David Gladwin

Guys your points are taken. I certainly like the look of the Xicoy telemetery and I totally agree about the excessive delay with the Wea transmitter which cannot help the company commercially. The 2014 season has started (Wroughton last Sunday !!) so the Tx is NOT ready for this year either, unless they do some pretty quick work . Most of my models have had their winter servicing, last thing I want to do is start reprogramming them for a new Tx now, particularly if I have to learn the complex programming. !

I have to admit that like Richbran I like to keep my operation as simple as possible.(I totally agree that newer glass cockpit, FMC equipped airliners are SO much less cluttered that the old dinosaurs , and SO much easier and safer to operate as a result ) I always connect nose steering to rudder, once set it needs no adjustment so no need to be on an extra channel, , similarly brakes, down elevator works great on ALL my jets so just one channel there. THREE channels for gyro gain ? I never use it on pitch (aircraft are naturally stable in this axis, never used it there) but the Wea allows me to set the gain on rudder, n/s and aileron, and disconnect the channel, perhaps a single channel would allow switchable gain for windy/ calm weather flying, but three seems excessive but its your choice and I respect that.

Perhaps I am just getting old but the three switches (light, smoke, airbrake) on my Hawk are about as much as I want to fiddle with BUT each to his own ! The intake ramps on my Mig will be linked to throttle angle, taxi will be with doors closed, at about 1/4 power, and always with gear up, they will be fully open, one channel, Wea with Giga Control makes it simple.

Certainly didn't mean my posts to be a Wea love fest but I have found that for my applications it just works so very well, hence my enthusiasm for the system, but that said that Xicoy/Jeti telemetry looks like something Wea will have to emulate.

Finally guys, PLEASE do not let THIS thread descend into anything personal. We have enough muppets on other threads who continuously dumb things down. Lets continue as we are, having an intelligent interchange of views, all such welcome. !

Roger we do NOT live on a land of perpetual drizzle, I wish, more like continuous pi55ing rain last month causing serious flooding but normality has returned, even went flying last Sunday.

Anyway why don't you come over with Jason for JetPower. A warm welcome (and a well stocked bar) awaits !

Back to some final priming on my SG Hawk and Mig hydraulics !! (and following the masses of discussion on the internet about MH370 )

David.

fireblade5437

Thanks Tom

Only just had chance to view.... looks good

Yes please if you can post diagram and whatever else you have, what IC did you use?

Alan

roger.alli

Agreed David. This thread really stands out on RCU as being free of BS and personal attacks. Lets keep it that way..

I guess we are all different. I don’t particularly like having brakes set on the same output as down elevator, much preferring a slider. It actually cost me a nose repair on my Bobcat once as I got confused with rate switches, and set point for the brakes.. My fault, but it wouldn't have happened with wheel brakes on a separate output and slider control.

Roger

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

On my original F-86 I put wheel brakes on down elevator but if i had to apply them hard when using a short runway it tended to lighten the tail and the model would wheelbarrow, scraping its wingtips, so I put brakes on a separate control and have stayed that way just for consistency between models.

There are some other ways to save channels. Lozza has a valve one of his models which I think is a Behotec valve, it does retracts and brakes from one spool thus one servo/channel to drive it, partial travel does retract and full travel does brakes.

On my E.E. Lightning I fitted David Gladwin's idea of an emergency retract blow down system but was able to make use of Weatronic receiver's programmability to drive two valves separately from two different switches on the Tx yet using just one Tx channel. Retract switch sends signal for example -100, +80 and Rx curve sorts this out though I think the jetronic valve would work quite happily anyway with those values. Emergency switch on the Tx makes the same channel go to +100 which the retract valve can ignore but the special curve in the Wea output for the emergency valve is L shaped so while it has ignored the retract signal between -100 and +80, at +100 the servo/valve moves to let the emergency tank blow the gear down. It's neat because it looks like two switches on tx each independently controlling their valve/servo on the model to do different things but it is all down the one same Tx channel.

I do a similar thing for the brake chute system where there are two servos, one for the cable attachment and one for the doors to the chute compartment, they are driven by one tx switch and one tx channel but like retract/door sequencing, the Wea's programmability lets me make the two servos do entirely different things at different times and speeds so they appear to be driven by two different Tx channels.

David Gladwin

Pretty certain I see what you mean, Harry, however the reason I use overtravel of the gear servo by mixing gear to gear, is to ensure that the retract valve is open so that any air in the up side of the pistons can escape, otherwise the gear may not extend (fully). Next plot is to try this system on my Mig 29 using high pressure, 250 PSI, to blow the hydraulic landing gear down. I have Festo pneumatic tubing rated at 500 psi for the job. (would you like a sample?)

Great stuff, keep it coming !!

David

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

I've got a jetronic valve on the retracts so over-travel won't make any difference to it.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

My system for the brake chute is designed to minimise risk of unwanted chute opening causing damage and makes use of the multi point curves in the Wea rx.
There is a possibility that a chute could get out of its box in flight and open up. At high speed the attachments or cables may break but in the landing circuit they should hold and it could cause a stall. It occurred to me that the cable doesn't need to be attached to the model during the flight, it only needs to be attached from the moment I operate the switch to open the chute. The cable loop is sitting next to the capture pin which is driven by servo, like a glider tow release. For all the flight the release is open so if the chute manages to get out of its box its cable is not attached to the model and it will fall harmlessly away. When I operate the chute switch, the cable release servo closes the release mechanism and captures the cable, meanwhile the servo that opens the box follows a top hat curve, pulling the spring loaded catch open and allowing the chute out, pausing, then closes again to relieve the servo pulling on the spring. It's pretty much identical to gear/door sequencing, the Weatronic rx programming taking one tx channel but making the two servos do different things.

luv2flyrc

My Feedback: (6)

Hi Oli,

I decided to go ahead with your suggestion even though it is quite expensive to send a Tx round trip from Canada to Germany. I contacted Jens and he said he would try to get the Futaba 12fg and the Wea module to talk with each other nicely. I will keep you all posted as this may help with getting some distribution with the Wea brand in USA. Might give me the 12 control channels I'm looking for too

Mike

ZB

Try imagine having 16 channels. :-), it's so easy to get used to good things.
My Ventus 2cx 6m Composit uses 4 channels per wing, retract, release, retractable pylon, door and wheel break. Almost run out of channels.

I am sure they will fix it, but it will take some time.

Zb

roger.alli

Hi Zb,

The large Weatronics receivers actually have up to 30 independently programmable servo outputs. Up to to 8 servos can be slaved to each Tx output. Each individual servo can be programmed and configured with its own curve/speed, gyro response etc. (All done on a PC using visual curves.) This makes multiple servo wings like your Ventus, an absolute breeze to set up.

I have a BVM F-100 which has one function requiring 6 servos, 2 for flaps and 4 for LE slats. One switch commands all 6 servos to move, but each servo can move at a different speed, or distance to the others.

Our issue here is that the third party Txs we are forced to use are limited with the number of output channels available..



Roger

richbran

A few reactions
(with a small risk of going too much off theme)

David, nice idea of the brake chute mechanism, I never used a chute, but I always wondered about the danger of a premature release. Maybe the full size jets use a kind like that as well. BTW, I talked to some F16 jockeys and they say the crosswind limits are decreased big time whenever a landing with a chute is planned. The chute will act as a huge weather vane, the rudder can't compensate that big force. Even with a 5 knot cross wind they had trouble staying on the RWY. The narrow track landing gear of the F16 doesn't help here neither.

Brake operation: it is a personal choice how the brakes are activated. Personally I don't like having to let go of one hand of my basic controls (I use mode-1) in a critical phase and start to fiddle with a slider. Maybe has to do with my former airline experience: You never took Your hands off the controls, unless the speed was way down to taxy speed, when You had to control the nose wheel steering with a side mounted "tiller".
I use the same idea for (big) model gliders, the last part of the air brake travel lever (which is the "throttle" lever... throttle close is full air brake) the single wheel brake comes into action. The only drawback is that you normally fly "full throttle" on gliders. The spring action of the new WEA TX throttle lever could be helpful in that respect, but time will tell if it is retained on the production sets.
The fact that I brake a glider with the throttle lever iso the elevator on a jet model is no issue to me as they are completely different models.

Door sequencing: I have made some remarks to WEA that are on my wish list: (travel)direction dependent programming curves and speeds: If a "simple" electronic y-cable from SM Modellbau can have that feature, why not WEA?

Emergency gear down system: after an issue with my Pirotti Tuono (which I had to land on concrete on its under slung wing tanks, resulting in no more that some scratches on the underside of the tanks) I was tinkering about the Tamjets system http://www.tamjets.com/OSCnew/produc...roducts_id=759 anybody use it?
It is really sickening that no matter how many hundred of times You check the gear system during building, and never having failed, is does when flying, Murphy's all over the place here....
Indeed, the air must not be trapped in the "UP" circuit part, or nothing will help.

Gyro's: Indeed fixed wing models should be sufficiently stable around all three axes so that a normally trained and able homo sapiens can control it. Especially on pitch. Visual roll behaviour can be improved by a gyro like for flying a big model jet airliner or large bomber to do away with those tell tale turbulence induced wing movements. Nice for shows or contests (if they are allowed).
Maybe I didn't experiment enough with flying gyro stabilised roll control: I found it was getting sluggish.
With my Pirotti Tuono and because of different brake behaviour of the individual wheel brakes, it was difficult to keep it straight when braking on the concrete runway I fly. The wide track landing gear saved my tips on a few occasions!
So I put a gyro function on nosewheel steering. The gyro is selected ON by the gear (function) and the gain is controlled by the elevator function. The more I press "down", the higher the gain comes into action. Tracks like a train nowadays during roll out. NO additional channel or switching needed!

Weatronic manuals: they are indeed a various points incomplete, however, an example like the gyro settings of HarryC is wonderful (and yes please do keep them online), one might ask how far a company must dive into a user level. How many books like Windows for dummies or high level technical manuals, tutorials and tips have been written by other companies or individuals about Windows, other than Microsoft itself.
Some German users even wrote a Wiki page for WEA.
I myself wrote a condensed check list (In German and Dutch) for updating and binding all the WEA hardware. A few friends of mine now use it successfully.

ZB: we stem from an era that we needed "channels" to control our models. But WEA and other brands solve that in another way nowadays, WEA specialises in doing that in the RECEIVER, as opposed to other brands in the transmitter.
You need "Functions" to control a plane, like aileron, rudder, gear and so on, mostly four basic and then a few other, dependent of the complexity of the model. Not that many in fact. But ONE function sometimes needs to operate more than one servo, of which the two aileron servo set up is the most common example.
You can use a "dumb" transmitter and still control many servo's of a complex aircraft with Weatronic. It relieves one of Y-cables (electronically programmable or not), programmable servo's(HITECS are terrible to program!), programmable output from powerboxes and the lot.
So even a 12 "channel" Micro WEA receiver You can use with a simple 4 "channel" TX, You might say you have 4 channels plus 8 "Y-cables" available, fully adjustable and all, plus that can be mixed with each other to Your liking.

David Gladwin

Hi Rich, Just the sort of discussion we need on RCU please keep them coming !

A few points.
Drogue chutes. They do work v well BUT. I flew the Victor in the RAF with a huge drag chute, like hitting a brick wall but when streamed with cross wind on a wet runway, (just when its needed !) it concentrated the mind as it headed into wind, only alternative to going off the side was jettison !

I think it v important to have a weak link to protect against inadvertant streaming.

Glad you share my view on brakes, down elevator has been working fine for me for many years and is now instinctive. Some fullsize gliders I have flown have the wheelbrake activated by the spoiler lever, works fine. The brake action on the Wea BAT throttle will be retained because its a beautifully simple cam system and all cams are easily replaceable. You get a set of various cams with the Tx.

Gear doors, I am sure that Wea could easily incorporate your suggestion by a software update !

Emergency gear operation. My system works, thoroughly tested. On my new SkyGate Hawk I will also plum in an extra air supply from compressor bleed on the Olympus. At max rpm the pressure should be able to unlock the gear and slowly slide the downlock into place.

Gyros. Love the integrated Wea gyros. Use them on aileron, N/S and rudder but it does make things sluggish unless you increase travel or adjust expo. Can't see any real advantage on pitch so never use gyros there.

I totally agree that the Wea system can make a dumb transmitter very capable. Add a Wea system to a v good Tx (JR 12x etc) and you have VERY powerful system, which for my system set up techniques (keeping everything as simple as possible to minimise in flight work-load) makes even twin Mig 29 set up a doddle. (and a pleasure)

The Wea manuals do cover the basics but judging by the amount of time I have spent on the phone explaining points to Wea users, its obvious that even those simple manuals don't seem to be read in any detail ! That said I would still like to see a comprehensive manual.

Harry's contribution on the gyro is invaluable, thanks Harry.

However, I do strongly disagree with Harry about Wea telemetry, to me the vast amount of data downloaded is pure gold. An in-depth assesment of the electronic performance in flight is invaluable and a huge safety advance.

Many of us have been following the search for MH370. If the 777 had had a system like Wea with a continuous data downlink including GPS or IRS position broadcast on ACARS, the aircraft would have been found by now, perhaps even the cause of the disappearance. Perhaps this will be the future with the high speed advance of electronics with MH370 being the trigger.

My BAT 60 is on charge ready for a Skype link with Wea.

Regards to you all,

David.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

We don't disagree David, we are talking about different things. Like you I find the data logging invaluable and it is one of the big reasons why I went with Wea, for use in metal clad jets which pose a challenging environment for the 2.4Ghz signal. That's why I specified it is the sensor telemetry system that is bad. Other than GPS or vario, you have to fit a big and very expensive MUX box, so if you want a drive battery voltage or current sensor, as many would do in small models, it is either ridiculously costly, or simply can't be done because the MUX box is too big to fit in the model. Most other brands either have or are moving over to a simple serial bus, no MUX box required, or where they do have a sensor box it is a sensible price. Wea needs to go down the serial bus road too, especially once they have the BAT60 all processing, alarms etc can be done in the Tx.
I mentioned this to them at JetPower and got the feeling they are well aware of it and given time/resource would like to fix it

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

I have used the Tamjets device and it does the job well and I will use them in more models. It saved my F-100 when a leak developed. One snag is that it requires an on-board gear/door sequencer, or else you have to buy two Tams failsafes. If you use Tx sequencing through two channels, or Wea Rx sequencing, you need two Tam failsafes, one one each output channel.

The reason I fitted David's emergency blow down system to the E.E.Lightning is that it is well known for struggling to get the main wheels down against the airflow, as they are huge wheels at the end of long legs with twist and turn, usually they only come part down and don't lock until slow on finals and that with 120psi. By definition a Tam gear failsafe can only operate the gear when the pressure is lowered so if it did its job when a leak occurred there would unlikely be sufficient pressure especially by finals to get the wheels down. In this case it made sense to fit David's system where I can blast a fresh tank at 120psi into the system when slow on finals.

Re gyros. If control is getting sluggish it is because the gyro does not have fade-out, which reduces the gain as you move the stick. Without fade-out the gyro will fight against you and reduce the servo travel. Most add-on gyros have fade-out already built in to them, but the ones in the Weatronic Rx do not so you have to program the fade-out yourself. How to do that is the main element of my Wea gyro programming guides. You can mostly overcome it by mechanically increasing the travel but there are good reasons why not to do it that way, so programming a fade out is much better.

Although the models are stable there are still good reasons for gyro especially on rudder and to a lesser extent on aileron. Yaw stability on jets (full-size and model) can be poor with the result that the plane fishtails. Many model not just jet models will fishtail a little. But with a swept wing as found on many jets, the fishtailing also causes rolling due to the dihedral effect of a swept wing, the rolling is out of phase with the yawing, and that is the unpleasant "Dutch roll". It does not cause a control problem but it looks bad. Full size have a "yaw damper" which is basically a rudder gyro system to stop the fishtailing, and if you stop the fishtailing you stop the rolling. Therefore on a model jet it is good to have a rudder gyro if it is needed to stop any Dutch rolling.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

A report from a customer at the Weatronic stand at the Sinsheim show last week. Seems no progress.
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...EA-in-Sinsheim

tms-ger

Hi HarryC,

my glass is still full one-half, what about yours ? maybe empty one-half... Never the less, things are moving:

Wildau , 24th of March 2014 - weatronic sets the next highlight with the new transmitter BAT 60 at the Fair in Sinsheim. In addition to the large, capacitive 5-inch touch screen display now each transmitter comes with a build in Wi-Fi module. Everyone remembers the old times where even the high-end radios were equipped with very small screens. Programming someone’s models was difficult and also very time consuming, and with the small screen it was extremely uncomfortable to keep track of all the various settings. All transmitters of weatronic will offer the marvelous opportunity to map the software interface on a separate device simultaneously via the Wi-Fi module. Devices like smart phones, tablets, laptops or normal PCs can be used to display additional menu structure tabs but also programming and adjusting your model will be possible. Thus, for example some main functions may be adjusted and at the same time you can check the servo monitor or telemetry data. The participants of the weatronic workshops at the fair in Sinsheim were impressed. A very helpful feature and many modelers will be grateful, and not only the advanced pilots.


best regards

Tom


PS: I see that you have done many good comments (ie gyro manual) to the WEA theme, and critics are allowed. But it must not be too much and over and over again. That was, what Arount meant with his comment, especially regarding the partly written bull**** in the german forums.

tms-ger

Hi Alan,

sorry for the delay...

I used this ST device: http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/te...CD00000134.pdf

See figure 17, I used that section as a basis and reduced the partcount to the max, ie use only one channel (mono).

Physically, that "Speaker-Stack" is roughly build up in this sequence:
1st thin piece of felt for keeping the membrane clean / free from dust particles; potentially coming in from the outside (through speakerhole in the TX backplate)
2nd the speaker from that old Blackberry phone (8700g) -> ebay 1 EUR
3rd the two ("big")capacitors
4th the IC I used a trimmer-potentiometer for adjusting the volume to suit my needs.

The parts are only a few bucks, the result at the field is real fine :-)

If you need, I can take a picture of that "stack", I have one here as a sparepart...

Note that Arnout (ajs56a) has done a similar solution.


best regards

Tom

ajs56a

100% correct Tom

ajs56a

And a report from the Weatronic Support (Jens Ackermann) about the Sinsheim exhibition:

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...30#post3381830

tms-ger

Thank you Arnout, but as expectet, see the quality of the follow-ups in that new thread... Pure trash, nothing else...

ajs56a

Yeah right ... and the thread is already closed.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

That thread didn't take long to deteriorate really badly! It's no surprise then that you are sensitive about it.

tms-ger

Hi Harry,

thatīs the case of course with Arnout and me...
---

Just found that for information:

Wildau, the 29th of March 2014 - weatronic also shows international proximity to customer. For the first time people in and around Oslo were able to enjoy a workshop of weatronic. Set in a historic building the sales manager Ralf Hartmann presented together with the service manager Jens Ackermann the portfolio of weatronic including the new transmitter BAT 60. Questions were answered and all participants were surprised by the technical possibilities and the very high standards of safety. A successful first event in Norway.


best regards

Thomas

luv2flyrc

My Feedback: (6)

Has anyone been in touch with Jens in the last few days? I was in regular contact with him regarding the 12FG that I sent in for them to look at up until two weeks ago. Now, I haven't gotten an email response in the last week and a half? Is he possibly on holiday? I was just beginning to believe that service there was changing.

Mike

richbran

Mike

I asked a few questions 3/18, nil answer neither...