RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I've got a Topgun f-15 with an OS.91 and it will use everybit of a 600 ft. runway to take off and will use all your skills to fly but it is fun..............................

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Reading this thread made think about getting my ICDF stuff back out. I still have five Dynamax fans, eight OS 91's and pipes from the "good old days". Just can't bring myself to get rid of them. I still have a kit of the Byrons Mig 15 and a couple of other DF kits. Heck, I still have my giant scale (1/6th/120"span) scratchbult A-10 (from Josh Harel plans) that I built and flew from 1994 to 1998 and then retired because it was terribly under powered (two Dynamax/OS 91's in a 53 lb plane). However I have reduced the plans and now have plans for a 108" span and a 96" span versions that I was thinking of making electric, but I am like Steve in that I have no electric fan stuff but I have lots of ICDF stuff. HAve to think about this really hard [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Steve, I agree with others, fly the YA F-16 with the OS 91. I have had two of the YA f-16 (early A model and the later C model) and the YA F-16C flies very well with the OS 91/Dynamax combo. Build the plane and have fun with it.

Ed

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Ed where were those pics taken? Looks like Chatfield in the Denver area.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

George:

You win the grand prize (whatever that is). They were taken at Chatfield state park in 1994. There were four of us that each built an A-10. Dean Lassek (pictured on right) built two of them, I built one, Ivan Munninghoff made a kit for himself but sold it to someone else and Herb Heaton built one. Dean and I used Dynamax and OS 91's. Herb used the Josh Harel 7 1/2" fan with Graupner props. Don't recall what Herb's plane weighed. Dean built two planes in two different configurations. The one pictured is a one piece wing and fuse and it weighed 43 lbs. I built mine as a two piece fuse and three piece wing and it was about 10 lbs heavier for a number of reasons (one being the multiple pieces and associated structures to handle the different pieces, i.e. three piece wings with plug in spars, etc.). Dean then built a second version which was a little heavier but he installed a couple of RAM 750 turbines in it. I never saw it fly but those that did said it flew much better than the DF versions. I believe that my plane had the most flights on it and as with any new plane we learned a lot each time we flew it. Example: we thought that we would balance the planes at abotu 25% MAC. However, my plane flew as though it was tail heavy. Not dangerously so but whenever I input elevator, the plane just seemed to "sit down" at the rear and not rotate around the CG. Turns out the full scale was balanced at 17.5% MAC. I added some weight and the plane flew much better. Another example was that the plane required a LOT of aileron to initiate a roll and then once the roll began it required opposite aileron to stop the roll. Turns out we were over powering the aileron servos. I looked at the full scale and noticed a trim tab that was deflected up with zero aileron deflection. I cut a trim tab that was 6" long and 1" in chord, glued it at a 30 degree angle, roll problem fixed (just for reference, the ailerons were 22" long and about 5" in chord so they were huge and the wing had a lot of undercamber). And it went on and on, finding various problems.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread and I apologize for getting off track.

Ed

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

And a pic of the latest attempt to fly one of the 4 original A-10s just a month ago! This was POTM just south of SLC. (Yes, I'm into slope soaring as well.)

Now back to your regular programing.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I was wondering if you sell the A-10 plans or know where to get them? Thanks

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I don't understand why the cost of batteries is always included when discussing EDFs but the cost of a pipe, fuel tanks, kerosene, oil, etc is never included whendiscussing the cost of a turbine. It's just not a fair comparison unless you add up the total cost of flying a turbine when comparing it to the total cost of flying an EDF.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Find a Me 262 and go for a twin......

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

If you want to talk about the cost of operating a turbine vs operating an EDF of equivqlent thrust. here's something for you to think about. It cost $1030 dollars for a set of 14 cell 7700 mAh Thunder Power high end 65C batteries. These batteries power a fan that has the same amount of thrust as a P-120. I can get 200 flights on these batteris so it cost me $5.15 per flight. A P-120 will need at least a 1/2 gallon of fuel per flight. A 5 gallon can of kerosene and oil cost about $60 and this will give you 10 flights. To spend $1030 on kerosene and oil you will need to buy 17 five gallon cans and you will get 170 flights at a cost of $6.05 per flight. So, it is actually cheaper to fly an EDF and you would also get 30 more flights for the same $1030 spent.I did not include the extra cost of a pipe, fuel tanks, and the 25 hour maintenance cost of the turbine (no 25 maintnenace cost for EDFs).

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

K sonn do forget to add in the cost of two or more High end chargers for these batteries. they will have to be charged at home or if charging at the field you will need a small generator as you will only get one maybe two charges out of a large car battery. in the long run the E set up will be cheaper. and some of the larger electric DF's have a great sound thats close to modern High Bypass turbines.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

If I had to buy my kerosene, a thousand dollars worth at a time, I would not fly turbines.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Your right about needing a good charger but with today's high end chargers you would only need one good charger like the PowerLab 8. It can charge the 14 cells in 35 minutes so you really only need one set of batteries. The cost of the charger, power supply, and generator will be around the cost of the 25 hour maintenance, pipe, and fuel tanks, but it is also a one time cost that can be spread out over multiple planes. Unfortunately, the pipe, fuel tanks, and maintenance costs are not one time costs unless you move the turbine, pipe, and tanks from plane to plane.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say EDF is better than turbine. But when someone says the cost of EDF is too much when compared to a turbine, it's usually because they haven't sat down and did a cost analysis between the two propulsion systems. If Jeremy doesn't want to fly EDFs, I'm fine with that. Each to his own. Just don't use cost as an excuse becuase that excuse can be refutted quantitatively.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

That's probably a true statement for most people. But, over the lifecycle of the batteries, you will have spent more on kerosene and oil if you are flying a P-120 powered jet. Heck, just for the cost of the pipe and fuel tanks, you've spent half the cost of a set ofbatteries. Also, the battery cost I quoted were the most expensive brand on the market. Others have had success with less expensive brands.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

deleted, double post.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I believe "ScaleBrad" can do plans for you. He is doing one electric.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

i am not knocking either. 10 years from now we all maybe only be able to buy electric stuff and and anything running on a liquid fuel will be on a very limited "antique" License to fly. i sure hope it doesnt get that way but sure is moving that way. heck read this new stuff in batteries comig out:

http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-relea...ion-batteries/

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I don't know what kind of fuel tanks and pipes you're referring to. Fuel tanks go from about $.10 to $100.00 and pipes a few hundred at most. The price of kero is very high now but with oil 5 gal still only costs me about $25.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I'm with you on that. Diversity is what keeps things moving forward in this hobby. Maybe the future of jet propulsion is a blending of the two technologies like the fellow in Europe who mated a Wren 44 to a Schubeler DS-94 HST fan (no electric motor) and more than doubled the thrust of what the Wren 44 could produce alone. Who knows?

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

I have on order a BVM 80 inch F-86 kit that I will be building as an EDF. While these prices may not be reflective of what you are referring to, they are what I was referring to. By not purchasing the turbine installation and fuel tanks, I've practically purchased another set of batteries.

http://www.bvmjets.com/JetKits/F86_80/pricesheet.jpg

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Ahh OK. But you could save a lot more by just not buying a BVM kit to begin with :D

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

True, but I don't think there is another F-86 out there that can compete well. Do you know of any alternatives?

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

That is the best analogy that anyone could think of. I am a reformed smoker and every once in awhile I get that feeling that I want a nice long drag on a cigarette. A few deep breaths and it's gone. LGM take some really deep calming breaths and you will get over it.

Patrick

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

Klean Strip the cheapest I could find is $43 bucks

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...=SPM2379281702

Aero Shell $12. 50

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...s/shell500.php

Add tax your at $60 bucks

I also get frustrated when turbine guys don't add in the cost of fuel for there rigs, but with EDF it's always brought up. As Kirk mentioned there is also packs that are 1/3 the cost and can work well.
I have a mix of good packs and cheap.... some of my cheap hobby king packs have done as well as my expensive Thunder Powers

I still hold Thunder Power and Hyperion as the bench mark, very good packs, and very hard to beat Thunder Powers 2 year warranty and 50% off if you crash your packs. Try to get half off your kerosene the next time you crash :D

I have nothing against turbines at all and had one in fact, but just fell in love with electric power and do get tired of the bashing EDF get here in RCU. Most of the bashing is done by guys that really don't know much about E power or have done it.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

You're right, if you want to fly a BVM F-86 on a budget, it may be cheaper to do it EDF. If you want to fly a turbine on a budget, it would be better to not go BVM and may be cheaper than your EDF setup.

RE: Time to lay down until the feeling passes again.......
 

That's going to be one hell of a plane Kirk!! Can't wait to see what you do with it.... you picked a perfect plane. As you know the F-86 is by a long shot one of the best subjects for EDF, the ducting is a straight shot, it's a clean airframe that carries its energy well and has a nice big wing to carry the weight well

It's going to be amazing! Can't wait