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  1. #26
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Lavi,

    What is your point? You are not going to attend any of the three mentioned events...so as it is said "You ain't got a dog in this hunt". Since you seem to have nothing but time on your hands to make comments on things that do not affect you, why don't you look up the rain days that occurred at Top Gun and Florida Jets over the past 18 years? Maybe you can actually contribute to the conversation instead of making simple smart a***ed retorts.

    Beave

    ORIGINAL: lavi rider

    I got the name wrong ...here it is, West Palm Beach Polo grounds .... Happy? But then again that doesn't change the point at all.....or does it ....you probably mean that the rain nowdays is much drier....
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  2. #27
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    One thing I did just think of that pertains to Florida Jets. This year, the EAA had a "grass burn" just prior to FJ. It made walking through the grass simple awful because of all the ashes that turned everything black in seconds. I wonder if they will be burning the grass again this year...and doing it at the new FJ site.

    I understand why they did it at the EAA site...but hopefully they will not do it at the new FJ site.

    Beave

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  3. #28

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    What are you some kind of a mind reader??? Or you are so bussy paying attention only to what you write here and not quite reading my comments all the way.....and the fact that you think that only certain individulas are qulified to give their thoughts on this post is another thing one should give his mind to....perhaps you have some kind of business relation to it all and words of crticism don't fall so easy on your ears.....or maybe you're the one who has all that" time on his hands" and just finds it amuzing getting back to people with answers like the ones we all read here..........

    I was and still am addressing certain issues regading the competition nothing else ....but this is some how missed by you when one reads your replies.

    Regarding the Russian fighters and such, please read carefully the term of unprepared runways.....and how many of the spoken planes where actually designed for that purpose.... if you know how a prepared dirt road is made then you know a grass field doesn't fall within that term...
    But anyway, what ever........

    Have a nice one....this is still a hobby.
    Comp-Arf dealer , ATJ ,Jets-munt Turbines , Weatronic Sys , Power-box systems,Detail4scale ,C&C models Italy, Airworld models , Jet-Cat turbines.

  4. #29
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Oh no...not at all. What I am simply doing in engaging you in the exact type of discourse you are engaging me with. Your attitude is that you think you are right so I must be wrong. Not so nice when it gets thrown back in your face now is it?

    You quote wet grass 18 years ago as an example of why Top Gun should not be held on grass, which is ridiculous. How would you feel if someone said "no WJMs should ever be held in Israel again because the Egyptians or Iranians might attack during the meet (as Israel has been attacked by waring neighbors in the past)? I'll bet you would sing a completely different tune then...just like some here did when the "war zone" question was brought up during the last WJM.

    You can't have it both ways...sorry.

    Never the less...Top Gun, Florida Jets and Giant Planes will go on as long as Frank deems it so...regardless of what you or I say.

    Later Tater,

    Beave


    ORIGINAL: lavi rider

    What are you some kind of a mind reader??? Or you are so bussy paying attention only to what you write here and not quite reading my comments all the way.....and the fact that you think that only certain individulas are qulified to give their thoughts on this post is another thing one should give his mind to....perhaps you have some kind of business relation to it all and words of crticism don't fall so easy on your ears.....or maybe you're the one who has all that'' time on his hands'' and just finds it amuzing getting back to people with answers like the ones we all read here..........

    I was and still am addressing certain issues regading the competition nothing else ....but this is some how missed by you when one reads your replies.

    Regarding the Russian fighters and such, please read carefully the term of unprepared runways.....and how many of the spoken planes where actually designed for that purpose.... if you know how a prepared dirt road is made then you know a grass field doesn't fall within that term...
    But anyway, what ever........

    Have a nice one....this is still a hobby.
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  5. #30

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    No one was engaging you with anything that is the fact that you seem to missunderstand ......and is evident from your replies ...again.

    My comments where general from judges point of view nothing else ....and yes question of safety where raised regarding the WJM here and no one took it in the way you write it here....but by your answer right now I understand that it takes one to know one.....Right ????
    Comp-Arf dealer , ATJ ,Jets-munt Turbines , Weatronic Sys , Power-box systems,Detail4scale ,C&C models Italy, Airworld models , Jet-Cat turbines.

  6. #31
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Lavi,

    I don't quite understand what you are trying to say...must be the language barrier.

    Cheers,

    Beave


    ORIGINAL: lavi rider

    No one was engaging you with anything that is the fact that you seem to missunderstand ......and is evident from your replies ...again.

    My comments where general from judges point of view nothing else ....and yes question of safety where raised regarding the WJM here and no one took it in the way you write it here....but by your answer right now I understand that it takes one to know one.....Right ????
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  7. #32

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Yeah, yeah you win.......
    Comp-Arf dealer , ATJ ,Jets-munt Turbines , Weatronic Sys , Power-box systems,Detail4scale ,C&C models Italy, Airworld models , Jet-Cat turbines.

  8. #33

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    This isn't supposed to be an arguementive forum........so take it private!! Just info of Frank's plans. In reality, I think Frank is trying to see who will come due to moving it to grass, and maybe help him negotiate using the Lakeland airport again.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  9. #34
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Dan,

    The story I got is that the EAA has doubled the fees that they are going to charge Frank, hence the change in sites. I honestly believe it will hurt Florida Jets, probably not impact Top Gun (maybe lose a few entries) and have no effect on Giant Planes.

    Time will tell.

    Beave



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  10. #35

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    If you saw my earlier post, I was taking an F-18 to TG 2011. I live only an hour away too. I am sure they won't get it as smooth as a golf green, and would cost a lot to make it like a golf green. So, yes, it will effect TG. Most or all jets won't come to TG. Just too hard on the retracts.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  11. #36
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Dan,

    I agree some jets won't attend...but what is the percentage of jets to props at TG anyway? Supposedly they are placing new grass on the runway...so I am sure it will be better that the typical grass.

    Maybe Frank can come online and comment.

    Beave

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  12. #37

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    LOL>>>>>>>Like I said earlier.......we don't have nice grass down here, and fresh sod is worse! Even if a sprinkler system is installed, it is very costly to have a golf green runway down here for a week or two event. I do want to say, that Franks runs first class events, but this is a business decission. If he wanted jets there, or any planes with retracts, he would stay at Lakeland airport and pay the price. Personally, I won't fly a plane with retracts off of grass, and there are a lot of other guys that feel the way I do on it. TG has been deterorating over the years, this won't help it.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  13. #38
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Dan,

    I agree...down here in Florida...the "St. Augustine grass" is pretty awful. That being said, I primarily fly off of Polo fields down here and I'll tell you it's as good as it can be. The big question is if Frank can get that type of grass planted. I also agree with your comments on TG losing attendance...and FJ too. The grass subject can not help...but only Frank really knows why this change and what his feelings are.

    I have flown my Tucano more off of grass than pavement and it's fine. I also flew 12 flights with my Comp-ARF Lightning at the Joe Nall this year and it did just fine. The grass was rough as heck and it made it through no prob.

    Beave


    ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan

    LOL>>>>>>>Like I said earlier.......we don't have nice grass down here, and fresh sod is worse! Even if a sprinkler system is installed, it is very costly to have a golf green runway down here for a week or two event. If the EAA is charging double, it is still back to ''about Frank making Money'', so this effects his bottom net line. I do want to say, that Franks runs first class events, but this is a business decission. If he wanted jets there, or any planes with retracts, he would stay at Lakeland airport and pay the price. Personally, I won't fly a plane with retracts off of grass, and there are a lot of other guys that feel the way I do on it. TG has been deterorating over the years, this won't help it.
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  14. #39

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    The Polo field has been around for what????20-30 years? So, it is and should be nice.......plus, money isn't an object to take care of it, even after the horses run. He said in his letter that he is using Bermuda grass.......not much better.......not like Blue grass or other Nothern grasses.
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  15. #40
    bevar's Avatar
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Dan,

    I fly at a private facility that is only 8 years old. It was built by a Texas billionaire out of swamp land. It really does not take very long to get it up and running. Palm Beach Polo is history. The buildings are gone and the owner is under indictment for something or another it was reported a month or so ago.

    Has anyone talked to Frank lately?

    Beave
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  16. #41

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Haven't live down in Boca for 5 years, so didn't know. I just hope he can work something else out with a pave runway. O'Well....
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  17. #42
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Had lunch with Frank today. The goal is to have grass that is as smooth as the grass that was at Palm Beach Polo. For those of you that visited the events held there, or more importantly walked out on the field, you know how awesome that sight was. Work has already started on the new field. The work will be quite extensive to bring the current field up to speed but Frank has consulted an expert (golf course maintenence superintendent) on how to do it right.

    I can honestly tell you that Frank is moving his events forward for the benefit of the hobby and not for his pocketbook. If you do the math you will see these events will not make anyone a millionaire, maybe a "thousand-aire" on a good year but that is only if the stars align, weather cooperates, etc.

    I hope that the jet jocks that are put of by the grass runway will give it a shot. I think they will be surprised, if it turns out like Frank has planned, at how pleasant it is too fly off of a nice grass runway! Think of all the scuffed wingtips, etc that we won't have to worry about.

    Also, and this is important, keep in mind that the air will be the same as the other area of the airport

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    I will be bringing a jet to TG in 2011 and have been assured by people who are working on the field that it will be putting green smooth! Dan please bring your F-18 to TG 2011. It is a great time and even if it rains you at least had some time to hang out and play with planes. Doesnt get better than that. Hopefully it turns out to be a great field. i know we all hate change but maybe it will be for the better.
    Thanks, Curtis switzer

  19. #44
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    I know I'd sure rather fly my 90-size Hellcat and P-51 off of good Bermuda. I do ease out onto the golf course and fly my electric Pulse XT...love it.

    Now this Skymaster L-39 I.m building (90% done, 90% to go, I swear), I'm not so sure. But, if the surface is golf course fairway smooth, and not too spongy, I think it would be a forgiving surface to fly off of for sure.

  20. #45
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    ...disregard, fat-fingered 'quote' instead of 'edit'

  21. #46

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Good Morning Curtis!
    Yes, we all hate change, and I have had a night to sleep on it. It upset me yesterday, when I first read about it. As I stated earlier, Frank runs a First Class Events, no question there. So, I am sure he will do his best to make the runway the best that he can with grass. I know it will help the landings........lol. Cutis, I guess techniqually, I have to be invited again. Frank said that I would, even though I missed last year, due to not completing the jet. LOL>>>actually, still hasn't flown. I have only flown at TG once with a T-28 back in 2006. It was a heavy plane at 22 pounds and on the scale wheels, it flattened them when sitting on the gear. Took 1/4 throttle to just taxi on pavement, so not sure it would have been able to get off of the ground on grass. As we all know, scale planes just end up extremely heavy.......most of the time. It did up set me at first, but my common since is kicking in and will just go over and see it, since I only live an hour away, then make a judgement, rather then making a poor judgement behind a computer screen. I can also go to FJ's to watch and see how they are performing, and may even fly my Flash there. I just haven't flown a retractable geared plane off of grass for the past ten years, due to most clubs don't have the money to make them nice. Spoiled with pavement. Good Luck Frank and his crew to getting it together!
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  22. #47
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    The grass will be great for sport jets but not so great for scale jets. Granted the grass field I fly at is pretty rough but if you scrape a wing with a missile rail on pavement it gets scratched if in the grass its gone and hopefully its a clean break. Also if you have a nose gear problem then you gear it up and scratch your plane in the grass it will catch and ball up.

  23. #48
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***


    ORIGINAL: Mustang1971

    The goal is to have grass that is as smooth as the grass that was at Palm Beach Polo. For those of you that visited the events held there, or more importantly walked out on the field, you know how awesome that sight was. Work has already started on the new field. The work will be quite extensive to bring the current field up to speed but Frank has consulted an expert (golf course maintenence superintendent) on how to do it right.

    Just as I hoped and thought it would. . . . . . Thumbs up to Frank.

  24. #49

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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    I have no doubt that the BVM scale and sport jets would have no problem with the grass runway take-off or landing. Having owned a BVM F-100, that jet could probably land on a mud field and the gear would just shake it off! I seriously doubt though if many or any of the Chinese ARF scale jets, that are now so prevalent, will be able to handle the stress of anything but a perfect landing & rollout on grass. The way the gear is mounted, in the wings especially, does not lend itself well to the added stress IMO. Any landing of more than a gentle touchdown would most likely leave the main gear departing the wings with resultant wing damage.

    That is enough I think to scare away a number of jet pilots for Fl Jets. I think any of the larger jets, like the Mibo A-10, SkyGate Hawk or AirWorld scale jets would not have a problem.

    David S

  25. #50
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    RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***

    Would fairway-smooth Bermuda really be harder on the airframe than pavement? I'm not at all asking this to be a wise-guy. My SM L-39 has trailing-link gear, and I would think that, provided the grass is not spongy soft or wet, firm turf would be user-friendly.


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