Black Smoke???
11-05-2009, 05:34 AM
#51
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RE: Black Smoke???
Todd,
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBrEdxICxY&feature=PlayList&p=D1553A5AC4A6FA27&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4]This[/link] may be your [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9X3TNUIIi8&feature=PlayList&p=D1553A5AC4A6FA27&index=5&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL]answer[/link], or just convince those that you are working with that going to afterburner and eliminating the black smoke altogether would be better all around while preserving the stealthiness of the UAV. Of course, having the ablilty to make black, white and zero smoke does have it's advantages.
These guys seem to have it figured out.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1on5pNgDP0[/youtube]
I really do think the temperature may be the biggest variable in the equation. Like Gene says, it may be a matter of somewhere in the turbine. Or it may be outside the turbine and downstream of the exhaust by a considerable margin, maybe even as much as a couple of feet where the EGT is down to somewhere below 400 degrees. It'll be interesting to see what the final answer is.
Good Luck
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBrEdxICxY&feature=PlayList&p=D1553A5AC4A6FA27&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4]This[/link] may be your [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9X3TNUIIi8&feature=PlayList&p=D1553A5AC4A6FA27&index=5&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL]answer[/link], or just convince those that you are working with that going to afterburner and eliminating the black smoke altogether would be better all around while preserving the stealthiness of the UAV. Of course, having the ablilty to make black, white and zero smoke does have it's advantages.
These guys seem to have it figured out.[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1on5pNgDP0[/youtube]
I really do think the temperature may be the biggest variable in the equation. Like Gene says, it may be a matter of somewhere in the turbine. Or it may be outside the turbine and downstream of the exhaust by a considerable margin, maybe even as much as a couple of feet where the EGT is down to somewhere below 400 degrees. It'll be interesting to see what the final answer is.
Good Luck
11-05-2009, 07:33 AM
#52
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RE: Black Smoke???
I am not sure this would work, but adding -lamp black- to the oil in a ratio to keep it suspended might work. I am not exactly sure where we got this for another purpose several years ago. Lamp black is just carbon powder as a result of combustion. Very dark black. Should disburse nicely and not cause environmental damage.
The dye ideas really are not good around people. There may be other powders that could be mixed with the oil... of course it would have to be mixed prior to flight to keep from settling.
If you try the idea, could you let me know if it worked?
The dye ideas really are not good around people. There may be other powders that could be mixed with the oil... of course it would have to be mixed prior to flight to keep from settling.
If you try the idea, could you let me know if it worked?
11-05-2009, 08:09 AM
#53
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RE: Black Smoke???
The key will be the oxygen. Not air, but oxygen. The vaporized fuel in the tailstream of the turbie is a rich environment for flame. the particles are dispersed so finely that the refractive index of the moelcules is giving you the illusion of a white vapor. If you could "energize" that vapor with a little oxygen (higher concentration than the 14% in normal atmosphere) you would have a rapidly burning mixture (when ignited) that would carbonize and leave you with a thick heavy trail of black smoke, just like the F4. The key would be two things. First a one way valve on the oxygen line to prevent burn back up the line, and second some form of ignition once the vaporized fuel / O2 mix is in the stream. you would also need a fair amount of protection on the rear of the plane, it is gonna get real hot back there.
Believe me, I have seen things burn with oxygen that you would never think could catch fire. All it will take is a small amount in the fuel vapor.
Believe me, I have seen things burn with oxygen that you would never think could catch fire. All it will take is a small amount in the fuel vapor.
11-05-2009, 08:37 AM
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RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: DocYates
The key will be the oxygen. Not air, but oxygen. The vaporized fuel in the tailstream of the turbie is a rich environment for flame. the particles are dispersed so finely that the refractive index of the moelcules is giving you the illusion of a white vapor. If you could ''energize'' that vapor with a little oxygen (higher concentration than the 14% in normal atmosphere) you would have a rapidly burning mixture (when ignited) that would carbonize and leave you with a thick heavy trail of black smoke, just like the F4. The key would be two things. First a one way valve on the oxygen line to prevent burn back up the line, and second some form of ignition once the vaporized fuel / O2 mix is in the stream. you would also need a fair amount of protection on the rear of the plane, it is gonna get real hot back there.
Believe me, I have seen things burn with oxygen that you would never think could catch fire. All it will take is a small amount in the fuel vapor.
The key will be the oxygen. Not air, but oxygen. The vaporized fuel in the tailstream of the turbie is a rich environment for flame. the particles are dispersed so finely that the refractive index of the moelcules is giving you the illusion of a white vapor. If you could ''energize'' that vapor with a little oxygen (higher concentration than the 14% in normal atmosphere) you would have a rapidly burning mixture (when ignited) that would carbonize and leave you with a thick heavy trail of black smoke, just like the F4. The key would be two things. First a one way valve on the oxygen line to prevent burn back up the line, and second some form of ignition once the vaporized fuel / O2 mix is in the stream. you would also need a fair amount of protection on the rear of the plane, it is gonna get real hot back there.
Believe me, I have seen things burn with oxygen that you would never think could catch fire. All it will take is a small amount in the fuel vapor.
I would research more along the lines of either suspending a carbon product (creating an aerosol/suspended particles) EG the "white" smoke oil mechanism. Or obtaining a less effiecient combustion.. Just my HO.
Someone mentioned Carbon black which would work, but dispersing it into fine droplets is another thing..
Pete
11-05-2009, 08:46 AM
#56
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RE: Black Smoke???
The black smoke is from the burning of the carbon, not the atomization. The efflux on the turbines is just hot enough too cause it to vaporize, and it is not burning. Try holding a torch to the tail end of turbine with the "white smoke" coming from it and see what will happen, especially if you can increase the oxygen content just a little bit. The vaporized material should ignite and will not burn too effeciently. There should be plenty of black smoke.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a "balck, greasy" smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a "balck, greasy" smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
11-05-2009, 09:23 AM
#57
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: DocYates
The black smoke is from the burning of the carbon, not the atomization. The efflux on the turbines is just hot enough too cause it to vaporize, and it is not burning. Try holding a torch to the tail end of turbine with the ''white smoke'' coming from it and see what will happen, especially if you can increase the oxygen content just a little bit. The vaporized material should ignite and will not burn too effeciently. There should be plenty of black smoke.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a ''balck, greasy'' smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
The black smoke is from the burning of the carbon, not the atomization. The efflux on the turbines is just hot enough too cause it to vaporize, and it is not burning. Try holding a torch to the tail end of turbine with the ''white smoke'' coming from it and see what will happen, especially if you can increase the oxygen content just a little bit. The vaporized material should ignite and will not burn too effeciently. There should be plenty of black smoke.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a ''balck, greasy'' smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
I've been trying to apply chemistry to this issue but nothing has come up to answer it yet. I read about people that have been working on this for 10 years. The people from Super Dri took years to perfect their white vapor looking smoke. They also have tried to get color. These guys are the leading provider for aviation smoke. They have had guys on this forever.
I still think there has to be a breakthrough that someone hasn't thought of.
11-05-2009, 09:27 AM
#58
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: SJN
The B-47 and B-52 must have lots of oxygen comming out the back then
The B-47 and B-52 must have lots of oxygen comming out the back then
Its not vapor though. I'm sure if we ran crappy fuel in our turbines we could get black smoke out of them. The rpms wouldn't be as great and we would loose thrust.
Note that big jets can fly faster with smaller, fewer engines now to. Back then those engines provided a fraction of the thrust that the newer smaller engines create.
11-05-2009, 09:31 AM
#59
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RE: Black Smoke???
When you break apart the carbon molecule you get several things. Energy being the most sought after component. Heat and smoke are also created. The more effeciently we get the energy from the combustion of the carbon molecule, we decrease the amount of the other items (namely smoke). Those early turbines were extremely ineffecient. if we had the same amount of effeciency in our microturbines that was present in those early models they would not even get off the ground.
11-05-2009, 09:46 AM
#60
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: DocYates
When you break apart the carbon molecule you get several things. Energy being the most sought after component. Heat and smoke are also created. The more effeciently we get the energy from the combustion of the carbon molecule, we decrease the amount of the other items (namely smoke). Those early turbines were extremely ineffecient. if we had the same amount of effeciency in our microturbines that was present in those early models they would not even get off the ground.
When you break apart the carbon molecule you get several things. Energy being the most sought after component. Heat and smoke are also created. The more effeciently we get the energy from the combustion of the carbon molecule, we decrease the amount of the other items (namely smoke). Those early turbines were extremely ineffecient. if we had the same amount of effeciency in our microturbines that was present in those early models they would not even get off the ground.
11-05-2009, 09:48 AM
#61
RE: Black Smoke???
The Kingtech k80 runningon diesel seems to smoke allright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHP07...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNA-mvqAUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcsk...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHP07...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNA-mvqAUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcsk...layer_embedded
11-05-2009, 09:50 AM
#62
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: SJN
The Kingtech k80 runningon diesel seems to smoke allright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHP07...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNA-mvqAUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcsk...layer_embedded
The Kingtech k80 runningon diesel seems to smoke allright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHP07...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNA-mvqAUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcsk...layer_embedded
11-05-2009, 09:51 AM
#63
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RE: Black Smoke???
Many many years ago when I was still in school we went through classes to learn how to weld. Both Heliarc and Oxy-acetylene welding. I recall that if you put to much acetylene into the torch you got a nice black plume of smoke. I'm guessing that an acetylene source in the plane (small tank) with an electronic shut off valve, nozzle and a pizio electric ignitor or glow plug might give you the black you are looking for. Lighting the acetylene in the rapid air flow might be a challenge so a form of flame holder would be required. That system certainly avoids the messy oil and dye issues.
11-05-2009, 09:52 AM
#64
RE: Black Smoke???
so has anyone emailed / called their respective engine manufacturer regarding the use and potential effects created by using diesel, turpentine etc.? I sent an email yesterday to AMT USA but haven't called yet.
what if any changes to the turbine oil - fuel ratio would be required?
I think there could be some value in asking them to look into this possibility and ,time permitting, report back their findings. I'm sure all the manufacturers have spare engines they can test different fuel types, primarily diesel, which would be commonly available for all of us.
just a thought
cheers
buck
what if any changes to the turbine oil - fuel ratio would be required?
I think there could be some value in asking them to look into this possibility and ,time permitting, report back their findings. I'm sure all the manufacturers have spare engines they can test different fuel types, primarily diesel, which would be commonly available for all of us.
just a thought
cheers
buck
11-05-2009, 10:05 AM
#65
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: Square Nozzle
Many many years ago when I was still in school we went through classes to learn how to weld. Both Heliarc and Oxy-acetylene welding. I recall that if you put to much acetylene into the torch you got a nice black plume of smoke. I'm guessing that an acetylene source in the plane (small tank) with an electronic shut off valve, nozzle and a pizio electric ignitor might give you the black you are looking for. Lighting the acetylene in the rapid air flow might be a challenge so a form of flame holder would be required. That system certainly avoids the messy oil and dye issues.
Many many years ago when I was still in school we went through classes to learn how to weld. Both Heliarc and Oxy-acetylene welding. I recall that if you put to much acetylene into the torch you got a nice black plume of smoke. I'm guessing that an acetylene source in the plane (small tank) with an electronic shut off valve, nozzle and a pizio electric ignitor might give you the black you are looking for. Lighting the acetylene in the rapid air flow might be a challenge so a form of flame holder would be required. That system certainly avoids the messy oil and dye issues.
] oh well
11-05-2009, 10:34 AM
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RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: DocYates
The black smoke is from the burning of the carbon, not the atomization. The efflux on the turbines is just hot enough too cause it to vaporize, and it is not burning. Try holding a torch to the tail end of turbine with the ''white smoke'' coming from it and see what will happen, especially if you can increase the oxygen content just a little bit. The vaporized material should ignite and will not burn too effeciently. There should be plenty of black smoke.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a ''balck, greasy'' smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
The black smoke is from the burning of the carbon, not the atomization. The efflux on the turbines is just hot enough too cause it to vaporize, and it is not burning. Try holding a torch to the tail end of turbine with the ''white smoke'' coming from it and see what will happen, especially if you can increase the oxygen content just a little bit. The vaporized material should ignite and will not burn too effeciently. There should be plenty of black smoke.
I may be totally wrong here, but I am not sure how you are gonna get a ''balck, greasy'' smoke from just atomization.
Those pics of the B52s and B47s show an engine where a huge amount of fuel is being injested and burned ineffeciently. In that case there is not enough oxygen there for a complete burn and you get the large amount of carbon. Introduce a higher oxygen level in the engine and you would not get as much smoke. there is a fine balance here in the combustion of these hydrocarbons. I think in our case where we are atomizing the hydrocarbons, we could get smoke by introducing a small amount of oxygen and then igniting the mixture.
It is a result of the hydrocarbon molecule not being fully converted to thermal/radiant energy or oxidized and leaving behind substances (mostly cabon) that require more energy than is present in the system (In this case an exauhst stream) to continue to react with O2.
The idea of introducing O2 to the exaust stream to interact with vaporized fuel is interesting but I don't think a vapor (having a relatively high O2 supply as compared to a solid or liquid) would be the best state of fuel.
If there was some way to disperse Carbon black or similar the same way smoke oil is dispersed that should work. I can't find anything so far. Not a theoretical disertation of any kind.
11-05-2009, 10:39 AM
#68
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RE: Black Smoke???
Hey, wait a minute. What about some sort of solid fuel source in the exhaust area that would absorb just enough energy to smolder/chemically react?
Not practical?
Pete
Not practical?
Pete
11-05-2009, 11:13 AM
#69
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RE: Black Smoke???
Side track, sorry. Time to insert funny F4 / Smoke story.
I was a Crew Chief on F4's at Ramstein AB Ger. During one of our Flugtag air shows I was off duty wondering around the static displays with a group from my squadron. We came across a US Army tracked AA missile launch vehicle loaded with aim-7's with a soldier proudly showing it off to the gawkers. See, we had Army on base as our airfield defense. After telling him we were Ramstein F4 crews he was especially excited to give us, the actual people he was there to defend, the VIP tour. All was going well and we were mildly impressed that the DOD saw fit to give the Army something this advanced to play with, until he got to the IFF. He was trying to explain when they would engage a hostile and he was pointing at what we knew to be a pretty widely used, familiar transponder. It went something like this… "When the green light comes on it's hostile and we engage… no, uhh, when the green light comes on it's friendly and…" "…it doesn't matter we only shoot at smokers, we don't have any jets that smoke." I think at that point we lost a couple of the aircrew in our group so they could go puke.
11-05-2009, 12:40 PM
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RE: Black Smoke???
Hi all
Actually pure drinking milk (cow-milk) could happen to produce more soot than steam – thus making black smoke.
At least it does turn brown/black at quite low temperatures..
Actually pure drinking milk (cow-milk) could happen to produce more soot than steam – thus making black smoke.
At least it does turn brown/black at quite low temperatures..
11-05-2009, 03:44 PM
#71
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RE: Black Smoke???
Hi All
I asked Tony about the K-80 grey / white smoke and he uses straight diesel with 5% oil I believe He said the soot was not too bad. I don't know if Taiwan has #1 or #2 Diesel from the pump.
I wanted to try it but have not had the time to do so yet. In Hawaii all we have is #2 Diesel and it's cloud point and Cetane rating are much farther away from Kero than # 1 Diesel, so we may need to add 10% gasoline like they do for the frank turbines in Germany.
I asked Tony about the K-80 grey / white smoke and he uses straight diesel with 5% oil I believe He said the soot was not too bad. I don't know if Taiwan has #1 or #2 Diesel from the pump.
I wanted to try it but have not had the time to do so yet. In Hawaii all we have is #2 Diesel and it's cloud point and Cetane rating are much farther away from Kero than # 1 Diesel, so we may need to add 10% gasoline like they do for the frank turbines in Germany.
11-05-2009, 03:56 PM
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RE: Black Smoke???
Ok so what GooseF22 said makes sense.
The old J79 smoked due to lower than optimum temps during combustion.
As most of our turbines have combustion chamber temps above 700C (EGT =650C + so combus temp must be higher) so no smoke.
For Todds issue as he does not have to deal with AMA legalitys so if one could make a mini afterburner that fed Kero and burned at a lower temp he might get black smoke. IE a little can with a flame holder attached to the end of the stainless smoke tube, it would be interesting to try on the bench.
Aloha
Duke
The old J79 smoked due to lower than optimum temps during combustion.
As most of our turbines have combustion chamber temps above 700C (EGT =650C + so combus temp must be higher) so no smoke.
For Todds issue as he does not have to deal with AMA legalitys so if one could make a mini afterburner that fed Kero and burned at a lower temp he might get black smoke. IE a little can with a flame holder attached to the end of the stainless smoke tube, it would be interesting to try on the bench.
Aloha
Duke
11-06-2009, 12:21 AM
#73
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RE: Black Smoke???
Just gonna throw this out here. AeroTech Consumer Aerospace makes a model rocket motor propellant (solid) called Black Jack and Black Max that leaves a heavy black trail on ignition. It might be worth dropping them an e-mail and seeing if they'd reveal what kinds of compounds burn black, as I'm sure that they don't worry about an incomplete combustion process. Possible you could liquify something out of what they tell you and pump that into the exhaust of your jet????
11-06-2009, 08:16 AM
#75
RE: Black Smoke???
ORIGINAL: trioval00
I should ask my Ex-wife about black smoke, seems there is plenty of black smoke when she tries to cook dinner...........
I should ask my Ex-wife about black smoke, seems there is plenty of black smoke when she tries to cook dinner...........