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  1. #101
    cactusflyer's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: Strykaas

    You can see in that video the holes made by FLAK.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/F-117.MPG
    Yep, That's what happens when the war fighters are required by their leaders to fly the same ingress and egress routes for nearly ALL the missions. All it took was a couple guys in Italy with a cell phone to call when the F-117 took off and a clock to determine when the bird was going to pass overhead.........or wait for the return after the bombs were dropped.... Fish in a barrel courtesy of military "leadership"..........And this is from a guy that was forced to plan this stuff that way...............

    Tailwinds,

    John
    Proud to be a rookie!

  2. #102

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    Um, the T-38 that took down the F-22? Do you even know HALF the facts of that mission?

    1.) A T-38 doesn't even have a radar system.
    2.) They were doing dissimilar training. The guy flying the F-22 was a nugget right out of Tyndall, one of the first nuggets even in the F-22 program, the guy flying the T-38 was one of the first pilots rated on the F-22. It was a mission to prove a VERY important point. Its not just the aircraft, its also the guy in the cockpit.


    As for F-22 up-keep:

    As of lot 6: 3.22 flight hours per maintenance event. The first few aircraft required about 30 hours maintenance per 1hour of flight as was widely reported, but those liberal bastions of news failed to mention that the guys doing the maintenance WERE STILL BEING TRAINED. Thus far in 2009, the average is about 10.5 hours of maintenance per hour of flight. The F-15C? Around 7.6...

    The F-22 on average costs us about $30k per flight hour. The F-15 C? About $20k per hour.

    None of that information is totally classified so I'm not quite sure what petsy351 is getting at.

  3. #103

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    Quote the maintenance costs in 20yrs for the F-22. That would be more accurate than comparing it to a 20yr old F-15 or quote the costs of an F-15 when it was only a few yrs old.

    Also you don't need a radar in BFM. BFM is about knowing the enemy's plane as well as your own. That loss is a perfect example.......the plane doesn't make the pilot. The pilot makes the plane. Don't think the enemy hasn't realized this and started to increase their training to rival that of the USA.

    And comments like.......it'll never be in a dogfight. Well when a 4ship of Raptors with say 8 weapons apiece (32 weapons) goes up against a wall of enemy fighters of lets say only 20. Figure that the weapons are only going to kill 3/4 of the intended targets and the enemy will most likely be using some kind of jamming or spoofing to confuse the US pilots so figure there will be 1-4 leakers coming through. Otherwise why would they waste the space and weight for the gun on the plane? You have to assume that some enemy planes will get through.
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  4. #104

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: rcjets_63


    ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

    Peter Collins: ''Rafale is perhaps the best pure dogfighter currently in service.''
    I'm with gunradd on this one. When it comes to doing the ''flip flop crap'', who cares. Dogfighting went out with WWII. Check out the stats; 80% of the fighter pilots who got shot down didn't even see the guy who nailed them let alone get into a dogfight with them.

    The two most important things for fighters are speed and stealth. Speed is typically #1, but if you are invisible (at least to radar) you don't have to be overly fast.

    As for the Rafale and other French technology, just check out the electrical system of a Renault and you'll see that we have nothing to worry about. Frankly, I'm surprised the Rafale even flies.

    Regards,

    Jim


    Errr, so was the Ault report not about "dogfighting" following the unacceptable loss:kill ratios experienced in the early part of the air war over SE Asia? I seem to recall a USAF War Studies Instructor at the RAF College telling me, in 1983, how & why dogfighting had had to be re-learned; guns put back into fighters; agile fighters invented; and the Aggressor programme introduced. All because some techno junkies in the 1950s decided that beyond visual range fighters with long range missiles would rule the skies. We Brits had a similar problem with the Sandys Report in about 1956 - the death of the manned aircraft he thought.The Lightning survived Sandys, just - but was never properly developed; we next got stop-gap F4s with no integral gun; then Tornado F3's - with their Charge of the Light Brigade tactic of running head on into the oncoming massed Soviets over the North Sea and Iceland/Faroe gap - loose off 4 Skyflash - and hopefully bug out behind them for a stern pass with Sidewinders. Its only now that we are getting Typhoon that we have a proper agile fighter again. Besides, if the other guy has not got the all singing and dancing BVR machine, he is going to get into a turning fight with the high tech kit. It will be Mig 17 v F4C all over again.

  5. #105

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    cactusflyer : you're damn right there !!
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  6. #106

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: G4guy


    ORIGINAL: Strykaas

    You can see in that video the holes made by FLAK.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/F-117.MPG
    And you are happy or excited by that fact?

    I have watched your posts over the years and come to this conclusion: You are a person who is either profoundly embarrassed by your country or you are extremely jealous of the United States or anyone else.
    Not at all. Simply showing that stealth does not mean invincible as some suggest on this very thread.
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  7. #107

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: gunradd

    I think strykaas must be in the taliban
    No I'm not a muslim, guaranteeed lol...
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  8. #108

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: uncljoe

    Strykass ..Welcome to the United States of America NOW GO HOME . BTW what are you doing in the US.
    Semper Fi
    Joe
    I'm not authorized to tell you that here.
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  9. #109

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    I understand what you are saying sweetpea, but its a number our fine press want to make a big issue about due to the F-22's percieved costs.

    20 year old 15? The last F-15C was built in 1985, so its more like 25 years! Scary enough. Inital F-15 maintenance per flight hour were closer to 20 with the F-15A. They steadily improved over the years, however since the issues with the longeron stress fractures, that number has increased by quite a bit, and more than likely will continue to increase over the next few years due to the amount of increased service required. And as maintenance crews get better with the F-22 and perfect what they are doing and find the common maintenance issues with the F-22, its own numbers will go down.

  10. #110
    rhklenke's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: sweetpea01

    [snip]

    Well when a 4ship of Raptors with say 8 weapons apiece (32 weapons) goes up against a wall of enemy fighters of lets say only 20.

    [snip]
    That's so funny - because none of the serious potential adversaries for the F-22 exist in TOTAL numbers as large as 20...

    Bob

  11. #111

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: rhklenke


    ORIGINAL: sweetpea01

    [snip]

    Well when a 4ship of Raptors with say 8 weapons apiece (32 weapons) goes up against a wall of enemy fighters of lets say only 20.

    [snip]
    That's so funny - because none of the serious potential adversaries for the F-22 exist in TOTAL numbers as large as 20...

    Bob
    That's so funny - because none of the serious potential adversaries for the F-22 exist in TOTAL numbers as large as 20...
    Don't under estimate russian made missiles. They have proven to have superior units in some fields (see Brahmos unstoppable missile). Even the french have the MBDA Magic which is superior to the sidewinder (for instance, its IR detector covers a wider angle than the Aim9p does).
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  12. #112

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    As a neutral Irishman reading this thread.....I originally came across it, 'cos I thought some company had come out with a model F22 that wasn't up to scratch.... I would just like to say that the comments, made by some apparent members of the human race i.e. UNCLJOE and a GUNRADD absolutely disgust me and would like to suggest that it be renamed just Shame On You. It is statements made by these people that can make America horrible, not only to me, but to many on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. Please do not attempt to come back with the patriotic bit,a true patriot does not howl at the world to go home....... and also don't patronize me about patriotism,I'm Irish.....been there. I also find it hard to stomach, that these comments have not been commented on by members contributing to this post.

  13. #113
    NickC5FE's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    I cant believe this thread is three pages long..........Are you kidding me? The next thread this guy posted was about some crappy cargo hauler, that is a c-17 with turboprops..

    Now, i for one cant stand the c-17 but whytake something with turbofans, and change it to crappy turboporps. Range, Altitude, and speed are all diminished..........Why does it get such an amazing applaud from strykass, oh thats right, it is FRENCH....

    PPPPPPPPPPPPPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEE EEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEE!

    Why cant you just come forward and admit you are a BIASED airplane fanatic....
    I Fly FREDex
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  14. #114
    NickC5FE's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    "Don't under estimate russian made missiles. They have proven to have superior units in some fields (see Brahmos unstoppable missile). Even the french have the MBDA Magic which is superior to the sidewinder (for instance, its IR detector covers a wider angle than the Aim9p does"

    [:@] FUNNY!
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  15. #115
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: NickC5FE


    Now, i for one cant stand the c-17...

    [snip]
    Now that wouldn't have anything to do with the "C5FE" part would it Nick!

    Bob

  16. #116
    NickC5FE's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    Your Darned right!!!!
    I Fly FREDex
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  17. #117

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    Um, except for the US has never really used the AIM-9P, it was designed for export sale, and while the USAF does have quite a few in inventory it has been using the AIM-9X since... oh 2002 with full usage by Nov. of 2003, and is already deploying Block II missiles which have 360 degree control from off-boresight from the JHMCS allowing it to be effective in full 360 degree fights. Most of the earlier AIM-9's used before the deployment of the AIM-9X were AIM-9M's, which still remains one of the most effective A2A missiles in anyone's inventory, be it Warsaw Pact or NATO


    Yes, I'm well aware the AIM-9X uses the MK 36 motor and the WDU-17/B from earlier AIM-9's, but the AIM-9 is about half the diameter of the earlier AIM-9's, has nearly 2.5x the range (now over 20 miles vs. the 10 on previous AIM-9s).


    People, when attempting to badmouth something, at least use the latest version of what you are trying to badmouth, not something from a generation ago... the AIM-9X is not the same as the AIM-9L/M/P

  18. #118
    NickC5FE's Avatar
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    BTW- Before this thread gets yanked....

    When i used to work on F-16's, we used to fly dissimilar air combat against the OST F-22's and most of our pilots were absolutley amazed at its capabilities, with most of them not even to get off the ramp before being locked and taken out by the raptors, from FAR away....Not going to put any numbers on the iternet because it is ILLEGAL...
    I Fly FREDex
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  19. #119
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: aslan

    As a neutral Irishman reading this thread.....I originally came across it, 'cos I thought some company had come out with a model F22 that wasn't up to scratch.... I would just like to say that the comments, made by some apparent members of the human race i.e. UNCLJOE and a GUNRADD absolutely disgust me and would like to suggest that it be renamed just Shame On You. It is statements made by these people that can make America horrible, not only to me, but to many on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. Please do not attempt to come back with the patriotic bit,a true patriot does not howl at the world to go home....... and also don't patronize me about patriotism,I'm Irish.....been there. I also find it hard to stomach, that these comments have not been commented on by members contributing to this post.
    I think that you are getting a wrong impression (also from a neutral point of view) .the lack of comments on those posts
    are more about the poster who sistematically taunts the participants in this forum since long time, than patriotism... by the way, U.Joe is one of the finest persons you can meet around.

    Enrique


  20. #120

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    Um, when flying against the F-16, the F-22's were only carrying AIM-120 missiles most of the time, AIM-120 missiles, in the currently used block cannot engage targets on the ground due to clutter, so how they took them out, unless using the Radar Link functionality to upload data to Mud Hen's which then took out the F-16s...

    That being said, the AIM-120D has a LOT more functionality than the current AIM-120C currently being fielded by the USAF. I wouldn't want to be anyone facing an F-22 Lot 6 with an AIM-120D that has a range over 130 miles.

  21. #121

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !


    ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

    Um, except for the US has never really used the AIM-9P, it was designed for export sale, and while the USAF does have quite a few in inventory it has been using the AIM-9X since... oh 2002 with full usage by Nov. of 2003, and is already deploying Block II missiles which have 360 degree control from off-boresight from the JHMCS allowing it to be effective in full 360 degree fights. Most of the earlier AIM-9's used before the deployment of the AIM-9X were AIM-9M's, which still remains one of the most effective A2A missiles in anyone's inventory, be it Warsaw Pact or NATO


    Yes, I'm well aware the AIM-9X uses the MK 36 motor and the WDU-17/B from earlier AIM-9's, but the AIM-9 is about half the diameter of the earlier AIM-9's, has nearly 2.5x the range (now over 20 miles vs. the 10 on previous AIM-9s).


    People, when attempting to badmouth something, at least use the latest version of what you are trying to badmouth, not something from a generation ago... the AIM-9X is not the same as the AIM-9L/M/P
    Indeed, our Magics are currently being replaced by Mica IR
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  22. #122

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    "Strykass ..Welcome to the United States of America NOW GO HOME . BTW what are you doing in the US.
    Semper Fi
    Joe"

    Yes I understand exactly what you are saying Erbroens, a mighty fine gentleman....... From what seemed to be an educational discussion on.........oh! forget it......... One thing though that scares me is, why would someone have to worry wether he is a Muslim or not and have to make a point that he is not with a LOL at the end in a discussion about jets....oh!sorry and Missiles and Canadians and French and Russians and Afghanistan and Iraq and......

  23. #123

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    ORIGINAL: rhklenke


    ORIGINAL: sweetpea01

    [snip]

    Well when a 4ship of Raptors with say 8 weapons apiece (32 weapons) goes up against a wall of enemy fighters of lets say only 20.

    [snip]
    That's so funny - because none of the serious potential adversaries for the F-22 exist in TOTAL numbers as large as 20...

    Bob

    Exactly my point. If I was country X I'd send out my cheaper Iron Birds as fodder for the F-22's knowing they would be limited in weapons numbers. My better planes would come in the second wave. You would expect some of both types to make it through. Then it comes down to dogfighting which is a more even match as stealth is lost in that fight and it comes down to pilots knowing the capes of their plane and the advesary.

    Also don't think they won't know the Raptor is coming..........Iraq knew the 117's were coming (hence all the flak etc in the air).


    Yes this sounds terrible and all for those pilots that are fodder.......but countries do that all the time with soldiers on the ground. Its only a matter of time before it happens in the air as well.
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  24. #124
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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    To hell with all of these 'magic' jets...give me my Tomcat back!

    Even better, for the price of an F-22 we could blacken the sky with A-4F's!

  25. #125

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    RE: F22 : Shame on you !

    "The best solution for the US Air Force and American taxpayers" [sm=thumbup.gif]

    http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc45/

    Northrop has virtually given up.

    Too bad such patriotism blind them so much
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