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Another Skymaster Viper

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Old 08-31-2009, 09:12 AM
  #126
CraigG
 
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Matt,

As Morne says, your analysis it exactly right. With "slotted" or gapless control surface attachments like this, you have to calculate the geometry and intstall your hinges accordingly. This includes removing material from the rudder to allow hinge movement as you have descriped. The install is complicated somewhat when the control surface is tapered, like your fin, because the distance to each hinge pivot point from the leading edge is different. It's also hard to "test" your hinge placement and lack of interference prior to gluing them in place, after which they can't easily be moved. It all takes some time, careful measurements and trial and error. The good news; it doesn't have to be perfect but the more accurate, the better.

Another issue to consider is that the hinge on the fin side is unsupported where it protrudes in the leading edge of the rudder. This can cause the hinge to flex and potentially cause flutter. You need to make sure the trailing edge of the fin supports the hinges as close to the leading edge of the rudder as possible. With my Viper, I needed to add small blocks of hard balsa of varying widths at each hinge location to better support the hinges and to minimize the unsupported sections. Take a look at the pictures in post #102 on page 5.

And I will say this one more time, the supplied hinges look like Robart's but are inferior and not up to the task. The pivot pins are of softer material and have play in them and the hinges themselves will break/fail easier. Compare them side by side with a Robart's and then replace them!

Craig

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Old 08-31-2009, 11:31 PM
  #127
Matt Chapman
 
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

work continues on my Viper, however I have this nagging issue of the rudder on my mind. I have been thinking of a way to help the problem. I came up with an idea to help stabelize the rudder. As we all know, the bottom hing is well above the rudder horn creating a large moment arm for twist and leverage on that bottom hinge.
I have attached a few photos of a mod I did today. Quit simply, I added a ball bearing race in the fuse, and a pin in the base of the rudder in the center of rotation to help support the loads placed on the rudder from the horn and air loads.
A few issues were encountered. First, the angle at which the pin comes out of the bottome of the rudder, and the angle at which the tail slides down the carbon rods wont allow a pin to slide directly into the bearing. So, the amount of pin that extends into the bearing had to be rather short. About 2mm to 3mm. But, thats more that enough. Its all supported.
I located the center piont of rotation in the rudder, drilled and slid in a sharpened rod. Put the rudder/fin on the plane to locate and mark the fuse. Drilled a hole in the fuse fro the 3mm ID X 10mm OD bearing. I then drilled a 10mm hole in a piece of 3/8 inch plywood with a step drill on my drill press set at 12 degrees. This is the same angle of the rudder/fin relationship. This will allow the bearing to be held at a 12 degree angle when the wood block is attahced inside the fin area. I then fit and glued the block with the the glued bearing in place in the fin area of the fuse. I gluee the 3mm rod into th bottom of the rudder. Before the Vpoxy set, I put the fin and rudder in place on the model. I set the depth of the rod to about 2 to 3mm into the bearing. This is the only small issue. The pin moves forward as the assembly slides down as you install the fin/rudder, so you need to pull/push the rudder a small amount to get the pin to alingn with the bearing. The last photo is of the rudder in place and the pin can be seen.
I used a 3mm ID, 10mm OD 5mm deep Boca Bearing and a nice 3mm pushrod from an RC car maker. Simple stuff to find. Could just use standard hardware as well. The glue is setting up as we speak.... so i wont see the finished product until the morning, but I think this may well be a worthwhile mod for the Viper.
Here the pix. as always... feed back is welcome and encouraged. Any thoughts?
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:01 AM
  #128
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Matt, that's some great work you're doing there and thanks for taking the time to put the details down.

It's kind of discouraging seeing all the mods needed to make on of these Viper airworthy. I spent some time talking with a recent Viper builder at an event this weekend and was surprised at the amount of work he needed to do to the jet. Along with that, he had problems with a part that just shouldn't have been an issue.

I love this Jet and am on the verge of pushing the buy button but have reservations.

PaulD
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:26 AM
  #129
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Hi Matt,

great stuff! You're giving me lots of ideas. I should have my viper within a few weeks

Looking at the close-up of the rudder/fuse, and the space between them, would it be possible to add another (phenolic or PCB material) hinge just below the fin, but in the rudder?

That would make removing the rudder a non-issue. 2mm material would be enough I think.

Se attached pic

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Old 09-01-2009, 01:35 AM
  #130
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Paul.... I hear your frustration. This is my first jet and it took a lot to decide if i should do it or not. Then I get it and i start hearing all of the "issues" with the kit. To add to the frustration, it seems as if I'm hearing of the mods the day after I comlete that stage of building! I'm thinking we're stuck inbetween the guys that fly BVM's and all top of the line stuff trying to make this kit that level with mods, changes and $$, and guys like you and me just wanting a good, safe fun to fly jet.
My kit, to be honest is really quite nice. I got it through BVM and have been happy with most of it. While not a flying or structual issue, I'm mostly dissapionted with the cockpit kit. Not a lot of thought went into them and more seroius thought needs to be spent getting them right with all the stuff inside the fuse.
I have had a serious jet guy that flys all top level stuff loooking at my kit as it has progressed and he seems pretty happy with the quality.... My thought is, get the thing in the air...fly it some... decide if I like it.... assuming i dont dig a hole with it... then upgrade some of the stuff that may not be up to the long haul.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
matt
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:43 AM
  #131
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

When I was running ideas through my head I was thinking about a plate between the rudder and the fuse. You're correct.... plenty of room to do that. really the reason I moved in the direction i did was being able to get hold of the parts easily and not having to order stuff and wait. I wanted it done NOW! But your idea is really a better solution that would be easier to fit and glue with the exact same resuts.
With the short amount of pin going into the bearing, it really shouldnt be a problem to remove the fin/rudder..... Now of course I'll show up at the hangar in the morning and wont be able to remove the darn thing! I'll let you know! If you go with your idea... let us know how you do it and how it works. Good luck.
Matt
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:54 AM
  #132
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper


Quote:
ORIGINAL: PaulD


It's kind of discouraging seeing all the mods needed to make on of these Viper airworthy. I spent some time talking with a recent Viper builder at an event this weekend and was surprised at the amount of work he needed to do to the jet. Along with that, he had problems with a part that just shouldn't have been an issue.

I love this Jet and am on the verge of pushing the buy button but have reservations.

PaulD
I have on order one Viper jet (which presumably have not yet been produced), but going through this thread i am not feeling confortable with all the issues and the last thing i would like to see happen like most of us is loosing a jet due to structure failure of some sort.
PaulD could you please elaborate on the issue(s) your friend had on the Viper?

Regards,
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:19 AM
  #133
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Nice job on that mod Matt! You have created some great support in an area that most needs it. My solution was to install 5 hinges instead of the supplied 3 and made sure one of them was just above the rudder control horn. Your method is even better.

I hear what you are saying about just wanting to "get the thing in the air". Certainly issues like the cockpit can be delt with later but if you want a "safe fun to fly jet", issues like the rudder, landing gear/brake function and reliability, fuel system set up, radio install etc.. HAVE to be as absolutely correct as you can make them. I know you know this, but with the complexity of a jet there are just a lot of things that can go wrong, some you can control and some you can't. The "BVM level" (or mentality) is to make sure the things you can control, you do by using the "best" materials and methods available. This attention to detail is the proven way to a safe, fun jet versus a frustrating experience at the field dealing with "issues" or worse.

The SM Viper Jet is a good looking, great flying jet. You will love it. Dealing with these issues is just part of the process with ARF's. The relatively short amout of time you spend now getting everything right will pay dividends in the long run.

So concludes my short philosophical rambling on r/c jets,

Craig
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:33 AM
  #134
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Just to chime in here and say that out of the 8 Vipers that I have been involved with, put together, or flown. Only one of them ever suffered a rudder failure. That one was prototype number 1 that I collected at Jet Power, and even that was only when the rudder servo horn gave out.
Since then the only thing that you could class as a mod that we have been doing to the rudder is using a double servo horn with a ball link sandwiched between them. Also making sure we use a metal servo arm and a high power servo ( JR 8711 being the favorite ) and just building a support of either balsa or hysol for the hinges in the fin part to stop flexing. other than that they have all used the supplied hinges and push rods ( Although I have been putting a carbon tube over the push rod for extra rigidity ) None of them have had the rudder trimmed in anyway. As Craig has mentioned in the post above these are just small issues that are an everyday part of ARTF jets of today. I dont know of one single jet out there that doesn't have them.
Dont panic too much. As I am sure many happy viper jet owners out there will confirm this is one great model, and put together properly will reward the owner with many, many enjoyable flights.
Regards Al
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:00 AM
  #135
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper


Quote:
ORIGINAL: extra 300


Quote:
ORIGINAL: PaulD


It's kind of discouraging seeing all the mods needed to make on of these Viper airworthy. I spent some time talking with a recent Viper builder at an event this weekend and was surprised at the amount of work he needed to do to the jet. Along with that, he had problems with a part that just shouldn't have been an issue.

I love this Jet and am on the verge of pushing the buy button but have reservations.

PaulD
I have on order one Viper jet (which presumably have not yet been produced), but going through this thread i am not feeling confortable with all the issues and the last thing i would like to see happen like most of us is loosing a jet due to structure failure of some sort.
PaulD could you please elaborate on the issue(s) your friend had on the Viper?

Regards,
Sorry, since it's not my airframe I prefer not to post second hand information. The jet is certainly a beautiful kit and still plan to purchase one. Just take heed of what Ali says below and be prepared to fix a bunch of the "small issues".

IMO - Don't bother with the cockpit kit. The one I was looking at he had done himself. (See photo)

PaulD
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:04 AM
  #136
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

I also have one on order. I hope Anton is picking up on the problems people are finding & modifying future construction. He seldom seems to come on the threads to reasure prospective buyers. Nice to have a full order book, but some input from the manufacturer always helps.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:12 AM
  #137
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Hi,

There is no structural problems with the Viper. There is only one surface that the customer have to fit. This surface is the rudder. We assume that must pilots/builders know how to hinge and glue a rudder. But it seems that some think it is ok if the hinges are not supported by the structure. I do not think any person will glue unsupported hinges even on a 40 size trainer. Why do it on a Jet?

I agree on cockpit area - but thats it! Hardly anything to do with structure...

The 1st few Vipers had no hard points. But that were corrected long time ago...

There is simply no better flying jet in the world for double the money...ask those who actually fly them.

Regards

Morne
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:15 AM
  #138
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

I agree, the Skymaster Viper are great flying jets. I have 2 of them. Joe C!!
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:47 PM
  #139
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper



after this happend to my SKYGATE Viper ....



.... i want a new one but dont want to do all that work on the skygate kit.

I ordered a skymaster viper in same scheme.

Today the new one shows up

I must say thats one of the most impressive kits out of the box i`ve ever seen.

Thank you Anton

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Old 09-01-2009, 01:33 PM
  #140
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Ouch Steven, wat happened? [X(][X(][X(]
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:18 PM
  #141
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper


Quote:
ORIGINAL: NightSwan

Ouch Steven, wat happened? [X(][X(][X(]

looks like the ground pulled out in front of him
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:19 PM
  #142
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

lost TX Signal on 35Mhz ...

after that i changed to the new Jeti 2.4, works perfect
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:57 PM
  #143
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Nice scheme steven!

(I ordered the same one )

Maybe we'll meet on some show/meeting in Germany next year
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:07 PM
  #144
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Hi all,
I made about 50 flights and have had no problem in the rudder or any other element of the plane. I've completed the building field with the observations of jclittle(thanks). In the building area of the rudder, used hysol for the hinges in the fin part .
I do not hear other problems in this case or other (rudder) of the Viper. I think sometimes things are more simple and complicated as easy.( Respecting the work of all , of course)


Currently I'm building my second Viper Jet SM.

Norbert

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Old 09-01-2009, 03:16 PM
  #145
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

or we have a beer together on JP
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:41 PM
  #146
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper


Quote:
ORIGINAL: PaulD


IMO - Don't bother with the cockpit kit. The one I was looking at he had done himself. (See photo)
WOW..... those pilots look great. That's exactly what I need for mine.
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:44 PM
  #147
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

Hello everyone,

That's my plane Paul is referring to, so I guess I'll chime in. I got the pilots from Aces of Iron. Here's a link to the site:

http://www.acesofiron.com/3rd_scale_civ.htm

They are the 1/3 scale sport pilots and I can't recommend them highly enough. They are light and have great detail. They are only busts, so I made my own shallow cockpit tray from balsa with a light fiberglass. This set-up gives a lot of clearance for equipment underneath. The entire cockpit comes out with the canopy and is very rigid yet light. I made my own instrument panels in Photoshop and carved scale seat backs out of light balsa. I only used the dash covers from the Skymaster cockpit. You have to remember this model is around 30%. The real Viperjet only has a 30' span. I looked at a lot of photos and decided the 1/3 scale pilots were closest in size (maybe a touch too big.). I also bought 1/4 scale but they looked too small. Anyhow, that's what I did.

On another note, Paul is referring to my wing tube bending. It only bent about 4 degrees on the right side. I DO NOT want to get everyone alarmed and/or get flamed. Fact is that it happened and I would be remiss to not let folks know so they can check theirs. Mine pulled the aluminum tab out when it happened (photo attached). I fixed it and tweaked the tube back into shape and have flown many more flights with no incident. I wasn't flying too hard and have never landed the plane hard. I don't think it's even possible to land this plane hard! So just keep an eye on it everyone.

That said, I had the same issues as everyone else who has posted. Ali, Jeff T. and the others were a great source of info to get this plane in the air, which I did in about 5 weeks. And that gets me to my point - this is one of the best planes I have ever owned or flown. Jet or prop. With all of the small issues attended to, this is a sturdy and well-built airframe. Use common sense when assembling it and it will serve you well. So I am not criticizing, just passing along info, as have the others before me. I love this plane and the service/support I have received from Jeff Tolomeo at Skymaster USA.

Buy one, fly it and enjoy it. It's all the fun everyone says it is.

If anyone wants more detail on the cockpit or the actual graphics files I created for my dashboards or N numbers, let me know and I'll put them up for download.

Enjoy, it's just a hobby!

bb
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:40 PM
  #148
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CraigG

Matt,

As Morne says, your analysis it exactly right. With ''slotted'' or gapless control surface attachments like this, you have to calculate the geometry and intstall your hinges accordingly. This includes removing material from the rudder to allow hinge movement as you have descriped. The install is complicated somewhat when the control surface is tapered, like your fin, because the distance to each hinge pivot point from the leading edge is different. It's also hard to ''test'' your hinge placement and lack of interference prior to gluing them in place, after which they can't easily be moved. It all takes some time, careful measurements and trial and error. The good news; it doesn't have to be perfect but the more accurate, the better.

Another issue to consider is that the hinge on the fin side is unsupported where it protrudes in the leading edge of the rudder. This can cause the hinge to flex and potentially cause flutter. You need to make sure the trailing edge of the fin supports the hinges as close to the leading edge of the rudder as possible. With my Viper, I needed to add small blocks of hard balsa of varying widths at each hinge location to better support the hinges and to minimize the unsupported sections. Take a look at the pictures in post #102 on page 5.

And I will say this one more time, the supplied hinges look like Robart's but are inferior and not up to the task. The pivot pins are of softer material and have play in them and the hinges themselves will break/fail easier. Compare them side by side with a Robart's and then replace them!

Craig

G-DAY Craig
I have put the blocks in at the hinge points also,And I went one step further and hysoled the whole fin on to the fuse not having a transport problem help with that dission
it has made one solid fix, One thing for everybody to look out for,When I sanded the area back to glue, The area behind the leading edge and in front of the trailing edge
only had paint and glass with almost no epoxy in reality no root rib on the bottom of the fin so I filled the void with hysol, when fitted upright the hysol settled and fixed the
problem, Maybe one way to fit the rudder is to fit the same way as the Composit 2.6 Extra, long tube and pin, photo of front cockpit attatched.
REGARDS
John
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:42 PM
  #149
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Default RE: Another Skymaster Viper

shucks what did I do there
dento
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:51 AM
  #150
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: DENTO

shucks what did I do there
dento
Hello Dento,

Every once in a while I have had the same problem posting a photo on RCU...it comes out GIANT size. I do it the same way every time so I assume it's just some sort of uploading glitch. If I try it again later it usually works normally. Then again, I may be pushing the "wrong button" but if so, I've never figured out what it is.

Anyhow, thanks for the info.

Craig
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