Scott Smith

My Feedback: (4)

I've already written a program that can import result from PACSS and transform the results to xml. Apply a stylesheet and you have your UI…or import into a db and run reports.
I only got about a 30% response for contest results so nothing has been done with it.

mjfrederick

I was just re-reading through this thread to get caught up on the discussion, and when I re-read this comment it got me thinking. Given the fact that judge certification and training has pretty much been standardized by the NSRCA, we need to get away from that way of thinking. If a judge passes the test and is certified to judge at the Nationals, then their opinion should be no less valid than any other judge's opinion, regardless of where the contest occurred. Due to the training, two certified judges on opposite sides of the country should theoretically give the same pilot similar scores. That being said, there's no reason we couldn't develop a national ranking system based on raw score as a percentage of total possible as long as the scores used are from certified judges. Judge pool exposure is a concept that should be going by the wayside with the advent of judge certification. Otherwise, what's the point in certifying judges?

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

MJ you are absolutely correct but I think the point there was at all the local contests and with contestant judging, there is no way to do it.  Most contestants are not "certified" would be my guess.

mjfrederick

There's probably more than you think. Most districts hold 1 - 2 judging seminars/certification classes per year. The NSRCA maintains a list of certified judges. All it would require is a very small amount of effort on the part of the CD to make sure judges are associated with their scores.

Columbus Ron

What is the goal of an advancement system? Is it to force someone to move up sooner than they otherwise would or is it to prevent someone from moving up too soon. If the criteria is too easy then some will quit because they are forced to move up before they are comfortable. Likewise if you make it too difficult then some will quit because they are getting bored with the same old manuevers.

Let me make another observation, a 4 pt roll that scores an 8.0 in advanced won't score an 8.0 in masters because we hold masters pilots to a higher standard. I know this isn't in our judging rules but it is a fact. What if a pilot scores 5-6 on one or two manuevers and scores 8 or higher on all other manuevers. Should that pilot be forced to move up? Remember the skill that the pilot hasn't mastered in his current class will be made even more difficult in the next class.

I think the old advancement system based on points was a joke but any new system won't work either. I think we let peer pressure take care of this.

RC11

My Feedback: (7)

Yep... Generally,the system in place will police itself as is. IMHO....However I think a trial move up might be a good idea. Then you could move back and get your but kicked eventually anyway. We should be able to fly where we are comfortable.
RC

burtona

My Feedback: (50)

You are very right in allowing everyone to fly the class they are comfortable with IMO. However, we've got too many who don't want any changes to the event who don't support eliminating the forced advancement process on the books. I've submitted rules proposals to eliminate all points and advancement sections several times but it gets shot down by the NSRCA leadership. I won't do it again.
We keep things the same and meanwhile we watch participation continue to decline and wonder why. Only 12 contestants at one of the best contest in the South East at Jacksonville, Fl a couple of weeks ago. About the same at the D2 Championships in Winston Salem last week end. We have to change whatever is causing the decline or there will only be a handful of old men flying Pattern in the whole country soon. Somehow it has to be simpler, less costly, and more interesting to get and keep new blood in the game.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

I do not believe that participation is related to moving up or down. Pattern is cyclical, and always has been. For a few years once districts grows and prospers while other suffer some and then it changes back around. Yes, turn out at Winston was down, but other contests have been very well attended in the area. It is later in the year and that has a lot to do with it. In D4 last month we had 30+ pilots at the D4 champs. Right now that district is growing with a lot of turnout in the lower classes. I would like to see the rules changed, but I certainly don't think they have a great influence on who flies and who doesn't. Most people in lower classes don't even know what the rules are about it and it never bothers them because they tend to move up when they are ready. The lower number of pattern pilots across the country has more to do with other avenues for people to pursue. Years ago, pattern was the thing, now it competes with IMAC, heli's and 3D. Younger kids tend to find it boring, although there are some who enjoy it. Unfortunately watching a pattern contest is like watching grass grow unless you know what is going on, and even then there are not many pilots who sit and watch every single pilot fly. If you want to attract the younger generation, then you have to make pattern more exciting and challenging for them. They enjoy the unknowns in IMAC and the freestyle events. Neither of which really fall with what people do in pattern. A lot of the reason you will see pattern keep heading towards a handful of old men flying is that people don't like change in the schedules. If you want to reduce the costs of the lower classes, follow the lead of some other countries and make the entry class open to only people flying smaller lighter planes, maybe 9lbs. I understand the idea of letting people fly anything in sportsman, but if someone shows up with a giant scale plane to fly sportsman, odds are they arent going to sell that and buy a pattern plane, so while they may make that individual club have more lower class pilots, they really don't help the district, not to mention the safety factor. Limit the sportsman planes to smaller sport planes or 1.10 size pattern planes and then if they stick with it and want a 2m plane, then by all means have at it in Intermediate. Pattern is NEVER going to be cheap to compete at the top. People could fly 1.10 size stuff now in most classes competitively, but people don't want to do it. But they are the same poeple who want things cheaper. It is competition, some people are always going to try to find an edge if they can buy it. I would like to see Sportsman limited to maybe 72" planes with a 9.5lb weight limit (not that it would be enforced at a local events), but at least gets people flying smaller stuff, then in Intermediate allow an 8oz weight allowance for buying old planes, in Advanced make it 4oz and in masters make them play by the current rules.

The most popular pylon events in the country are the sport ones where they have the most rules. Motor has to cost less than 100.00 and such. If you implemented these rules, for a year or two it might affect some people flying sportsman who currently have 2m planes, but within a year or so they are going to move up to Intermediate and then you would have sportsman guys competing against pilots who also have restrictions. If a guy can afford a 2500.00 full blown 2m ship in Sportsman, he can certainly afford a Osiris for 700 bucks ready to fly. Then he can spend his money in Intermediate and sell his Osiris to another Sportsman pilot. I think most people buying expensive 2m stuff in Sportsman are doing it because they think it gives them an advantage. From what i've seen in my travels, the guys in sportsman who usually travel well start out with some .60 plane and then get a good deal on a 2m ship. Let them fly their .60 size stuff for a year and then when they move up, then they can get the good deal on a 2m ship. I think a lot of people have been driven away by buying a used 2m ship that arent really ready for that plane, it gets torn up and then they don't come back, when had they flown their .60 size stick for the rest of the year in sportsman or 2 years, they are MUCH more ready to move up and buy a used or new 2m ship for Intermediate.

Arch

mjfrederick

So by this statement are you admitting to being an unfair and partial judge? If I were running a contest and a contestant expressed a view like this to me, they would never sit in the judge's chair. A 4-point roll is a 4-point roll is a 4-point roll. It may be used in multiple classes, yet has the same definition and downgrades in each class. Also, Masters never flies just a 4-point roll, there are always other pieces to the maneuver. You shouldn't hold a class to a particular standard as a judge, you should hold all classes to the standards set by the rules. This is yet another mentality we need to get away from. When I present a maneuver to a judge I don't want a christmas present, I want an honest judgment of the maneuver with proper downgrades.

By the way, I fly Advanced, and when I score a 9 or 9.5 on a 4-point you can bet that I earned that score.

Columbus Ron

So when you judge a half cuban flown by a sportman pilot and a masters pilot you downgrade just as severly. If you did they would get a lot of zeros and typically nothing over a 3 or 4.

Give me a break this is a serious discussion.

I'm just being frank. The scores I give out are similar to the ones the judge next to me is giving out.

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

Frankly, neither one of you belong in the judges chair (you or the guy next to you doing his own improvisation). The rules are the rules, and you are bound to follow them. Otherwise, you should disqualify yourself from participation.

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

Ed
I totally agree.
Dick

mjfrederick

Yes, I downgrade them equally because the rule book does not give me separate guidelines for each individual class, just individual maneuvers. You're right, this is a serious discussion, and that's why I was unable to simply gloss over your point that you use different downgrade criteria from class to class. Do I give low scores to Sportsman class pilots? You bet I do, but they're not all as bad as you would like to believe. When they do a good maneuver, they get a good score. Beginning with the wings level entry both the Masters pilot and Sportsman pilot are starting with a 10. There usually aren't enough elements in the Sportsman class maneuvers to end up with extremely low scores on every maneuver. As a pilot, I'd rather be judged by someone who gives fair scores based on the rules rather than one who has an arbitrary lowest-possible score. Given your lack of respect for the rules, I just gotta ask, are you looking at the other judge's scores during or after the flight?

Columbus Ron

Lets see. General run of the mill sportsman pilot entering a half reverse cuban eight. Wings aren't level (-1 or more). Plane not parallel to runway (-1 or more). Plane pulls to steep (-1 or more). Rolls way to early or way too late (-1 or more). Geometry normally all wrong (-1 or more). Out of box (-1 or more). Plane stops roll to early or too late (-1 or more). Hmmm most sportsman pilots I see have downgrades in almost all of these categories on every round. Some are certainly better than others. The total at best is 10-7 = 3. I rarely give 3s to sportsman and neither do you or anyone else for that matter.

Funny you ask about looking at judges scores after flights. I saw judges do just that during flights on site 4 at 2009 NATS. That I disagree with.

As for comparing your scores to other judges after flights on occasion. I think that helps you learn to be a better judge.

I'm not perfect and don't claim to be.

Not sure how I got wrapped up with you on this.

I'm done.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

1pt per 15 degrees. Fractional points are permitted.

I know there is a tendency to go easy on the Sportsmen. Personally I am interested in seeing my raw scores and don't want any gifts - it would be discouraging to be getting 8's and 9's on my Cubans in Sportsman, only to have the same maneuver knocked down to a 4 or 5 the following season in Intermediate. It's interesting though, I don't know if I'd be considered a 'run of the mill' sportsman since I'm almost ready to move up - there are a lot of very new guys competing against me. However, with respect to moving up based on scores, I think in 3 summers I've only officially won one contest (ie competing against another breathing soul) an my points don't even hint at bumping up. This is where making the jump based on raw flight scores would be more appropriate I think.

Columbus Ron

Joe in a perfect world your right but the world isn't perfect. I've seen you fly. You and most of the sportsman guys I saw at the D4s were ready to move up. One season in sportsman is normally enough. Its a big jump at first but by the end of the season you'll wonder what all the fuss was all about.

mjfrederick

In no way did I mean that talking about the flight afterwards was wrong. I do that on almost every flight. I especially do that if I gave a zero. Most of the time the other judge didn't catch what I caught. And you're right, deductions can add up quick, but if the Sportsman class is given special "kid glove" treatment, they will become discouraged when they move up to intermediate and get the harsher scores (as Joe has pointed out). Do I use my best judgment on applying downgrades? Yup. Does that judgment change from class to class? Nope.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

Don't worry about moving up, Joe. Sportsman if for guys to give Pattern a try and learn the basics and you've been there, done that.
As others have said, it's a big jump at first but by the end of the season you'll be doing fine. I thought the Sportsman pilots at the D4 Champs could all move up.

Scott

RC11

My Feedback: (7)

I flew Sportsman for 2 years and felt I needed to. My son did also. Making the jump to Intermediate this year was a leap of faith for me and I am glad I did it. The crop of Sportsman at the D4 finals were flying very well and I believe if they don't move up they will be doing themselves a disservice. We should have a huge Int class next year! We need to challenge ourselves yet keep it fun.
RC

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Matt,

I find it hard to believe that everyone judges sportsman as harshly as the rule book states. Yes, the lower classes are held to a slightly different standard as they should be. We are trying to encourage people to stick with it, not shove it in their face when they do it poorly. There are many maneuvers in sportsman that I've watched people score very lowly, when you could easily argue it was a zero, but what good does a zero do, when a 3 does the same thing and has no effect on the contest. We have to be smart about it. I also have seen over the years a LOT of 8's and 9's on slow and point rolls in advanced that really were closer to 6's and 7's, but it is human nature. People do tend to hold people in the upper classes to a higher standard and no matter what you do, that wont change. No different than any other sport. Your average guy goes out and shoots a 100 playing golf, he might be happy about it. Tiger or Phil do the same thing, they are crucified by how bad they played.

Arch

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Joe,

I've watched you fly. You had some really nice stuff. I think you can easily talk to the pilot afterwards and explain to him what he is doing wrong without making the guy feel horrible for a flight. Frankly as long as somone is consistent it doesnt matter. Maybe a guy goes with 1 pt for 30 degrees instead of 15. Once again the goal is not to run people off. If a guys shows up at his first sportsman contest and sees all kinds of 2,3, 4, but made every maneuver recognizable, he is going to get discouraged and probably think this isn't for him. You can easily figure out who won the contest without running the guys who are in the first or second contest out the door.

It even happens in FAI. I have yet to see a rolling circle that was about a 4 or 5. No matter what you will see a slight roll rate change throughout and their are other maneuvers exactly the same. The inside outside diamond 8 a few years ago in masters, even done well, you probably deserved a 3 on it as there were 8 line segments, 8 corners, and 2 rolls . I would score an 8 or 9 on it and just laugh because I knew there was virtually no way to fly that maneuver that well.

Arch

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

I don't have a problem with a small "sliding scale" on judging for the lower classes. I really think giving 3-4's can discourage a new guy. For me to give a 3 or 4 on a score the new guy really has to screw it up.

I do however use that "Sliding Scale" across the entire class. Does it really matter that the scale is 5-10 rather than 1-10? Not really. The end result is the same. Yes I know I should use the rule book as gospel but I don't and never will at a local contest, at the Nats or such it's rule book only.

Talking to pilots after a flight is IMHO the single most important thing a judge can do for a flier. Yes even Master and FAI pilots.

After judging me for a few flights Arch and Jeff both told me the same thing and I honestly thought I was perfectly level and vertical in every pull or push but I wasn't. All the corrections I was having to make ultimately proved both of them correct.

At home I flew a flight with Jeff on the end of the box watching my airplane. He could tell easily I was flying with the inside wing down 10-15 degrees ALL the time and never getting vertical on the ends. Jeff told me he could see every correction I was making from that vantage point and that is because I had the WRONG sight picture of my airplane from the pilot station. I was having to work very hard to maintain my lines which I did but the workload was much higher.

I then went back to basics and started flying from box end to box end straight and level and did a simple pull to a stall turn. I kept moving the outside wing down until the airplane consistently started to go out on every pull then backed off a bit. Suddenly I was not having to make as many corrections. The site picture was completely different. It looked like I was inboard wing up but the pulls told me I was level. Funny how that is.

If they'd not told me that, I would have carried on making the same mistakes.

Tim