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CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

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CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Old 08-26-2009, 04:55 PM
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FILE IFR
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Default CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Hi guys,

I'm just wondering what/how the experienced CD turbine guys think when an 'unknown' applicant arrives to a location to take the waiver test with an average/every day prop plane.

Let's say an applicant arrives with a Hangar 9, P-51 ARF with retracts, but NO flap option... Would you conduct the test or turn the applicant away because of the plane's limited performance and features; In other words, would you suggest the applicant return with a higher performance EDF WITHOUT witnessing the applicant fly the prop plane?

... I'm just curious what the individual CD's standards are.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:03 PM
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Redline7000
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Why does the AMA require a waiver for turbine aircraft, but none for EDF? Both are capable of high speed flight.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:08 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?


ORIGINAL: Redline7000

Why does the AMA require a waiver for turbine aircraft, but none for EDF? Both are capable of high speed flight.
I would imagine because of the complexity of turbine systems, The potential for fires/explosions etc..
Old 08-26-2009, 05:11 PM
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FILE IFR
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I've never witnessed a hot start with an EDF ship.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I believe using a prop is OK if the following is achieved:

1. The plane has both retracts AND flaps and
2. The plane is capable of doing 100 MPH or more

These were the 2 requirements I was told when I was seeking to get my turbine waiver and was building a Great Planes Patriot to fullfill those. Eventually I just got a Tam F-16 and was waivered on that. I am not a CD but to answer your question, personally, I would turn them down.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:25 PM
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vicman
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I would imagine because of the complexity of turbine systems, The potential for fires/explosions etc..
Sounds right since they don't require anything for pylon racers.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:29 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

The reason for the waiver is that the AMA safety Code does not allow turbines, therefore you need a waiver to get around the safety code.
Maybe at some point the code could be changed, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
Old 08-26-2009, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

as a waiver CD i won't sign you off unless the flight is accomplished on a turbine powered aircraft. the reason being that flying a fast aircraft with flaps/retracts is only a small percentage of what you need to know about turbine powered aircraft to be safe with one, i want to see you get it ready to fly and then start it up while explaining what you're doing and why.

it'd be like giving someone CDL after testing with a bicycle with a little red wagon pulled behind it.
Old 08-26-2009, 06:22 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

That's ashame because the regulations clearly states any aircraft that is capable of sustaining 100mph.
Steve
Old 08-26-2009, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Sorry, but as CD it's my discretion and I'm not alone, there are quiet a few who won't sign you off unless it's a turbine aircraft, and there are just as many who don't mind letting you use a prop plane.

if you read the qualification portion of the application it states as follows:

Objective: The purpose of the flight test for the turbine applicant to demonstrate their skills, knowledge, and understanding of how to safely operate and fly a turbine model aircraft..
i don't see that happening with a prop job...........but it's my opinion and other CD's have their own discretion on it.
Old 08-26-2009, 06:27 PM
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Joe C
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?


ORIGINAL: ianober

I believe using a prop is OK if the following is achieved:

1. The plane has both retracts AND flaps and
2. The plane is capable of doing 100 MPH or more

These were the 2 requirements I was told when I was seeking to get my turbine waiver and was building a Great Planes Patriot to fullfill those. Eventually I just got a Tam F-16 and was waivered on that. I am not a CD but to answer your question, personally, I would turn them down.
Ian you are right
Old 08-26-2009, 06:38 PM
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bevar
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

KC,

Your analogy is dead on...pretty funny too.

I personally think it is ludicrous for someone to be able to go to the field with...say a H9 P-51 or the like and get a turbine waiver with it. How do you demo a turbine start up? How do you demo proper use of safety equipment? It's completely ridiculous if you ask me. How do you show proficiency with turbine lag? It simply can not be done.

Beave


ORIGINAL: KC36330

as a waiver CD i won't sign you off unless the flight is accomplished on a turbine powered aircraft...

...it'd be like giving someone CDL after testing with a bicycle with a little red wagon pulled behind it.
Old 08-26-2009, 06:42 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I have yet to get my waiver... but seems like a no brainer to get it with a turbine... just logical to me. Until now I was under the impression you had to get it with a turbine. You can build a foamie that has retracts, flaps and goes like stink... but it's no where near the complexity of a turbine, let alone as dangerous.
Old 08-26-2009, 06:44 PM
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Joe C
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I would not sign off a waiver unless the pilot was flying a turbine that we know will fly well over 100 mph has flaps, retracks, brakes, rudder.
Joe C!!
Old 08-26-2009, 07:20 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

ORIGINAL: f16jc

I would not sign off a waiver unless the pilot was flying a turbine that we know will fly well over 100 mph has flaps, retracks, brakes, rudder.
Joe C!!
I disagree on the flaps/retracts portion (especially since its not in the waiver form). Lots of ARF turbine airplanes don't use flaps and many of the trainer jets don't have retracts nowadays.

I do agree the test should be done with a turbine though. While the form doesn't specify "Turbine" use in the test, there is enough knowledge questions etc that the test should be done with a turbine.

I plan to do my test with my F-16. It has not flaps, doesn't need em. It will do over 100mph though.
Would I fail if the retract system failed and the gear didn't go up?

Honestly what we are trying to accomplish here is knowledge of how to operate a turbine engine during startup/takeoff/landing/high speed flight/normal flight/slow flight. The test should be tailored to the persons specific turbine aircraft they are flying.

Also what if the person was trying to get the waiver for a turbo prop?

Your statement is geared toward a complex Military type Jet turbine only. Alot of turbine flyers have no interest in that. Some wiggle room should be allowed.

I'm already CD and I plan to get m waiver this summer (if I ever get time to finish my jet).


Old 08-26-2009, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

If you do not have a turbine why do you want a waiver JUST TO SAY YOU HAVE IT... If your planing to fly a jet I think that you should learn all there is to know about a turbine and fly on a buddy box with an instructor than when your ready take your test with your jet. I have a CD and waiver and i will not sign off any one unless they use a turbine.
Old 08-26-2009, 08:53 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

For the record for me, I earned my waiver 3 years ago with a friend's Ducted Fan MIG 29 (flap/retracts) and did the FULL AMA requirement of maneuvers and was quizzed on pre-start and post shut-down safety regarding turbines.

I'm satisfied and comfortable as I've earned it, it was not a 'gift'.... And I was nervous about it too.

Old 08-26-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?


ORIGINAL: FILE IFR

For the record for me, I earned my waiver 3 years ago with a friend's Ducted Fan MIG 29 (flap/retracts) and did the FULL AMA requirement of maneuvers and was quizzed on pre-start and post shut-down safety regarding turbines.

I'm satisfied and comfortable as I've earned it, it was not a 'gift'.... And I was nervous about it too.

Wow Mike! I didn't know you've had your waiver that long [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
Old 08-26-2009, 09:59 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Back then it was skill to fly an underpowered ducted fan jet! Mad props to ya!
Old 08-26-2009, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Amen, to the above post. It took quite a bit of skill to get some of the ducted fan equipment off of the ground. I see a difference in the flying skills of those who flew ducted fan in the past prior to flying turbines and those who did not. Throttle management is key on any airplane as well as proper training especially turbine powered aircraft. I can remember when runway length, and grass length on the safety over run were issues just to get a ducted fan jet into the air. I consider it a privilege to fly a jet with enough power to takeoff with authority all of which are taken for granted by others.

MACE
Old 08-26-2009, 10:35 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?


ORIGINAL: sweetpea01

Back then it was skill to fly an underpowered ducted fan jet! Mad props to ya!
LOL, kinda underpowered. I discovered early on that a glow D/F accelerates like a freight train... They take a while to get moving through the air, and after the fan catches up in a minute or so it's all speed. The 'Old School' stuff is still cool to fly. [8D]
Old 08-26-2009, 10:36 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?


ORIGINAL: hippo-1216

If you do not have a turbine why do you want a waiver JUST TO SAY YOU HAVE IT... If your planing to fly a jet I think that you should learn all there is to know about a turbine and fly on a buddy box with an instructor than when your ready take your test with your jet. I have a CD and waiver and i will not sign off any one unless they use a turbine.
This is for people getting INTO turbines. As anyone knows... you don't start with a turbine.
Old 08-26-2009, 10:44 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

I think, if a poll was taken, most CD's will not sign you off unless you are flying a turbine itself.

personally, I dont see the problem. if you want a waiver, get your turbine ready and use it for your test. There are two of us here that will sign you off, you must prove to us that you are ready for the next level in flying.. remeber, we are supposed to be the best of the r/c flyers.....

one of the newbie's we had at first wanted to use one of his other prop planes for his waiver test, after many discussions with him, he flew his turbine on a buddy box. when he was ready, took the test and past it with out any problems.................

Mark
Old 08-26-2009, 11:21 PM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

Honestly who is going to trust that kind of investment to a buddy box when numbers of trainers on buddy boxes go down each year?

For those of you who would like to rip on me, and you know who you are, it is an honest question.

I understand the idea behind it alright. Sheesh I can hear you all starting already.

GSR will be the first to reply and first to break every RCU forum rule in reply to my post AS ALWAYS.
Old 08-27-2009, 12:22 AM
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Default RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?

ORIGINAL: CowboyLifesaver

Honestly who is going to trust that kind of investment to a buddy box when numbers of trainers on buddy boxes go down each year?

For those of you who would like to rip on me, and you know who you are, it is an honest question.

I understand the idea behind it alright. Sheesh I can hear you all starting already.

GSR will be the first to reply and first to break every RCU forum rule in reply to my post AS ALWAYS.
???????

I don't understand your objection to buddy boxes. I have done a lot of instructing with them and while there are some things to watch out for, they are an overwhelming net positive.. I have damaged one plane because of the logistics of being "corded", but that is MORE than balanced out by countless saves. The risk/return ratio for buddy boxes has, in my experience, been OUTSTANDING.

I can say without a doubt that if called upon to instruct again, I will not hesitate to "cord up" in most cases and I will INSIST on it in others.

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