New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
04-09-2009, 11:03 AM
#76
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
To add some prevention to the list, and this will drop the possibilities of a fire is to remove the on board propane system. I no longer use propane on board and either does some of our members at our field and since then, there has not been any fires in the last 5 crashes at our field. The biggest perpetrator to our crash and burns is the on board propane.
04-09-2009, 12:02 PM
#77
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: BirdofpraY
To add some prevention to the list, and this will drop the possibilities of a fire is to remove the on board propane system. I no longer use propane on board and either does some of our members at our field and since then, there has not been any fires in the last 5 crashes at our field. The biggest perpetrator to our crash and burns is the on board propane.
To add some prevention to the list, and this will drop the possibilities of a fire is to remove the on board propane system. I no longer use propane on board and either does some of our members at our field and since then, there has not been any fires in the last 5 crashes at our field. The biggest perpetrator to our crash and burns is the on board propane.
Bob
04-09-2009, 12:32 PM
#78
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
It only takes the propane lines to give way to release the gas so even though the can isn't crushed it could still be a factor. The gas is the only volatile material on board. Even if it doesn't cause the fire it certainly would add to it and the difficulty in putting it out.
But, that's probably a whole 'nother debate...[:-]
But, that's probably a whole 'nother debate...[:-]
04-09-2009, 02:00 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Like causeitflies states, propane it the most volatile substance. On our jets almost 100% of the time in a crash the this gas escapes from either lines or some orifices that connects it.
04-10-2009, 04:12 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Here's some food for thought. Robin ran a few more tests on the Flame Out today. He got in touch with the people who make the CO2 cartridges and found out that they have 850psi. With the turbine not running, but the electronics turned on, Robin fired off the Flame Out several times and each time the turbine was instantly spooled up to 6400rpm.
Now for the good bit, if you watch the video again you may catch smoke coming out of the rear of the turbine when the Flame Out is triggered. Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore. So that smoke you see coming out of the back is vaporized fuel, fuel that has passed through the turbine the moment the Flame Out has been triggered. I found that little fact extremely interesting....
Now for the good bit, if you watch the video again you may catch smoke coming out of the rear of the turbine when the Flame Out is triggered. Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore. So that smoke you see coming out of the back is vaporized fuel, fuel that has passed through the turbine the moment the Flame Out has been triggered. I found that little fact extremely interesting....
04-10-2009, 04:30 PM
#81
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
I still don't understand why it is better to inject some CO2 in the running turbine instead of telling the ECU to shutdown the turbine immediately. Someone could develop a box which connects between the rx and the ECU and use an accelerometer to shutdown the turbine in case of a crash. The shutdown could be as simple as sending the throttle low / trim low signal. It appears that closing the fuel valve and turning the fuel pump off might happen faster than triggering a CO2 container. And also, no extra container would be required.
Of course, detecting a crash is not easy. But that problem is the same whether CO2 or a signal is used to actually shutdown the turbine.
Given the fact that accelerometers are now completely mainstream, I think it would make sense for turbine manufacturers to include this as an ECU feature.
Thoughts?
Arnaud
Of course, detecting a crash is not easy. But that problem is the same whether CO2 or a signal is used to actually shutdown the turbine.
Given the fact that accelerometers are now completely mainstream, I think it would make sense for turbine manufacturers to include this as an ECU feature.
Thoughts?
Arnaud
04-10-2009, 04:31 PM
#82
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
That's why you see these great big flames out of the back of engines that have seized. There is still a fire, and the pump increases in power till it registers RPM's have dropped.
Woketman can tell you all about it. ISOBURN!!
Woketman can tell you all about it. ISOBURN!!
04-10-2009, 04:35 PM
#83
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: CSpaced
Here's some food for thought. Robin ran a few more tests on the Flame Out today. He got in touch with the people who make the CO2 cartridges and found out that they have 850psi. With the turbine not running, but the electronics turned on, Robin fired off the Flame Out several times and each time the turbine was instantly spooled up to 6400rpm.
Now for the good bit, if you watch the video again you may catch smoke coming out of the rear of the turbine when the Flame Out is triggered. Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore. So that smoke you see coming out of the back is vaporized fuel, fuel that has passed through the turbine the moment the Flame Out has been triggered. I found that little fact extremely interesting....
Here's some food for thought. Robin ran a few more tests on the Flame Out today. He got in touch with the people who make the CO2 cartridges and found out that they have 850psi. With the turbine not running, but the electronics turned on, Robin fired off the Flame Out several times and each time the turbine was instantly spooled up to 6400rpm.
Now for the good bit, if you watch the video again you may catch smoke coming out of the rear of the turbine when the Flame Out is triggered. Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore. So that smoke you see coming out of the back is vaporized fuel, fuel that has passed through the turbine the moment the Flame Out has been triggered. I found that little fact extremely interesting....
04-10-2009, 05:00 PM
#84
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
CSpaced:
Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore.
Through testing Robin has realized that during the tests when the Flame Out is triggered, fuel is still pumping through the lines until the ECU catches onto the fact that the turbine isn't running anymore.
Siclick33:
Forcing a flameout with CO2 may have a disadvantage in that the ECU will continue to pump fuel (and may even increase fuel flow) until the flameout has been recognised and the pump is stopped.
Forcing a flameout with CO2 may have a disadvantage in that the ECU will continue to pump fuel (and may even increase fuel flow) until the flameout has been recognised and the pump is stopped.
04-10-2009, 05:27 PM
#85
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
The point I was trying to make was that even if fuel (from ruptured lines or the tank) entered the turbine it would not ignite because the Flame Out had extinguished and cooled the turbine.
04-11-2009, 08:12 PM
#86
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: BillS
Demonstration
I spoke with the owner and preparations for a ‘Flame Out’ demonstration at Joe Nall in May are in process. In addition a demonstration next Saturday at the GRAMS club in Brown Summit, NC is planed. The club meets at 12:00 o’clock on Saturday.
There will NOT be a turbine crash. A wet start shutdown and a full throttle shut down will be demonstrated. A crash or inertia shutdown will be simulated.
Bill
I expect the Joe Nall demonstration will be on Friday.
Inertia shutdown will be preformed without batteries anywhere near ‘Flame Out’.
Demonstration
I spoke with the owner and preparations for a ‘Flame Out’ demonstration at Joe Nall in May are in process. In addition a demonstration next Saturday at the GRAMS club in Brown Summit, NC is planed. The club meets at 12:00 o’clock on Saturday.
There will NOT be a turbine crash. A wet start shutdown and a full throttle shut down will be demonstrated. A crash or inertia shutdown will be simulated.
Bill
I expect the Joe Nall demonstration will be on Friday.
Inertia shutdown will be preformed without batteries anywhere near ‘Flame Out’.
Four high-speed full throttle engine shutdowns were performed on the bench. The turbine shut down in approximately three secounds and the temperature went from 580 degrees C to 280 degrees C in three seconds. The raw fuel pumped into the turbine during ‘Flame Out’ shutdown did not reignite. Everyone left understanding ‘Flame Out’ would extinguish the flame in the turbine at full throttle and during a wet start.
Crash/inertia simulation appeared to have more variance than expected and additional design changes are being made as we speak.
One important question developed. At what drop height on the nose on hard ground should inertia trigger ‘Flame Out?’ On a fully loaded airplane should the drop height be one foot or four feet or some other value. While we don’t expect anyone to drop the airplane on the nose some value that can be simulated needs to be determined.
Thanks for any input.
Bill
04-26-2009, 08:34 AM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
HI, I have done some more testing with my on board fire extinguisher. bob Wilcox , jet cat USA told me how to set the ECU for hot start testing. very hot start! http://rcuvideos.com/video/flame-out-test-2-mpg
spool up test, 7,300 RPM http://rcuvideos.com/video/spool-up-test-mpg
spool up test, 7,300 RPM http://rcuvideos.com/video/spool-up-test-mpg
07-14-2009, 12:30 AM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Have a look at page 10!
HAWE modelltechnik is selling it since a few years!
http://www.hawe-modellbau.de/katalog/Katalog.pdf
HAWE modelltechnik is selling it since a few years!
http://www.hawe-modellbau.de/katalog/Katalog.pdf
07-14-2009, 09:30 AM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
8-9 years ago I was interested as to what might cause fires when we crashed, as there was much speculation/misinformation then, and which apparently still exists in this thread.
My 'testing' was replicated by many respected modelers at the time....and we all came to the same conclusion: if the 'light' is out in the engine, then the turbine will not be an ignition source in a crash. There is no 'cooloing' needed...in fact I demonstrated that the surfaces on (even) a turbine running at max RPM (AMT Merc and Pegaus...and none run hotter
) will only 'smoke' the fuel...whether misted/spilled on the exhaust or even directly in the exhaust stream. Any fuel (misted/spilled/whatever) introduced into the intake of a running engine was an entirely different matter as has been indicated by others here: large fireball out the exhaust!
I tried to time things as best I could...perhaps tenths of a second after shut-down I misted fuel into the intake and there was only smoke out the exhaust (at any RPM). And shut-down seemed instantaneous w/ the Tx command (and w/ sprayed fuel introduction and Tx command virtually simultaneous). Shutting the fule valve off showed a significant delay, i.e., the engine first slowed, then lost ignition....i.e., not a viable way to prevent a fire in a crash. However, that was w/ the valve just before the pump (as I prefer a direct run/no connections to the engine on the pressure side)...but, as I recall, someone else showed there was still a perceptable delay on the pressure side, as well.
The above was the basis for mandating shutting down w/ a FS event, and of course, if a crash seemed imminant, from the Tx (spotter should reach over, etc.). I think it can be put to bed: if the engine is is 'out', even for a fraction of a second before intake fuel introduction, (however/if that can be effected), then it will not be an ignition source in a crash.
The trick is obviously that last part !
Ray
My 'testing' was replicated by many respected modelers at the time....and we all came to the same conclusion: if the 'light' is out in the engine, then the turbine will not be an ignition source in a crash. There is no 'cooloing' needed...in fact I demonstrated that the surfaces on (even) a turbine running at max RPM (AMT Merc and Pegaus...and none run hotter
) will only 'smoke' the fuel...whether misted/spilled on the exhaust or even directly in the exhaust stream. Any fuel (misted/spilled/whatever) introduced into the intake of a running engine was an entirely different matter as has been indicated by others here: large fireball out the exhaust!I tried to time things as best I could...perhaps tenths of a second after shut-down I misted fuel into the intake and there was only smoke out the exhaust (at any RPM). And shut-down seemed instantaneous w/ the Tx command (and w/ sprayed fuel introduction and Tx command virtually simultaneous). Shutting the fule valve off showed a significant delay, i.e., the engine first slowed, then lost ignition....i.e., not a viable way to prevent a fire in a crash. However, that was w/ the valve just before the pump (as I prefer a direct run/no connections to the engine on the pressure side)...but, as I recall, someone else showed there was still a perceptable delay on the pressure side, as well.
The above was the basis for mandating shutting down w/ a FS event, and of course, if a crash seemed imminant, from the Tx (spotter should reach over, etc.). I think it can be put to bed: if the engine is is 'out', even for a fraction of a second before intake fuel introduction, (however/if that can be effected), then it will not be an ignition source in a crash.
The trick is obviously that last part
!Ray
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Flame Out system is now in stock at http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/ns/acce/turbines/acce/ http://rcuvideos.com/video/F-86-propane-fire
10-12-2009, 02:27 PM
#95
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: CSpaced
I do not know anything about Todd Walters so I cannot comment on that. Size reduction of the unit has always been a priority, even before FJ, and as for sales prediction - only time will tell.
We do plan on running a practical test of this unit by performing a controlled (i.e. closed field, pro pilot) crash of a turbine powered model with this system installed. We will be filming it and it will post the video up once we are done.
ORIGINAL: lov2flyrc
Actually, Todd Walters developed this exact device back in 2004. He was working with TJT to market the device but there was very little interest in it back then... and these where the days when hot starts were common.
I worked closely with Todd during this period and while his unit did trigger on impact, he was not convinced it reacted fast enough to eliminate ruptured fuel ignition. As I told Robin at FJ, if he can produce the unit with a retail around 100.00 he may sell a few.... Glad to see he has taken the advice and reduced the size!!
Anyone remember the BVM ''Fire Extinguisher'' bladder on the Bobcats?
ORIGINAL: Ron S
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
I think TJT was offering something like this (onboard extinguisher) about 6 years ago, but it never went anywhere...
Actually, Todd Walters developed this exact device back in 2004. He was working with TJT to market the device but there was very little interest in it back then... and these where the days when hot starts were common.
I worked closely with Todd during this period and while his unit did trigger on impact, he was not convinced it reacted fast enough to eliminate ruptured fuel ignition. As I told Robin at FJ, if he can produce the unit with a retail around 100.00 he may sell a few.... Glad to see he has taken the advice and reduced the size!!
Anyone remember the BVM ''Fire Extinguisher'' bladder on the Bobcats?
We do plan on running a practical test of this unit by performing a controlled (i.e. closed field, pro pilot) crash of a turbine powered model with this system installed. We will be filming it and it will post the video up once we are done.
performing a controlled (i.e. closed field, pro pilot) crash of a turbine powered mode
10-12-2009, 03:56 PM
#96
RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Hot dam! We been talking about that for years! Can't wait to see the 2011 mandate that all RC jets must have this device on board [sm=bananahead.gif]
How soon can I get a couple, I might be able to get the OF's off our backs down here during droughts!!!
Hot dam! We been talking about that for years! Can't wait to see the 2011 mandate that all RC jets must have this device on board [sm=bananahead.gif]
How soon can I get a couple, I might be able to get the OF's off our backs down here during droughts!!!
Sean
Are you gonna contact AMA and make sure the mandate happens for us???? More AMA control... Just like the U.S. goverment.. I love it !!!
Later Dude !!!!
Danno
10-12-2009, 07:35 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
The Flame Out unit is designed to trigger from the transmitter, but it could activate automatically from a sever impact of the aircraft. Because there is no catch mechanism on the hammer that hits the firing pin
10-12-2009, 07:39 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
So could a stiff bump or something like that activate the hammer on take-off? Taking off of grass for example.
Chad
Chad
10-12-2009, 08:07 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
No, a stiff bump upon take off is not enough to activate the system. A sever hard landing which would cause the landing gear to tear up probably would not activate the sytem.
10-12-2009, 08:26 PM
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RE: New! On board fire extinguisher for jets
Mandates will be effective Jan. 1st 2010! LOL [8D]
The AMA does know about the Flame Out system, but it is my personal opinion that mandates are not in the future of RC jet usage. All fire extinguisher systems are useless until they are needed.
The AMA does know about the Flame Out system, but it is my personal opinion that mandates are not in the future of RC jet usage. All fire extinguisher systems are useless until they are needed.