mkranitz

My Feedback: (60)

I have a propane-start JetCat HP5. Propane start has worked flawlessly in 30 odd starts. Powermax is just fine.

I have read threads about lubrication being better with Kero. On the other hand, I've also read that an ignitor failure dooms you at the field.

I'm interested in hearing members' opinions on which is better and why.

Thanks!

Sivadoc

A jet pilot was about to fly his f-16 at a local airshow a few weeks ago. The crowd was excited to see this big SM f-16, but unfortunately he got an ignitor failure. Another time a pilot said his starter battery had too low voltage as the engine would not start. I am not into jet yet, but so far it seems that propane start is more reliable?

schroedm

My Feedback: (1)

Kero start is soooo simple and easy. Just keep a scare igniter and all is well.

M

BaldEagel

The JetCat early ignitors seem to have had a problem with life expectancy, but the latest Mk 2 seem to last indefinatly, compared to the glow plugs needed for propane start they are far superiour and give a more consistant start up, the more up to date major manufacturers are now making turbines with internal Kero start ignitors which shows their faith in the system, my JetCat 120SX takes a little longer to start than my P80 with an external Kero start, but it has never failed to start and runs wonderully, I will never go back to a gas start and have made this a major factor when looking for a new turbine.

Mike

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

The JetCat kero start turbines can be toggled back to gas start in moments at the field. Should your hot surface ignitor fail and no spare is available, just toggle back to gas start and with about five minutes of replumbing the solenoid valves, you are in business....that is if you have the propane bottle with you.

Jeffpro

My Feedback: (1)

Love my 120SX, too, and just bought a 160SX to go with it. Neither has been flown enough to judge the long-term durability of the internal ignitors, but I do love kero-start and am hopeful that the SX ignition system will prove out in the long run.

bcovish

My Feedback: (8)

It's not that simple with internal start ignitors.

KC36330

It's not that simple with the SX versions, they can be converted to external kerosene start in an emergancy but it's a little aggervating and time consuming and that is if you have the wire/soldering gun and external kero plug on hand.

personally i don't see where keroesene start is easier or more convient then offboard propane.

i use propane (ditched the PowerMax yrs ago) and my JetCat's start first time every time, it can't get more consistent then that, plugs typically last yrs with hundreds of starts so the comment about kero start plugs being 'far superior' is just plain BS. on those rare occasions a plug goes bad it's a $5 replacement cost not a couple hundred.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Yea, I'm with KC. I don't believe that an SX engine with internal kero start can be converted to gas start at the field. They can be converted back to external kero start, but having a spare kero igniter around is an expensive proposition. On the other hand, glow plugs are inexpensive, reliable, and the possibility of having a wet start is significantly lower... Given the choice between an SX and an SE engine, I'd prefer the SE...

Bob

Henk Visser

Since 2 years P-70 P-80 P-120 SE both Kerostart no issue's!

This year P-160 SX no issue's so far!

I would never go back to gas start!

CraigG

My Feedback: (40)

KC,

When you use external propane with a JetCat, are you running the propane through the valve and letting the ECU control the flow or do you just do it manually? It seems like through the valve would be easier but does it work with the JetCat logic that is set up for Powermax?

Thanks,

Craig

KC36330

Craig,

i do it all manually (it's so easy my 6 yr old can do it) the only thing i leave in the jet is the pigtail with the 3-4mm adapter and the check valve (if you don't keep the check valve the hot air will push out the tube after it starts and melt it as well as the festo inside the front cover ). i see no reason to leave that expensive solenoid in there, i save it in case i ever need a spare on the fuel side.

one of your new club members (Thomas) has my old boomerang, it's setup the same way, have a look at it. he'd never touched a turbine before buying the boomer (it's got a P-70 in it) and after showing him how to start it once he had no problems at all getting a perfect start every time.

SinCityJets

Having used all three (propane, external kero, internal kero), the kero is without a doubt the easiest thing going. I was a HUGE fan of propane....right up until I got my first kero. Those not a fan of kero start, have just not used it or don't own one. While the internal kero is not user-serviceable, the lifetime of the plug is "supposed" to be quite a while, if not indefinite (read as: you will probably crash first).

My vote is definitely for internal kero start.

KC36330

I've used it, i still prefer propane. it's cheap (a buck will buy a pound bottle and it'll give a hundred+ starts plus it saves a solenoid so i actually save cash using propane), it's only about 30 seconds more work then a kerosene start, it doesn't drain hell out of the batteries and i get 1/3rd the wear and tear on my starter O-ring that you kerosene start guys do. the O-ring replacement job alone more then makes up for the 30 seconds per start i spend on the propane so it's a wash on time saved with either one.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

[/quote]

Yep, have a couple of SX engines too. Internal kero start is AWESOME! ... until it doesn't work, then it S&#$S and is expensive. You are right, the lifetime of the internal plug is "supposed" to be long, but I know a few guys who have had failures within a fairly short period of time, so there must still be a few bugs in the system. On the other hand, other than a burnt plug (relatively rare), I have yet to have a problem with gas after literally thousands of starts.

To each his own...

Bob

olnico

KC is perfectly right here. The drawbacks of kero start engines are:

1. Quicker starter components wear : o'ring, electrical motor and clutch ( although the 2 latter should last forever in normal conditions), faster ECU battery wear ( due to the draining conditions of 30 to 50 A peak )
2. Problematic glug replacement for the internal kero version
3. In the specific P-200 case, the ECU to engine loom might need to be re-wired due to the levels of peak current experienced ( over 50 A burst ). The original accessory kit starter/plug loom is undersized in that case and might lead to starting problems.

However and knowing these limitations, I still love kero start engine versions for the simplicity that they provide

The Jetcat SX engines cannot be converted to gas start because of one main reason:
The start capillary tube is not compatible with gas since it is far away from the old plug position and much different in size. The gas start sequence would result initially in no light up and then a succession of flame flashes that would not be stable.
The "gas start" option is locked in the limits menu of the SX engines for this reason.
The only option here could be to convert it at the field to external kero start. However I strongly doubt that it would work without modification of the start ramp parameter only available in the basic menu.
This basic menu is now rolling keyword protected and only Bob Wilcox in the USA and Roman Kulossek in Germany have the software tool to access it as far as I know.

SinCityJets

KC,

I don't know about the saving a solenoid thing. I know a lot of propane guys remove that second solenoid, but I think for safety's sake, I would leave it in. I never recommend to anyone to remove the propane solenoid valve. I figure if it's in the manual, it's a good idea to follow it.

Like I said above, I have used all three, and it's not that propane was difficult, it's just that the kero is that much easier. For newbies, I also think kero can be a little more safe to deal with.

Just my .02

Chad

KC36330

Chad

the solenoid is used by the ECU to regulate gas flow and then to stop the gas flow to the turbine once the turbine has reached a successful start temp.

once the turbine is running the only thing it does is prevent flow of gas to the turbine (if you have the onboard tank and didn't choose to dump it after startup) and prevents the back flow of hot air from the turbine (not the intended job, but it does it none the less). the Festo check valve accomplishes the same thing when using off board propane, one is just as good as the other, and one is just as likely to fail as the other so i have to disagree that there is a 'for safety's sake' involved with one over the other.

it boils down to: do i wanna use a $90 solenoid or a $9 check valve to do the same job...............i'll take the check valve.

SinCityJets

KC,

Does the $9 check valve also help regulate propane going in to the turbine at start up? No need to answer, this is a rhetorical question. There is a safety reason they are there, and that should not be minimized, especially for those that are new and just getting started. I know it can be done, and I have done it, although I would not recommend to someone else to do it that way.

Chad

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Well, I started using Kero-start years before most of you guys, since I had a BMT kero-start long before the big-name manufacturers deemed kero start feasible, economical, and worthy of their time.

Despite that, and despite having kero-start on my 160-SX, I'm still perfectly happy with my older propane-start Jetcats and I see absolutely no need to trade / convert them to get kero-start versions.

KC36330

No Chad, the REGULATOR on the propane bottle and the smarter then the average bear turning the knob does the regulating..........

it's not rocket science and you're welcome to use the solenoid valve if YOU want to, but it's NOT necessary and it's not a safety issue with or without it.

SinCityJets

Ahhh, that's the problem.....I'm just an average bear!

CraigG

My Feedback: (40)

Notwithstanding the issues/opinions on which is best, but just to clarify...JetCats will start OK using propane through the solenoid or without manually usuing a regulator?

Thanks,

Craig

KC36330

there are people who use 100% propane onboard (it has a tendency to bust the lines though), I'm sure it takes a little tinkering with the gas flow percentage but i see no reason it can't be done with the ECU doing all the work.

I've never tried it (was going to on Thomas' F-18 but never got around to it), but you can likely even hook the regulated bottle up directly to the check valve on your onboard setup, open the regulator with the bottle sitting right side up (so it gives gas not liquid) and initiate a start and it'll fire off with no problems, then just disconnect the propane and you've still got all your onboard equipment installed and ready for PowerMax if necessary.

George

My Feedback: (57)

Craig,

I used regular propane in my P-120 through the solenoid. Although I used a "regulated" valve, (because I had other engines and didn't want to keep switching to the "unregulated" valve every time I started it), I just opened it all the way and adjusted the gas flow for nice smooth starts. My wide-open regulated valve may not flow as much as an unregulated one, but no need to open the unregulated one all the way. My starts were so soft and smooth, so yes it does work. You may have to do some adjustments, maybe not.

George