New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
04-08-2009, 01:55 PM
#51
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
The idea is to prevent a fire, not to put one out, except inside the turbine. Inside the turbine is the point of ignition. if the turbine is out there should be no fire in a crash. The only other ignition source would be from electrical equipment or some kind of metal friction sparking (highly unlikely).
04-08-2009, 02:03 PM
#52
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
In the case of the accelerometer switch, by definition, the crash has already occurred before the shutdown sequence begins. Therefore, the turbine will still be running at point of impact.
Has there been a study into what causes post crash fires or is that just an assumption?
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
if the turbine is out there should be no fire in a crash.
The only other ignition source would be from electrical equipment or some kind of metal friction sparking (highly unlikely).
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
04-08-2009, 02:13 PM
#53
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: siclick33
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
ORIGINAL: siclick33
In the case of the accelerometer switch, by definition, the crash has already occurred before the shutdown sequence begins. Therefore, the turbine will still be running at point of impact.
In the case of the accelerometer switch, by definition, the crash has already occurred before the shutdown sequence begins. Therefore, the turbine will still be running at point of impact.
ORIGINAL: siclick33
Has there been a study into what causes post crash fires or is that just an assumption?
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
Has there been a study into what causes post crash fires or is that just an assumption?
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
04-08-2009, 02:15 PM
#54
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: siclick33
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
In the case of the accelerometer switch, by definition, the crash has already occurred before the shutdown sequence begins. Therefore, the turbine will still be running at point of impact.
Has there been a study into what causes post crash fires or is that just an assumption?
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
if the turbine is out there should be no fire in a crash.
The only other ignition source would be from electrical equipment or some kind of metal friction sparking (highly unlikely).
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
The whole trick to it being successful is to activate and shut down the turbine before the released fuel can get to the engine.
You can't have fire without ignition. Can you think of any other ignition sources?
04-08-2009, 02:21 PM
#55
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: siclick33
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
How much quicker does injecting CO2 into the intake cool the engine as opposed to shutting it down with the TX? Does it make enough difference in the case of a pre-medidated shutdown before a crash?
The good news is that the same test rig that tests the CO2 device could be used to test an all electronic solution. You face the same challenge....how to set a G threshold high enough to avoid setting it off (hit a gust, a tight Wojtec pull up, etc) while still sensitive enough to activate in a crash.
And in the real world I think the mounting of this G sensing device might be critical. You want it mounted to something very rigid so you don't attenuate the G reading but you want it far enough away from the turbine to give you as much time as possible for the sensor/valve to work before the turbine catches up to the crash (50 msec?)
ORIGINAL: siclick33
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
Given the cost, weight and complexity of adding another component, I would want to be reassured that it was worthwhile before adding them to my models.
04-08-2009, 02:36 PM
#56
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
i think sean has hit is on this one. I dont think it is going to be 100% effective due to different installs, battery packs igniting, etc. from my past knowledge (an infant is curbing jet rallys for a while) about 1 in 7 to 1 in 10 crashes results in a fire (we can check JPO database). if this device could trim that number down to 1 in 20 or 1 in 25 i think it would be saying something. as for turning a non-turbine friendly field into a turbine friendly, i think natural selection will be a quicker option.
04-08-2009, 02:44 PM
#57
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
You face the same challenge....how to set a G threshold high enough to avoid setting it off (hit a gust, a tight Wojtec pull up, etc) while still sensitive enough to activate in a crash.
There are 2 methods of shutting down a Jetcat turbine: 'Auto Off' and 'Off'. Off is used in an emergency and doesn't have any of the cooldown features. It is there as a safety backup and shuts down the engine instantly and leaves it alone. It does this by stopping the fuel supply. Forcing a flameout with CO2 may have a disadvantage in that the ECU will continue to pump fuel (and may even increase fuel flow) until the flameout has been recognised and the pump is stopped. Whether this would be of any practicable concern I cannot say.
04-08-2009, 02:48 PM
#58
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
[link]http://www.speedfreaks.net.au/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=103&Itemid=1[/link] Here's the one I was talking about earlier. I have been using these for 6 months now and haven't had the need for them yet.....
I guess the only down side is they go off after a fire has started not preventing it starting in the first place. Although it will save your model and in a crash it will rupture.
I guess the only down side is they go off after a fire has started not preventing it starting in the first place. Although it will save your model and in a crash it will rupture.
04-08-2009, 02:48 PM
#59
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
A few years ago, the FAA did extensive test on an additive which would not cause massive burning if a crash would happen.Well if you happen to the video of the FAA full size 707 crash at Edwards saw that even with the best equipment & recording devices available the TEST went askew when the plane was only 6 feet from its intend impact area.... WELL STUFF HAPPENS.
Look at some of the problems with Lipo batteries, seems they might be even more of a Safety Issue that a turbine. Don't get me wrong the airborne CO its a great idea,but not one that I would buy. Is this going to be another required item by the AMA ? I sure hope NOT.
Semper Fi
Joe
BTW On the corn fire. The only thing that would have saved the plane was not to take off as many thing happen before it impacted the ground all within 10 seconds .Bounced on landing, went vertical ,then took a nose dive.[
]
Look at some of the problems with Lipo batteries, seems they might be even more of a Safety Issue that a turbine. Don't get me wrong the airborne CO its a great idea,but not one that I would buy. Is this going to be another required item by the AMA ? I sure hope NOT.
Semper Fi
Joe
BTW On the corn fire. The only thing that would have saved the plane was not to take off as many thing happen before it impacted the ground all within 10 seconds .Bounced on landing, went vertical ,then took a nose dive.[
]
04-08-2009, 03:15 PM
#60
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
04-08-2009, 03:34 PM
#61
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: brownj
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
04-08-2009, 03:44 PM
#62
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: brownj
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
I remember someone on here years ago showed a video of someone spraying raw fuel onto the outside of a running turbine and it did not ignite. It smoked but no ignition.
I know I sound like a broken record, but you have to be able to prove this thing works before someone will buy it. Marty had a slick video that showed how quickly this thing worked on the test stand, it was_very_effective. But many people thought about the very things being discussed on this thread and he really did not come up with the answers.
The most effective way of proving this device works would be to show a statistically significant reduction in fires after many crashes, but that is a chicken and the egg problem because you can't collect that data until you have hundreds of these in service, and you will never sell hundreds of them unless you had the proof to begin with.
I mean look how many people for years claimed seatbelts did not work, and that airbags did not help. Those items took years (decades?) to become widely accepted.
04-08-2009, 04:29 PM
#64
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: Ron S
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
04-08-2009, 04:31 PM
#65
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
In my experience I would say that yes indeed, if you can shut the turbine down before the atomized fuel goes through the turbine you have greatly reduced the crash fire potential.
I remember someone on here years ago showed a video of someone spraying raw fuel onto the outside of a running turbine and it did not ignite. It smoked but no ignition.
I know I sound like a broken record, but you have to be able to prove this thing works before someone will buy it. Marty had a slick video that showed how quickly this thing worked on the test stand, it was_very_effective. But many people thought about the very things being discussed on this thread and he really did not come up with the answers.
The most effective way of proving this device works would be to show a statistically significant reduction in fires after many crashes, but that is a chicken and the egg problem because you can't collect that data until you have hundreds of these in service, and you will never sell hundreds of them unless you had the proof to begin with.
I mean look how many people for years claimed seatbelts did not work, and that airbags did not help. Those items took years (decades?) to become widely accepted.
ORIGINAL: brownj
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
I, and I'm sure every jet enthusiast, applaud this effort toward safety. While I'm certainly no fire expert, I'm skeptical that just releasing the CO2 into the turbine inlet will prevent 'most' fires following a crash. My guess is that the fuel leaking (or splattered) out of ruptured fuel tanks and contacting a hot surface is more of a concern than fires ignited by the internal turbine combustion itself. I.e., the heat the turbine generates, especially at the tail pipe, is 'probably' more than enough to ignite the kero. rather or not the turbine is running. Does anyone know the combustion temperature of kero?
I remember someone on here years ago showed a video of someone spraying raw fuel onto the outside of a running turbine and it did not ignite. It smoked but no ignition.
I know I sound like a broken record, but you have to be able to prove this thing works before someone will buy it. Marty had a slick video that showed how quickly this thing worked on the test stand, it was_very_effective. But many people thought about the very things being discussed on this thread and he really did not come up with the answers.
The most effective way of proving this device works would be to show a statistically significant reduction in fires after many crashes, but that is a chicken and the egg problem because you can't collect that data until you have hundreds of these in service, and you will never sell hundreds of them unless you had the proof to begin with.
I mean look how many people for years claimed seatbelts did not work, and that airbags did not help. Those items took years (decades?) to become widely accepted.
04-08-2009, 04:45 PM
#67
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: Zagzoo
I was the one who filmed it... lol and NO the fuel was not sprayed into the outside of it. Todd did a very severer wet start, the fuel was not spraying from the outside. The Co2 sprayed thru the injectors.
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
I remember someone on here years ago showed a video of someone spraying raw fuel onto the outside of a running turbine and it did not ignite. It smoked but no ignition.
I remember someone on here years ago showed a video of someone spraying raw fuel onto the outside of a running turbine and it did not ignite. It smoked but no ignition.
Gordon
04-08-2009, 04:49 PM
#69
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
OK - if that's correct then I've mixed the two videos up - but I do recall there being a video made of kero being sprayed onto the turbine, explicitly to demonstrate that kero doesn't light off as easy as we believe.
04-08-2009, 04:49 PM
#70
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: Zagzoo
They were out, my friend was the one who invented it. TJT dropped the ball on it. BVM said there wasnt enough room to put it in a jet. Basically the politics by the jet community killed it about 4 yrs ago. Dont know why there is another up roar about this 'new' onboard fire extinguisher when the first one failed to get support by the turbine community. Plus this new one looks like a slight upgrade to the first one.
ORIGINAL: Ron S
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
My memory is clearing, was it Florida Jets 2003 that Marty had it at? Anyway, everything I have said in this thread I said to Marty back then. So did Markus Zipperer from JetCat and Bob Wilcox as well. As you can imagine, a turbine vendor would really like to see someone succeed with this.
How did politics hurt this device?
04-08-2009, 07:00 PM
#72
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
My memory is clearing, was it Florida Jets 2003 that Marty had it at? Anyway, everything I have said in this thread I said to Marty back then. So did Markus Zipperer from JetCat and Bob Wilcox as well. As you can imagine, a turbine vendor would really like to see someone succeed with this.
How did politics hurt this device?
ORIGINAL: Zagzoo
They were out, my friend was the one who invented it. TJT dropped the ball on it. BVM said there wasnt enough room to put it in a jet. Basically the politics by the jet community killed it about 4 yrs ago. Dont know why there is another up roar about this 'new' onboard fire extinguisher when the first one failed to get support by the turbine community. Plus this new one looks like a slight upgrade to the first one.
ORIGINAL: Ron S
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
My memory is clearing, was it Florida Jets 2003 that Marty had it at? Anyway, everything I have said in this thread I said to Marty back then. So did Markus Zipperer from JetCat and Bob Wilcox as well. As you can imagine, a turbine vendor would really like to see someone succeed with this.
How did politics hurt this device?
04-08-2009, 09:14 PM
#73
Senior Member
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Demonstration
I spoke with the owner and preparations for a ‘Flame Out’ demonstration at Joe Nall in May are in process. In addition a demonstration next Saturday at the GRAMS club in Brown Summit, NC is planed. The club meets at 12:00 o’clock on Saturday.
There will NOT be a turbine crash. A wet start shutdown and a full throttle shut down will be demonstrated. A crash or inertia shutdown will be simulated.
Bill
I expect the Joe Nall demonstration will be on Friday.
Inertia shutdown will be preformed without batteries anywhere near ‘Flame Out’.
I spoke with the owner and preparations for a ‘Flame Out’ demonstration at Joe Nall in May are in process. In addition a demonstration next Saturday at the GRAMS club in Brown Summit, NC is planed. The club meets at 12:00 o’clock on Saturday.
There will NOT be a turbine crash. A wet start shutdown and a full throttle shut down will be demonstrated. A crash or inertia shutdown will be simulated.
Bill
I expect the Joe Nall demonstration will be on Friday.
Inertia shutdown will be preformed without batteries anywhere near ‘Flame Out’.
04-09-2009, 07:21 AM
#75
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
In my experience I would say that yes indeed, if you can shut the turbine down before the atomized fuel goes through the turbine you have greatly reduced the crash fire potential.
In my experience I would say that yes indeed, if you can shut the turbine down before the atomized fuel goes through the turbine you have greatly reduced the crash fire potential.
Obviously there are other sources of ignition in a crash but it is well known that kerosene does not ignite easily. Eliminating a running turbine as a primary source would be a good way to prevent post crash fires, even if not 100% effective.
Craig
