Duncan

My local club banned jets a few years ago for a few reasons, some of them due to ignorance.

At Christmas i was voted onto the commitee and my plan was to change the attitude towards turbine powered models. I only started flying jets late last year, so i still have alot to learn, but would like some of your suggestions with how i can bring the members round.

The BMFA have helped a great deal already by issuing a statement about the noise limits (82db at 7m on the ground) not being relevent to turbine models as once in the air the noise disapates alot quick than that of a prop model, due to the frequency of the sound. As my club is very strict on the 82db limit, this ruling should help me.

One of the reasons for the club enforcing the ban was a fear of a fire after a crash, as the surrounding fields are farmers crops. Any damage to these could loose the club the field. A lipo model has about the same risk of causing a fire in a crash as kero powered model, but my suggestion is to not allow jets to fly when there are crops in the field (unfortunately that is most of the summer) i don't think its a necessary rule for turbine flight, but it might be a necessary rule for getting the members to agree to letting them fly

A second rule would be to have no on board gas, as i have been led to believe that on boards gas can cause fire as the result of a arrival. Is there any evidence to suggest how much it lowers the probability?

The third rule could be to only allow members to fly jets if they hold the BMFA 'B' certificate, it's the second test that BMFA members can take to show proficiency and a test they must take if they are to compete at the Nationals or fly on a show line.


The club runs off a well looked after grass strip and while it wouldn't be suitable for scale models it will be great for flying a boomer and the like from. I have also thought of asking Ali (sorry mate not spoken to you about this yet lol) about running a jet day like he did for a club last year, where members can have a go on a buddy lead as i think this is an excellent way of ridding the ignorance towards jets.

What do you think? have i missed anything?

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Pray for Heart Attacks, that's what I do. On the upside for my situation, the old President that banned them at our field is no longer the president. The new guy is Jet Friendly, but to date, no change has happened.

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

We have a rule in our club that bans any kind of jet meet basically and it was brought on for the same reasons you mentioned. I have brought up a removal of this rule in our monthly meetings before due to it being antiquated. When I did try to get it removed it almost backfired and members started to think about banning all jet flying at our field during high risk fires months. There are a lot of elderly people out there that are envy of this part of the hobby and will do anything to stop turbine jet flying. Good luck with your club...

Duncan

lol that's one way but i was hoping for a more immediate and non life threatening way of dealing with it

Like with your club, the commitee that enforced the ban has now left. They were a tempory committee that took over and kicked up a fuss about jets, banned them and then left the original commitee to deal with it.

All this happend after a jet crashed and caught fire. The Originals put a hold of jets until they could look into a solution to protect the club. Some members kicked up a fuss about the hold, and the originals walked out. leaving the members who were making a fuss, some of whom flew jets, in charge, They then went ahead and banned them anyway [:@] rather than implement some of the suggestions i outlayed above, which is what they were going to do in the first place.

georbeckha

My Feedback: (12)

Thankfully, our club is not anti Jets. In fact, our Captain and at least one other in the officers fly (Or will fly) Jets. Plus, the land owner is a crop duster who's plane is a turboprop and he loves to see the Jets out flying (Even if one did hit the front wheel of his truck and disintegrate leaving shorting out batteries and a strong Kero smell in a 30 ft radius.)
I don't know if you have a TV show called Mythbusters over there in the UK, but in one show I remember they were laying a trail of Diesel, Kerosine and Gasoline (Petrol) and lighting one end to see if it would follow the trail to the source.
If memory serves correctly, the diesel and Kero either would not ignite on the ground OR it would but quickly go out. The Gasoline on the other hand would shoot up the trail no problem.

I only mention this because you could try this demo and see what they say. I know that once you have a 500-600 degree jet exhaust and the fuel spraying all around this kind of goes out the door... but it is worth a thought.

George

KC36330

Blame the old folks huh?? i guess the old guys in my club are the cream of the crop, they absolutely love to watch my turbines and they'll ask the prop guys to give it a rest so they can enjoy the full sound of it without their distractions. the funny thing is most of the club members don't have an appreciation for the helis, we have to surrender right of way to fixed wing regardless, it's even written into the club bylaws, what makes that so dramatic is our fields are provided by the US Army, they are helicopter training stage fields and ALL the members who despise the helis are .......get this........retired helicopter pilots.

BaldEagel

Slam Dunk

I also have the same problem except that the committee that banned the jets have never flown one or know anything about them and have been in position since the club started and have held it back in the dark ages.

The only other thing I think you could demonstrate/impliment is the standard of fuel tank, pop bottles tend to disintigrate on impact, fuel cells or some of the large fuel tanks that are purpose made for some aircraft have a much better tolerance to bursting and distributing their contents all over a hot turbine.

If noise is an issue then impliment a rule saying that only one jet can fly withing any one hour or some such.

I will subscribe to this thread as I am interested in anything that can change these uneducated peoples perseption of turbine power.

Oh yes, lets not get ageist about this, I am well over the age where I breath in when a good looking woman walks in the door.

Mike

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

in our club the average age is 70 most don't even fly they just site there and talk about how much life suck... on the other hand there are a few that like jets and one of our oldest jet guys is 70+ going one 20 he is the coolest elderly I know, but the majority gon't give a crap about jets and rather see gliders in the sky...

schroedm

My Feedback: (1)

Like this?

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

ROFLMAO now that got my day going... thanks...

SinCityJets

We started to have that a little at out field way back when, so what I did, was give them a pull on the sticks. It was a Boomerand XL, so if they could fly a 40 trainer, they could fly the plane. But I made it more of an educational or fun thing for them, rather than "Look what I have, and you will never have!"

For those at fields that they are banned, try and schedule just a Jet Day for the local club members and put them on a buddy box.....worth a shot.

Duncan

That was one of the ideas of asking Ali to run a taster day, so they can all have a go. i'll speak to the chairman next week before the club meeting, his very helpful and has no problem with jets flying. I just want to do my homework before it get put forward to the members

acw

My Feedback: (1)

I would start by offering to fly a few jets at their yearly airshow, or whatever important event they have. This might change perception.

Arnaud

Gary Arthur

My Feedback: (29)

My field went through the same thing. It is a long process and you need to be patient. You must show that jets can be flown safely and responsibly. You need to educate as much as possible without bragging or appearing as a know it all.

We have an older guy in our club that has always flown prop jets. This past year I converted him over to a turbine/boomer combo. He was so happy with his success, that he wrote an article for our newsletter.

[link=http://www.brcm.org/downloads/category/2-2008?download=11%3Anovember]newsletter[/link]

Duncan

Love your work Gary, nice one for helping a fellow modeller to see the light !!

Arnaud, it's a small club with no show as to speak off. We ran club comps last yr, devised a set of competitions that everyone could do with any model and tried to get everyone involved. out of 80 members the most to run in any of the 5 comps was 8 !!! and they were the chairman, my mates and myself. None of the others showed any interest, despite prizes being offered from the lhs. The majoirity of the members can't be arsed to do anything for the club, in fact even at club night, it's good to get more that 20 people, but they soon show their face if they have something to moan about.

God i sound like a right old miserabe git, but i'm only 31 honest lol

siclick33

The first thing I would do is to try and have an honest appreciation of the concerns of others and see if they have a point. I have fortunately only witnessed one 'total' and the fire was not insignificant. If you think that your field is suitable then there are a number of things you can do to help.

A lot of the problem IMO is, exactly as in your title, ignorance. If you have club nights then offer to do a talk about your jet. I did this at my club and it was very well received. I started right from the basics about how a jet engine worked, handed round a turbine for people to look at and then went on to explain about model installations and how the model engine is controlled. Maybe I was fortunate but the club members were very interested and, in my experience, once the 'unknown' starts to unfold I tend to find people are a lot more receptive.

I was the only club member to fly a jet at my field for over a year. I didn't receive a single complaint as I always had safety foremost in my mind and didn't spook anyone. I left the club over a year ago and I recently heard that they had lost their flying site due to a couple of recent non-jet incidents.

In summary, I would educate, then gently introduce one or 2 jets and operate them with unprecedented care. Slowly I believe that they will come around (hopefully).

BaldEagel

Mark

I don't have to breath in that hard thank god.

Slam Dunk

Your reply to Arnaud, I could have written that myself, our committee rearly consits of 16 people the same 16 who turn up at every club meeting and moan about something, the major expenditure each year is new batteries for the glider winch and tow line.

This year I have done something positive about our clubs complacency, on the 21st March the GBRCAA (Great Britain Radio Controled Aerobatic Association) are holding a NPoD (New Pilots Open Day) on our field, this is an informal introduction to presision aerobatics, basically you are mentored by an experienced GBRCAA member through three flights, what I am hoping is that this will be the start of some interest by our club members in progressing out of the 19 century, it can only help. I hope.

I may be an old git, but I am not miserable.

Mike

Duncan

We have just re-introduced talks for club nights to try and get some more members attend, so far we have had a glider night and a engine service talk. The Turbine talk has already been mentioned and will be happening in the next couple of months, which like you suggest should help a bit.

Mike

Aye i think most clubs are the same when it comes to club nights. We have 6 committee members and the other 14 that turn up are members. Although at the xmas club meeting/party there was a good number (around 60) that turned up, so they are out there. I missed this months committee meeting and the club night is next wednesday, so i'll have a word with a few people and see what the feeling is.


Duncan

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

You should probably also talk to the Farmer to see whether the concerns you THINK he has are really the ones he does have.

Some farmers I've talked to in the past are more concerned about the damage done when hordes of people wade through the crops looking for the trainers etc they dumb-thumbed, than about fire etc. A low risk of some crops being burned - and that being compensated by your insurance - may be of less concern to him than a constant stream of damage that is too low level to file insurance claims about.

Note - I'm not suggesting you ignore the fire risk - just that you make sure that the concerns you address on behalf of the farmer are the ones he really cares about.

BaldEagel

I our case its not the farmer who has a problem with the jets its the committee through ignorance of the subject, the land we fly from is on a marsh which is unable to support a crop, so its sheep only, ever had to get set sheep poo off your airframe, it set harder than epoxy. [:'(] The Shepherd in fact likes us to be on the field as we inform him when a Yew is having a problem, getting up after rain ect: so our relationship with the farm is very good, its our club mentality that has to change.

Mike

Duncan

No Worries Gordon,

I won't be putting the negatives across too strongly lol, i'll try to give them all the facts and hopefully do enough to come up with the right decision

I think it will come do, it just needs some careful planning and wording, i'll see how the club night goes first

Duncan

DOMD

My Feedback: (17)

Slam Dunc

The main objection to Jet Flying at our field was due to the fear of fire and subsequent loss of the field on land which is rented from the state of Florida. The intial outlay of money for the runway, pavilion and other buildings was over $35,000 and the members felt the loss of the field far outweighed letting someone fly a Jet. After much discussion it was decided they would permit Jet flying but not allow outsiders, and therefore bannned having a Jet event at the club.

We have had numerous crashes at the field, some resulting in fires which could have gotten out of control. Lucky none did. We learned from experience that if you do not put propane or the propane/butane mix on the plane there have been "no" fires for the past year........ This seems to have settled everything down and I haven't heard any grumbling lately. Try it, I think it will work for you. Good luck.

Dom DiDomenico
Ocala Flying Model Club

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

There is a lot of material out there that will help..

The BMFA has some of the most comprehensive rules for turbines to be found anywhere - including the need for a B ceritficate. One of the subsets of the BMFA and JMA safety codes is the Gas Turbine Builders Association Code of Practice for the Safe Operation of Model Gas Turbines..although it has not been updated since 2001, one of the provisions is
This is an example of safety practices that are already in place over there. If you make yourself a subject matter expert, you will find a lot of objections have already been addressed.
If you can show the club that a substantial set of rules are already in place, and if you and others show you are willing to work within them, you can fly turbines safely. There is a lot of material, so be prepared to spend some time understanding and digesting it.

As far as fires go, The JPO in the states did an accident study in 2003 and 2004. The stats were provided from events, which probably includes more aggressive flying in crowded - sky conditions (ie it could be considered a worse case scenario). Even so, the results for 2004 for nearly 8000 flights, there were 66 accidents and only 6 resulted in post crash fires. You can do the math yourself, but the data suggests that the probability of a crash causing a fire is pretty darned low - even so we are prepared for that consequence with our fire extinguishers. The JPO report can be found here: http://www.jetpilots.org/crash_stats.htm

Another excellent educational tool is a DVD that Traplet put out featuring Ali explaining "turbines for dummies" . It has a surprise ending, and would be a great persuasion tool
https://shop.traplet.com/product.aspx?c=190


Good luck on your quest !

Boomerang1

Slam Dunc, had exactly the same problem at my club.
Have sent you a PM. - John.

Duncan

Hi Wayne

Thats for the info about the JPO report i'll have a read through and see which bits i can use. I'm a member of the JMA and will be printing off the Gas Turbine Builders Association Code of Practice for the Safe Operation of Model Gas Turbines and memorising the keynotes ready for the meeting. I'm quite used to public speaking so i'm looking forward to the challenge.

I Have Ali's DVD as i bought it when i first thought about getting into jets and your right it could well help.

John,

Thanks for the email and all the info, it should be very helpful. Glad you managed to get the problems sorted

Duncan