F22 : Shame on you !
12-10-2009, 03:19 AM
#52
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: John Redman
We have arm chair politicians believing 40 year old birds are the king of the air (eagles). and those rain theories are just a laugh.
We have arm chair politicians believing 40 year old birds are the king of the air (eagles). and those rain theories are just a laugh.
John,
Not sure when or how I became an "armchair politician", but name-calling aside, the age of the F-15 doesn't change its service (or, more importantly, COMBAT) record. As far as rain theories are concerned, those aren't mine. What I read was an excerpt from that I.G. report that was part of the pile of paper whose cover got the big, red "CANCELLED" stamp on it. Maybe it's complete B.S., I don't know. I just know that if it's a 'laugh', it's a laugh that the SecDef had.... At any rate, you've always been a real gentleman to me (at least in front of me) and I've publicly said so time and again so if disagreeing with you on the F-22 gets me your discourtesy, then I'll keep my opinion to myself about it! Maybe I should anyway because I've never served in uniform (at least not a military one) and therefor am not entitled to an opinion on anything remotely related...
12-10-2009, 08:03 AM
#53
Thread Starter
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Well said about the f15 Shaun !!! F15s forever !
Here is one fact :
The power to weight ratio is way higher on the f15 compared to the f22, hence better acceleration and climb (although the f15 cannot climb as high as the f22 is able to).
Another fact : a so called "stealth" f117 was downed by outdated flak during yougoslavia war not so long ago. Food for thought.
Here is one fact :
The power to weight ratio is way higher on the f15 compared to the f22, hence better acceleration and climb (although the f15 cannot climb as high as the f22 is able to).
Another fact : a so called "stealth" f117 was downed by outdated flak during yougoslavia war not so long ago. Food for thought.
12-10-2009, 08:48 AM
#55
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: Strykaas
Another fact : a so called ''stealth'' f117 was downed by outdated flak during yougoslavia war not so long ago. Food for thought.
Another fact : a so called ''stealth'' f117 was downed by outdated flak during yougoslavia war not so long ago. Food for thought.
Dumb luck does happen! Put enough flak in the air and something will get hit.
12-10-2009, 08:55 AM
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: N/A,
AP
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Long live the f-15.
Long live the f-4
Long live the f-106
Long live the f-86
Long live the P-51.
Each were revolutionary in their day.
Stryykaas you are transparent and your past post history reveals your true intent. here is a thought..... discussion of the rafale without mentioning the raptor! Im flattered that you have such a passion on what we choose to defend our homeland....Well maybe im just flatulenced.
Long live the f-4
Long live the f-106
Long live the f-86
Long live the P-51.
Each were revolutionary in their day.
Stryykaas you are transparent and your past post history reveals your true intent. here is a thought..... discussion of the rafale without mentioning the raptor! Im flattered that you have such a passion on what we choose to defend our homeland....Well maybe im just flatulenced.
12-10-2009, 09:25 AM
#57
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
BamBam,
I think more correctly said would have been "on what we choose to defend your homeland". It seems that saving the French is a national pastime for the U.S.
Beave
I think more correctly said would have been "on what we choose to defend your homeland". It seems that saving the French is a national pastime for the U.S.
Beave
ORIGINAL: bambam102
Im flattered that you have such a passion on what we choose to defend our homeland....Well maybe im just flatulenced.
Im flattered that you have such a passion on what we choose to defend our homeland....Well maybe im just flatulenced.
12-10-2009, 10:07 AM
#58
My Feedback: (8)
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
As BamBam102 stated, long live the legends. They had there time, it was great, and now it is over.
Shaun, go back and read your post. You spoke like you had the answers and pushed a few of my fighter jock brothers aside. I am going to cover them whether I have met them or not. Those who have served and are serving protect forever. Buying 6 refurbed F-15's compared to one new F-22, my guess is you are not fully aware of what lies in that statement. There isn't enough band width to explain it nor do either of us have the time. Believe it or not, most don't get the real data, that is left to the smart ones.
Eagles had there day just as the F-4 and a few others, no doubt about it. But that day is drifting away quikly. The Raptor will takes its place at the top of the food chain and stay there until the next one rolls out. You stay with your eagle, she was a rgeat bird. I'll go with the new ugly monster and after the fight probably won't see you at the bar; all eagles will be smoking holes.
As for hte 177 going down in Yugoslavia, there is far more to that that I know and unfortunately can't state here or anywhere for that matter.
All in all guys, this thread has become and will continue to be the political nightmare of the year. All the great ones are on ouor side and we are on top. That is hte main deal.
Shaun, go back and read your post. You spoke like you had the answers and pushed a few of my fighter jock brothers aside. I am going to cover them whether I have met them or not. Those who have served and are serving protect forever. Buying 6 refurbed F-15's compared to one new F-22, my guess is you are not fully aware of what lies in that statement. There isn't enough band width to explain it nor do either of us have the time. Believe it or not, most don't get the real data, that is left to the smart ones.
Eagles had there day just as the F-4 and a few others, no doubt about it. But that day is drifting away quikly. The Raptor will takes its place at the top of the food chain and stay there until the next one rolls out. You stay with your eagle, she was a rgeat bird. I'll go with the new ugly monster and after the fight probably won't see you at the bar; all eagles will be smoking holes.
As for hte 177 going down in Yugoslavia, there is far more to that that I know and unfortunately can't state here or anywhere for that matter.
All in all guys, this thread has become and will continue to be the political nightmare of the year. All the great ones are on ouor side and we are on top. That is hte main deal.
12-10-2009, 11:09 AM
#60
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,289
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes
on
11 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
12-10-2009, 11:15 AM
#61
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
12-10-2009, 11:24 AM
#62
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Semper Fi
Joe
Enrique ...I wish you & your Family a Save ,Healthy,& Happy Holiday Season
12-10-2009, 11:24 AM
#63
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
The problem with that scenario is that the link between the UCAV and the guy in the bunker is very fragile - even more so in a dog fight situation - and without the link, the UCAV is more vulnerable than a clay pigeon. On the other hand, the computer that can out fly and out fight a man-in-the-loop system is decades away, if ever (especially if you have to put it ON the aircraft!). Thus in the air-superiority role, a manned fighter (the F-22/F-35) will be supreme for some time-to-come. Once air superiority is achieved, then by all means, send the UCAVs in for the A2G fight...
Bob
12-10-2009, 11:27 AM
#64
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Block 50's? Are you serious? The Block 60 F-16s have the AN/APG-80! Superior to the earlier radar system as well as compatibility with the AIM-132. Andf more importantly the entire backbone of the electronics is MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic based now...
12-10-2009, 11:31 AM
#65
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: , GA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
If it's up to Obama, all Military jets will be obsolete. Instead, he will go to whatever country who is a threat, bring Oprah and apologize for us being Americans [:'(]
12-10-2009, 11:36 AM
#66
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Yep, he has already cancelled the replacement for the C-5, the KC-135, the AMB (avanced medium bomber) and the rest of the F-22 fleet.
Of course, that isn't stopping China, Russia, India and Pakistan from developing their own 5th Generation fighter, new bombers and new tankers which all four will sell to anyone who has the cash for them...
Of course, that isn't stopping China, Russia, India and Pakistan from developing their own 5th Generation fighter, new bombers and new tankers which all four will sell to anyone who has the cash for them...
12-10-2009, 11:46 AM
#68
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,289
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes
on
11 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: rhklenke
Enrique,
The problem with that scenario is that the link between the UCAV and the guy in the bunker is very fragile - even more so in a dog fight situation - and without the link, the UCAV is more vulnerable than a clay pigeon. On the other hand, the computer that can out fly and out fight a man-in-the-loop system is decades away, if ever (especially if you have to put it ON the aircraft!). Thus in the air-superiority role, a manned fighter (the F-22/F-35) will be supreme for some time-to-come. Once air superiority is achieved, then by all means, send the UCAVs in for the A2G fight...
Bob
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
The problem with that scenario is that the link between the UCAV and the guy in the bunker is very fragile - even more so in a dog fight situation - and without the link, the UCAV is more vulnerable than a clay pigeon. On the other hand, the computer that can out fly and out fight a man-in-the-loop system is decades away, if ever (especially if you have to put it ON the aircraft!). Thus in the air-superiority role, a manned fighter (the F-22/F-35) will be supreme for some time-to-come. Once air superiority is achieved, then by all means, send the UCAVs in for the A2G fight...
Bob
Yes, the link could be fragile and likely to be attacked by the enemy force, but how about a basic and simple program with a pacman IQ, for example, coordinating 6 UCAV´s together against one brilliantly piloted manned fighter in case of comunications failure? the poor guy in the fighter will not have a chance.
12-10-2009, 11:49 AM
#69
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Posts: 6,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: raptorlogo
As usual in USA , Jim is better, bigger and more stupid than everyone over the world !
As usual in USA , Jim is better, bigger and more stupid than everyone over the world !
12-10-2009, 11:50 AM
#70
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin
Block 50's? Are you serious? The Block 60 F-16s have the AN/APG-80! Superior to the earlier radar system as well as compatibility with the AIM-132. Andf more importantly the entire backbone of the electronics is MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic based now...
Block 50's? Are you serious? The Block 60 F-16s have the AN/APG-80! Superior to the earlier radar system as well as compatibility with the AIM-132. Andf more importantly the entire backbone of the electronics is MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic based now...
I'd be short changed.
12-10-2009, 11:51 AM
#71
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: uncljoe
TOO TRUE .... Did anyone see news article about the the Latest RPV (Believe it is the Boeing 45)that was over Afghanistan ... The FUTURE IS HERE.
Semper Fi
Joe
Enrique ...I wish you & your Family a Save ,Healthy,& Happy Holiday Season
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Semper Fi
Joe
Enrique ...I wish you & your Family a Save ,Healthy,& Happy Holiday Season
12-10-2009, 11:52 AM
#72
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Posts: 6,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: Strykaas
Can you tell me the point of sending 6 f22 over there with them not being commercially available ? They did not engage exercises.
Can you tell me the point of sending 6 f22 over there with them not being commercially available ? They did not engage exercises.
Yes.
They simply showed up to show everyone else what would be taking them out if they continue with their quarreling.
What the others don't know about the fighters capabilities remains a tactical advantage.
12-10-2009, 11:55 AM
#73
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: P-51B
Yes.
They simply showed up to show everyone else what would be taking them out if they continue with their quarreling.
What the others don't know about the fighters capabilities remains a tactical advantage.
ORIGINAL: Strykaas
Can you tell me the point of sending 6 f22 over there with them not being commercially available ? They did not engage exercises.
Can you tell me the point of sending 6 f22 over there with them not being commercially available ? They did not engage exercises.
Yes.
They simply showed up to show everyone else what would be taking them out if they continue with their quarreling.
What the others don't know about the fighters capabilities remains a tactical advantage.
That company has the best Engineers in the world. Bunch of great guys. Unfortunately non of them parlevous Franacais.
12-10-2009, 11:56 AM
#74
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,289
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes
on
11 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: uncljoe
TOO TRUE .... Did anyone see news article about the the Latest RPV (Believe it is the Boeing 45)that was over Afghanistan ... The FUTURE IS HERE.
Semper Fi
Joe
Enrique ...I wish you & your Family a Save ,Healthy,& Happy Holiday Season
ORIGINAL: erbroens
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Interesting times, I think that in less than five years all the best fighters will be obsolete, if not already.
How about a fleet of unmanned combat vehicles, piloted by a guy in a bunker, quickly assembled by functional rapid prototyping? They will simply own the skies and this is happening right now.
Enrique
Semper Fi
Joe
Enrique ...I wish you & your Family a Save ,Healthy,& Happy Holiday Season
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...e-23cc9f365167
and thanks U.Joe, hope we all here have a nice holiday season, and have a lot of nice flights in 2010 too!
12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
#75
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thurso, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Hi
This thread nearly always crops up every three or so months. It always starts off as an interesting debate then rapidly degenerates into the usual farse of my countries planes are better than your countries planes. If it ain't built in America it is crap etc etc etc.
Well little history lesson. Every time nation x goes into a fight believing it has an edge it gets a nasty shock because they make the fatal mistake of underestimating the other guy.
The F-22 is a hell of a jet and at the moment the best in the world but as it has already been well reported in the aviation press it doesnt have the edge many arm chair generals believe it does.
Stealth is one side of a race that has been going on all through history. A race between reducing the rcs and developing ever smarter electronics to find the plane against the clutter. The RAF have at least a partial solution and have proven it against the F-22. The excuse was the plane was not in full stealth mode the reality is that the facts are being spun.
If anyone thinks that the F-22 will kick ass against all comers then I strongly suggest you think again. How do I know? History and human ingenuity. Every major military power is working hard to develop counter measures to stealth, Whether it is optical, bi static radar or some other combination of sensors and they are keeping it damn quiet.
So if you wish to continue to believe that the F-22 will sweep all before it then I am happy to let you believe that. As for me, I dont really want to find out as it will mean we are in a serious S**T storm and good people are dying.
Now would someone bring out a kit of the YF-23 please.
I await the usual jingoistic flak.
M
This thread nearly always crops up every three or so months. It always starts off as an interesting debate then rapidly degenerates into the usual farse of my countries planes are better than your countries planes. If it ain't built in America it is crap etc etc etc.
Well little history lesson. Every time nation x goes into a fight believing it has an edge it gets a nasty shock because they make the fatal mistake of underestimating the other guy.
The F-22 is a hell of a jet and at the moment the best in the world but as it has already been well reported in the aviation press it doesnt have the edge many arm chair generals believe it does.
Stealth is one side of a race that has been going on all through history. A race between reducing the rcs and developing ever smarter electronics to find the plane against the clutter. The RAF have at least a partial solution and have proven it against the F-22. The excuse was the plane was not in full stealth mode the reality is that the facts are being spun.
If anyone thinks that the F-22 will kick ass against all comers then I strongly suggest you think again. How do I know? History and human ingenuity. Every major military power is working hard to develop counter measures to stealth, Whether it is optical, bi static radar or some other combination of sensors and they are keeping it damn quiet.
So if you wish to continue to believe that the F-22 will sweep all before it then I am happy to let you believe that. As for me, I dont really want to find out as it will mean we are in a serious S**T storm and good people are dying.
Now would someone bring out a kit of the YF-23 please.
I await the usual jingoistic flak.
M