case scenario because you dotted every supposed "i" and crossed every supposed "t", guess again. If they decide to come after you, the Turbine CD, it's gone pretty far and is going to get ugly despite what you may have done. As for David's concerns about his airport field, they are absolutely valid, and I would do the same in that situation.

One other point, none of this is "required" to fly a turbine model. It is only required if you need or desire AMA insurance coverage when flying your turbine model.

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Bill:

With so much speculative rhetoric, by so many WFA's(World's Foremost Authority), self-included clouding the issue, the answer to your first question is "No" if the Turbine CD abides by AMA doc#538.

Where are you currently located? I think that for a while you were here in Wisconsin. If you are still here, we have a turbine C.D. in our club, along with a couple of other turbine waiver holders.

We also have access to fast and high wing-loaded prop airplanes which we can buddy box on, and then let you go for it if you are comfortable........or.......... we are having a FunFly Fly on June 21 here in Fond du Lac.

I know that the Interim Turbine Waiver, doc 567 specifies doing the deed with your own turbine by prior arrangement at a Turbine meet, but I wonder if that is flexible(I can check with AMA). It just seems to be a convenience to allow you to fly at the Jet Meet, and then for the next 60 days until your official paperwork is completed and signed-off by AMA HQ.

If it is, then you could get signed off directly with your own jet, a couple of days beforehand.

Just a thought for you, or anyone else in this area looking for a sign-off........we also have a great, smooth grass field, 215 X 700 ft with clear approaches. Nary a tree in over 200 acres of overfly.

Tom------

Also a little pitch....Jetsters welcome at our Fly-In. $5.00 landing fee, good food, and limited power hookups. Get in a couple flights from 9-3 during the sanction, but fly, fly until sunset, and all day Sunday, when the crowd thins. Motels close by........easy access off HiWay 41.

Any questions, drop me a PM or e-mail or call:

920-922-1009 anytime

unknown

I agreed with tonyf if its not a ama sanction field, and its not dangering anyone around. then its ok to sign off a pilot how demonstrate safety and competent flying.

Stop putting on a front guys and be real.

strong

Being new to turbines and being lucky enough to get to build one and see how they work and now how they fly. It is my opinion that other than throttle lag on a miss landing there ain't much difference in the way my turbine trainer flys from a gas 1/4 scale plane.The 1/4 scale will probably out fly it.I know most of you guy have probably been flying turbines for years and have seen some bad things happen(and I respect that)but it seem to me that a 50 ounce tank of gas is more lethal than a 50 ounce tank of kerosene.So why the big deal over turbines and not gas engines.Don't get me wrong because I know in the wrong hands either is very dangerous, but I think if you can fly a turbine trainer competently you should be able to get your waiver.I am lucky that I can fly at a field all by myself with no problems. But I would like to go to a jet rally one day and not just watch.......Maybe fly my super reaper once or twice.