F22 : Shame on you !
12-12-2009, 03:24 AM
#152
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Evil Merlin,the insult is in the quote underneath, and I misread Yellowaircrafts post..... in the heat of the moment. Yep, Bulmers is the job alright,can't get me head arount the Pear stuff though,keep expecting the ice-cream to arrive
Apologies Yellowaircraft and thanks for pulling me up on that one. Unfortunately, I think the kids nowadays would only be able to tell us the first president of Sony or Mac or Xbox......... Happy and Peaceful Christmas to all.
Apologies Yellowaircraft and thanks for pulling me up on that one. Unfortunately, I think the kids nowadays would only be able to tell us the first president of Sony or Mac or Xbox......... Happy and Peaceful Christmas to all.
12-12-2009, 07:52 AM
#153
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Hello,
We are far away from our favorite hobby !
Insult, racism, slander, etc...
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
Could you please try to be fairplay and polished in your comments.
We should respect the opinion of everyone.
Keep cool and have great fun with your jet models.
Alain
We are far away from our favorite hobby !
Insult, racism, slander, etc...
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
Could you please try to be fairplay and polished in your comments.
We should respect the opinion of everyone.
Keep cool and have great fun with your jet models.
Alain
12-12-2009, 10:09 AM
#154
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: raptorlogo
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
Sluggo
"Well, it's nice to be liked, but it's more important to be respected." Ronald Reagan
12-12-2009, 11:38 AM
#156
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Hi
My only comment on what I think is a thread that has totally lost the plot is this.
The faith that our American cousins have in the F-22 and it's invincibility is proven correct because I fear it will soon be put to the test over the skies of Iran. The Iranian armed forces are well trained, well motivated and very well equipped and this will be no Desert Storm rerun. The political leadership in that country are spoiling for a fight and will not back away from their Nuclear ambitions leaving the world with two choices.
M
My only comment on what I think is a thread that has totally lost the plot is this.
The faith that our American cousins have in the F-22 and it's invincibility is proven correct because I fear it will soon be put to the test over the skies of Iran. The Iranian armed forces are well trained, well motivated and very well equipped and this will be no Desert Storm rerun. The political leadership in that country are spoiling for a fight and will not back away from their Nuclear ambitions leaving the world with two choices.
M
12-12-2009, 11:58 AM
#158
Thread Starter
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Yes, and when our French ''allies'' refused to allow overflight of France (and to be fair, Spain also; and look how Spain has caved to Al Queda) by UK-based USAF jets on the way to Libya in 1986...well, that didn't exactly endear the French to the US military and most Americans, either, my friend.
Sluggo
ORIGINAL: raptorlogo
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
By reading this crazy discussion I understood why so many people in the world hate the Americans.
Sluggo
12-12-2009, 12:04 PM
#160
Thread Starter
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
But to get back to the initial discussion, I think we should all ask ourselves one question about the F22. I have profund respect for the lost ones, families, relatives on that very special day, but I 've got to ask, do YOU think that those expensive F22s will be able to intercept airliners ? That's actually what matters for your own security boys.
12-12-2009, 12:28 PM
#161
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Somebody's on vacation again............................
Looking for some jet modeling discussion on the forum.
The jet guys are peeing all over each other again
Looking for some jet modeling discussion on the forum.
The jet guys are peeing all over each other again
12-12-2009, 12:44 PM
#163
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
It is unfair to associate the hijackings with aircraft capability. Any US fighter can shoot down any non armed aircraft.. Its not the issue. Is the F-22 faster, yes, to an extent, but every aircraft has speed limitations.. The problem in 2001 was figuring out what was happening fast enough, and with enough confidence that the decision maker was willing to sacrifice innocent lives to save more innocent lives... That decision does not rest with the pilot unless he/she witnesses a hostile act within the rules of engagement we operate. thats universal. I never thought I would fly Armed over my own country. We talked alot about that among ourselves...
Let me ask you this: Are you willing to shoot down an aircraft that contains your wife and kids potentially, mother, father...friends or family, in order to save the "sears tower" or white house or even an unknown target because the team on the ground says to do it.. Talk about sacrifice. But thats the fundamental question you ask when we talk about shooting down airliners. Not if some plane can do it better than another. The F22 is an amazingly capable plane, in my opinion, the best in the world in the role it was designed to do (air superiority). Once air superiority is achieved, many aircraft can do the job. In our own country, air superiority isnt an issue, so quick responding aircraft stationed all over the place is the key "alert fighters" which is what the USA does.. Thus the F-16's that were dispatched to intercept the airliner in 2001. I guarantee you they were going balls to the wall speed wise.
BAM said something above about those that serve the least seem to be vocal... that is the politics of this country.. I dont like it either, but often those that ultimately make funding and business decisions at the highest levels in our government, really know very little about the weapon systems themselves. I know that first hand... I witnessed it when briefing the capabilities of various fighters to senior officials.. THe thing that I really didn't like was that you had to figure out why the folks didn't like the F-22 before you could address any questions.. I think it was a terrible mistake to cancel production. The plane was really hitting its stride on the maintenance side of things, as well as added capability.. But I do understand the financial part.. The thing that bothers me most, is that we traded a bird in hand (current and ready) for a future capability F35 that isn't in production just yet and may experience more delays, but certainly will have its growing pains in the early stages of the program. You have to compare say F-22 #41 off the line against the F-35 USAF #41 to understand the real differences, not ship number 1.. for example.. The time span between the two really bothers me.
All that said, often times the patriotic thing to do is to accept the decision you are given, and do your part, whatever it is. I see alot of engineers for example, that take great pride in their system as part of a larger system. THat little system could save a brother's life someday... what would happen if your thing you worked on malfunctioned at the wrong time? and your cousin on the ground got overrun..for example...
Every american has the right to belly ache if they want to... A freedom earned by those before us... but as Bam says, don't ***** to me if you wont do anything about it...just accept it and go forward... I didn't like the decision to end the F22 program.. I tried do to my part to keep it going... Now its a done deal... Time to move on and support the alternative.., while keeping the ones we have ready to go.. The plane has tremendous potential and capability. It just takes money and commitment from the government to make it happen...
So from a modeling point of view... pick your favorite plane and model it!!
Let me ask you this: Are you willing to shoot down an aircraft that contains your wife and kids potentially, mother, father...friends or family, in order to save the "sears tower" or white house or even an unknown target because the team on the ground says to do it.. Talk about sacrifice. But thats the fundamental question you ask when we talk about shooting down airliners. Not if some plane can do it better than another. The F22 is an amazingly capable plane, in my opinion, the best in the world in the role it was designed to do (air superiority). Once air superiority is achieved, many aircraft can do the job. In our own country, air superiority isnt an issue, so quick responding aircraft stationed all over the place is the key "alert fighters" which is what the USA does.. Thus the F-16's that were dispatched to intercept the airliner in 2001. I guarantee you they were going balls to the wall speed wise.
BAM said something above about those that serve the least seem to be vocal... that is the politics of this country.. I dont like it either, but often those that ultimately make funding and business decisions at the highest levels in our government, really know very little about the weapon systems themselves. I know that first hand... I witnessed it when briefing the capabilities of various fighters to senior officials.. THe thing that I really didn't like was that you had to figure out why the folks didn't like the F-22 before you could address any questions.. I think it was a terrible mistake to cancel production. The plane was really hitting its stride on the maintenance side of things, as well as added capability.. But I do understand the financial part.. The thing that bothers me most, is that we traded a bird in hand (current and ready) for a future capability F35 that isn't in production just yet and may experience more delays, but certainly will have its growing pains in the early stages of the program. You have to compare say F-22 #41 off the line against the F-35 USAF #41 to understand the real differences, not ship number 1.. for example.. The time span between the two really bothers me.
All that said, often times the patriotic thing to do is to accept the decision you are given, and do your part, whatever it is. I see alot of engineers for example, that take great pride in their system as part of a larger system. THat little system could save a brother's life someday... what would happen if your thing you worked on malfunctioned at the wrong time? and your cousin on the ground got overrun..for example...
Every american has the right to belly ache if they want to... A freedom earned by those before us... but as Bam says, don't ***** to me if you wont do anything about it...just accept it and go forward... I didn't like the decision to end the F22 program.. I tried do to my part to keep it going... Now its a done deal... Time to move on and support the alternative.., while keeping the ones we have ready to go.. The plane has tremendous potential and capability. It just takes money and commitment from the government to make it happen...
So from a modeling point of view... pick your favorite plane and model it!!
12-12-2009, 01:16 PM
#164
Thread Starter
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Nice post Goose [sm=thumbup.gif]
One question though :
From the moment the airliner diverted from its route to the tower crash, there has been a whopping 1h15 (or something similar). Wasn't it enough to reach this airliner ? I also read no fighter took off (while all aircraft above US terrirtory were made to land very quickly). Are they any resources proving those F16s have taken off ? Why were all US fighters involved in military exercises so far away ? Thanks for your input.
One question though :
I guarantee you they were going balls to the wall speed wise.
12-12-2009, 01:53 PM
#168
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
This thread is getting real off topic.
However to be fair to the USAF. What happened on 9/11 was unthinkable, and it would take ANY western military command completely by surprise and considerable time to react. A hostile heading for your shores from outside of the country was one thing, it is a clear and definite possible hostile and would give the USAF plenty of time to fuel and arm a few birds but two hijacked planes operating within their own own airspace is quite another. The initial reasons those jets were off course could have been very simple, it wasnt until it was too late that they realised their true intent. If the USAF had reacted early it would have been a PR disaster. Or do you suggest we adopted the old soviet air control system where you are given a height a course and a speed, Deviate and you are shot down as what happened to the JAL Jumbo several decades ago?
The UK may have reacted quicker but we are used to our airspace being probed by the Russian airforce and have a chain of rapid reaction birds all down the coast, but even then 9/11 was unthinkable. and a bird hijacked in say France could easily have pentrated UK airspace and hit the Palace of Westminster before the RAF could react.
This thread is getting real off topic and if you can't win your arguement based purely on the merits of the aircraft in question then I suggest you retire gracefully from the field of battle. Using arguements like 9/11 does your cause only harm.
M
However to be fair to the USAF. What happened on 9/11 was unthinkable, and it would take ANY western military command completely by surprise and considerable time to react. A hostile heading for your shores from outside of the country was one thing, it is a clear and definite possible hostile and would give the USAF plenty of time to fuel and arm a few birds but two hijacked planes operating within their own own airspace is quite another. The initial reasons those jets were off course could have been very simple, it wasnt until it was too late that they realised their true intent. If the USAF had reacted early it would have been a PR disaster. Or do you suggest we adopted the old soviet air control system where you are given a height a course and a speed, Deviate and you are shot down as what happened to the JAL Jumbo several decades ago?
The UK may have reacted quicker but we are used to our airspace being probed by the Russian airforce and have a chain of rapid reaction birds all down the coast, but even then 9/11 was unthinkable. and a bird hijacked in say France could easily have pentrated UK airspace and hit the Palace of Westminster before the RAF could react.
This thread is getting real off topic and if you can't win your arguement based purely on the merits of the aircraft in question then I suggest you retire gracefully from the field of battle. Using arguements like 9/11 does your cause only harm.
M
12-12-2009, 03:26 PM
#170
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RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: Strykaas
Moderator, please shut down this one !
Moderator, please shut down this one !
Im absolutely sure you know less than nothing about our F-22's true capabilities. Most, are willing to listen to what you claim to know about your Rafale.... so long as your comments arent always so comparative in nature. It IS a very beautiful and capable aircraft, and the rich aviation history of France is not unknown to airplane buffs.
Im convinced that you simply love pushing buttons, since your posts are so often non model connected.
As for you other fellas.... see you on the other side of this post!
12-12-2009, 07:51 PM
#173
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
ORIGINAL: gooseF22
It is unfair to associate the hijackings with aircraft capability. Any US fighter can shoot down any non armed aircraft.. Its not the issue. Is the F-22 faster, yes, to an extent, but every aircraft has speed limitations.. The problem in 2001 was figuring out what was happening fast enough, and with enough confidence that the decision maker was willing to sacrifice innocent lives to save more innocent lives... That decision does not rest with the pilot unless he/she witnesses a hostile act within the rules of engagement we operate. thats universal. I never thought I would fly Armed over my own country. We talked alot about that among ourselves...
Let me ask you this: Are you willing to shoot down an aircraft that contains your wife and kids potentially, mother, father...friends or family, in order to save the ''sears tower'' or white house or even an unknown target because the team on the ground says to do it.. Talk about sacrifice. But thats the fundamental question you ask when we talk about shooting down airliners. Not if some plane can do it better than another. The F22 is an amazingly capable plane, in my opinion, the best in the world in the role it was designed to do (air superiority). Once air superiority is achieved, many aircraft can do the job. In our own country, air superiority isnt an issue, so quick responding aircraft stationed all over the place is the key ''alert fighters'' which is what the USA does.. Thus the F-16's that were dispatched to intercept the airliner in 2001. I guarantee you they were going balls to the wall speed wise.
BAM said something above about those that serve the least seem to be vocal... that is the politics of this country.. I dont like it either, but often those that ultimately make funding and business decisions at the highest levels in our government, really know very little about the weapon systems themselves. I know that first hand... I witnessed it when briefing the capabilities of various fighters to senior officials.. THe thing that I really didn't like was that you had to figure out why the folks didn't like the F-22 before you could address any questions.. I think it was a terrible mistake to cancel production. The plane was really hitting its stride on the maintenance side of things, as well as added capability.. But I do understand the financial part.. The thing that bothers me most, is that we traded a bird in hand (current and ready) for a future capability F35 that isn't in production just yet and may experience more delays, but certainly will have its growing pains in the early stages of the program. You have to compare say F-22 #41 off the line against the F-35 USAF #41 to understand the real differences, not ship number 1.. for example.. The time span between the two really bothers me.
All that said, often times the patriotic thing to do is to accept the decision you are given, and do your part, whatever it is. I see alot of engineers for example, that take great pride in their system as part of a larger system. THat little system could save a brother's life someday... what would happen if your thing you worked on malfunctioned at the wrong time? and your cousin on the ground got overrun..for example...
Every american has the right to belly ache if they want to... A freedom earned by those before us... but as Bam says, don't ***** to me if you wont do anything about it...just accept it and go forward... I didn't like the decision to end the F22 program.. I tried do to my part to keep it going... Now its a done deal... Time to move on and support the alternative.., while keeping the ones we have ready to go.. The plane has tremendous potential and capability. It just takes money and commitment from the government to make it happen...
So from a modeling point of view... pick your favorite plane and model it!!
It is unfair to associate the hijackings with aircraft capability. Any US fighter can shoot down any non armed aircraft.. Its not the issue. Is the F-22 faster, yes, to an extent, but every aircraft has speed limitations.. The problem in 2001 was figuring out what was happening fast enough, and with enough confidence that the decision maker was willing to sacrifice innocent lives to save more innocent lives... That decision does not rest with the pilot unless he/she witnesses a hostile act within the rules of engagement we operate. thats universal. I never thought I would fly Armed over my own country. We talked alot about that among ourselves...
Let me ask you this: Are you willing to shoot down an aircraft that contains your wife and kids potentially, mother, father...friends or family, in order to save the ''sears tower'' or white house or even an unknown target because the team on the ground says to do it.. Talk about sacrifice. But thats the fundamental question you ask when we talk about shooting down airliners. Not if some plane can do it better than another. The F22 is an amazingly capable plane, in my opinion, the best in the world in the role it was designed to do (air superiority). Once air superiority is achieved, many aircraft can do the job. In our own country, air superiority isnt an issue, so quick responding aircraft stationed all over the place is the key ''alert fighters'' which is what the USA does.. Thus the F-16's that were dispatched to intercept the airliner in 2001. I guarantee you they were going balls to the wall speed wise.
BAM said something above about those that serve the least seem to be vocal... that is the politics of this country.. I dont like it either, but often those that ultimately make funding and business decisions at the highest levels in our government, really know very little about the weapon systems themselves. I know that first hand... I witnessed it when briefing the capabilities of various fighters to senior officials.. THe thing that I really didn't like was that you had to figure out why the folks didn't like the F-22 before you could address any questions.. I think it was a terrible mistake to cancel production. The plane was really hitting its stride on the maintenance side of things, as well as added capability.. But I do understand the financial part.. The thing that bothers me most, is that we traded a bird in hand (current and ready) for a future capability F35 that isn't in production just yet and may experience more delays, but certainly will have its growing pains in the early stages of the program. You have to compare say F-22 #41 off the line against the F-35 USAF #41 to understand the real differences, not ship number 1.. for example.. The time span between the two really bothers me.
All that said, often times the patriotic thing to do is to accept the decision you are given, and do your part, whatever it is. I see alot of engineers for example, that take great pride in their system as part of a larger system. THat little system could save a brother's life someday... what would happen if your thing you worked on malfunctioned at the wrong time? and your cousin on the ground got overrun..for example...
Every american has the right to belly ache if they want to... A freedom earned by those before us... but as Bam says, don't ***** to me if you wont do anything about it...just accept it and go forward... I didn't like the decision to end the F22 program.. I tried do to my part to keep it going... Now its a done deal... Time to move on and support the alternative.., while keeping the ones we have ready to go.. The plane has tremendous potential and capability. It just takes money and commitment from the government to make it happen...
So from a modeling point of view... pick your favorite plane and model it!!
Goose,
Very nice post to an increasingly ridiculous thread. I enjoyed reading your insight and opinion, and I LOVE your attitude about the whole thing....
12-13-2009, 01:02 AM
#174
RE: F22 : Shame on you !
Thanks Shaun..
By the way, Im building a 1/6 JL F-16...alas my heart is still in that plane, as I flew it for 13 years.. F-22 will be next though.. Raptor is kinda a funky looking sinister bird on the ground, but its absolutely beautiful and graceful in the air.
By the way, Im building a 1/6 JL F-16...alas my heart is still in that plane, as I flew it for 13 years.. F-22 will be next though.. Raptor is kinda a funky looking sinister bird on the ground, but its absolutely beautiful and graceful in the air.
