Notices
RC Pattern Flying Discuss all topics pertaining to RC Pattern Flying in this forum.

Telemetry in F3A

Old 01-14-2011, 05:52 AM
  #1  
apereira
Thread Starter
 
apereira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,738
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default Telemetry in F3A


Now that radio manufacturers are pointing to telemetry systems like Spektrum and Hitec just to name pioneers for aircraft, it will be the moment for those using this systems for F3A(for FAI sanctioned events only) to check if those radios are legal in competition, I know and understand this sound stupid but if you go to the FAI sporting code section 5.1.2 it actually forbids the feedback(telemetry) from the aircraft.

I think is better to bring this out now, as I would love to see the battery voltage from the Rx in my transmitter, but I'm flying Futaba now, so it will be a while for that if it happens, but it will be normal soon to have that kind of data.

Alejandro Pereira
Venezuelan F3A Team
Old 01-14-2011, 10:49 PM
  #2  
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

The Futaba 14MZ already has "illegal timing functions" and has had them for years.

Why should be we jump on one illegal function when Futaba's flagship TX already has others?

If I had my way, F3A would be flown on a basic radio with no mixing, dual rates, conditions, ninja snaps or whatever else you can think of. It would be very simple for Futaba to release an F3A model type to select in your 14MZ/12ZA/12FG/8FG menu with all the fancy stuff disabled for competition work.

Don't get me wrong, I like using it's functions for everyday flying but at the end of the day, F3A should be about the best pilot, not the fanciest TX functions helping you out...
Old 01-15-2011, 04:31 PM
  #3  
mike31
My Feedback: (67)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: York, ME
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

I agree. 2 thumbs and eye/hand coordination. That's flying!
Old 01-15-2011, 06:44 PM
  #4  
burtona
My Feedback: (50)
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bolivia, NC
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

The Futaba 14MZ already has ''illegal timing functions'' and has had them for years.

Why should be we jump on one illegal function when Futaba's flagship TX already has others?

If I had my way, F3A would be flown on a basic radio with no mixing, dual rates, conditions, ninja snaps or whatever else you can think of. It would be very simple for Futaba to release an F3A model type to select in your 14MZ/12ZA/12FG/8FG menu with all the fancy stuff disabled for competition work.

Don't get me wrong, I like using it's functions for everyday flying but at the end of the day, F3A should be about the best pilot, not the fanciest TX functions helping you out...
Don't worry, when you get older you will go back to "Basic" flying because you won't remember what switch to use and when!
Old 01-16-2011, 04:23 AM
  #5  
dhal22
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 5,711
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

The Futaba 14MZ already has ''illegal timing functions'' and has had them for years.

Why should be we jump on one illegal function when Futaba's flagship TX already has others?

If I had my way, F3A would be flown on a basic radio with no mixing, dual rates, conditions, ninja snaps or whatever else you can think of. It would be very simple for Futaba to release an F3A model type to select in your 14MZ/12ZA/12FG/8FG menu with all the fancy stuff disabled for competition work.

Don't get me wrong, I like using it's functions for everyday flying but at the end of the day, F3A should be about the best pilot, not the fanciest TX functions helping you out...

well said. just 4 channels (or 5) and trim controls and go fly.
Old 01-16-2011, 07:43 PM
  #6  
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

ORIGINAL: burtona
Don't worry, when you get older you will go back to ''Basic'' flying because you won't remember what switch to use and when!
LOL I'm starting to do that already, that's why I assign sound filed to nearly switch that does something.



Old 01-16-2011, 08:36 PM
  #7  
Rendegade
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

I think this is a great idea, how many would actually agree to it though?

How would it be policed?
Old 01-17-2011, 01:40 AM
  #8  
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: Rendegade
I think this is a great idea, how many would actually agree to it though?
How would it be policed?
It's a pie in the sky idea that will never happen, but it's a nice ideal. However, the've pulled traction control off F1 cars, and their going back to 1.5 litre, 4 cylinder, 7000rpm hybrids for 2013.

As for inforcement, show the judges the F3A "Splash Screen" when you walk out to the spot.

There's a handful of model types already to choose from, an F3A one would be a few hours of programming at Futaba which can be pushed out onto their next software update, even if they had to get rid of the 8 servo wing, v-tail, twin motor electric glider from the list of never 'gonna use model types...

Aileron servos back on a y-lead, scary thought [X(]
Old 01-17-2011, 03:10 AM
  #9  
guille2006
Senior Member
 
guille2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MaranelloModena, ITALY
Posts: 646
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

None mantioned a very important fact: to eliminate all the computer tricks on radios (let's say we keep D/R an exps only) would supose a real challenge for designers. Today we solve many design problems through several radio mixes. To design a good pattern plane is one thing, to design THE pattern plane that does'nt needs any extra input for couplings or so is very very difficult. In the other hand, shall be said that a good plane with instruments onboard could give enough info for designing such "perfect" airplane.
In any case, I agree that F3A shold be a nude and crude coordination man-plane whitout any computer trick in the middle... as Mike31 said: "I agree. 2 thumbs and eye/hand coordination. That's flying! "
Regards
Guille
Old 01-17-2011, 07:56 AM
  #10  
MTK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Whippany, NJ
Posts: 5,386
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: guille2006

To design a good pattern plane is one thing, to design THE pattern plane that does'nt needs any extra input for couplings or so is very very difficult.

In any case, I agree that F3A shold be a nude and crude coordination man-plane whitout any computer trick in the middle... as Mike31 said: ''I agree. 2 thumbs and eye/hand coordination. That's flying! ''
Regards
Guille
Many (but not all) of today's F3A designs can be "TRIMMED" to fly without mixing almost in every attitude that's critical. The lone exception is probably the power-off downline. In other words, mix free flying for today's thoroughbreds is more a matter of flight trim than design

As far as telemetry of any kind goes, I don't want to see it in competition. However, it has value for certain key outputs such as battery voltage, RF link signal strength at various locations of the flight stage, etc., just not in competition.

I don't want to see and will not support any telemetry aids for Judging. Mechanical aids that are hand held (pencils for example), are already in use and are fine. But electronic feedback of attitude/direction, altitude, distance, speed, or angular delta to the judge's stand, etc., must be forbidden in competition.

Practice sessions however, are wide open in my opinion
Old 01-17-2011, 02:01 PM
  #11  
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: MTK
I don't want to see and will not support any telemetry aids for Judging. Mechanical aids that are hand held (pencils for example), are already in use and are fine. But electronic feedback of attitude/direction, altitude, distance, speed, or angular delta to the judge's stand, etc., must be forbidden in competition.
Imagine if the sport ever got to the point where it was using "hawkeye"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye

It's great for cricket and tennis. Other cool thing I saw once was in an F1 coverage, where the first corner action was frozen, coverted to digital models frame by frame, then 3D rotated and played to see which bits of who's cars was hitting what and where....
Old 01-17-2011, 03:51 PM
  #12  
Taurus Flyer
 
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Almelo, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Gents,

Maybe a little “off topic” but when I read the first post of the thread starter I do have one simple question: “Why don’t I read anything about data log systems in this forum.”.
Fuel consumption, airspeed, propeller choice, RPM, engine temperature, electrical power consumption of servo’s, etc.

They are allowed, data log systems, also for pattern and nearly 20 years old.

Because these systems are not used I think telemetry isn’t interesting either (real time is too late!), or do you want to replace the receiver battery during a pattern flight after your caller does give you a sign?

Cees
Old 01-18-2011, 07:01 AM
  #13  
apereira
Thread Starter
 
apereira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,738
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Just to refresh the topic a bit for the people who just joined this thread, the idea was,

Telemetry of any kind is forbidden in FAI F3A contests, pilots using this systems and plan to compete in FAI F3A (not just F3A in local clubs) be aware of the sporting code regulations.

Regards to all
Old 01-18-2011, 01:10 PM
  #14  
Reko
Member
 
Reko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Linkoping, SWEDEN
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Well said Alejandro. I think your post is very relevant! There is no doubt that the next generation of 2.4ghz systems will have telemetry built in to them and integrated with the transmitter. I think it is not perfectly clear though when a tx/rx system is illegal. The sporting code says:

“Radio equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from the model aircraft to the ground).”

Strictly interpreted this would mean that no data what so ever can be transmitted from the model and that the equipment not even can be of the type that could transmit/receive data. Simply turning the telemetry of would not solve the problem as it still is equipment capable of telemetry, and secondly turning of the telemetry does not necessarily mean that no data is transmitted from the model. Data that is used by the system to work may still be sent in the background. Remember how the XPS system worked before the FHSS firmware update (Tx and Rx continuously communicating about what channels to use).

I don’t think that this is really the interpretation FAI intended. It would mean that a lot of illegal equipment is out there on competitions already. So how should we interpret this rule? Wee need to ask FAI to clarify this part for future sportingcode releases. Current text is just outdated and needs to be reformulated. The pilot should not be allowed to use telemetry to his/her benefit, but rules should not ban modern RC equipment.

David Lundstrom
Old 01-19-2011, 07:38 AM
  #15  
apereira
Thread Starter
 
apereira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,738
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Hello David,

Exactly my point, we are heading towards the built in telemetry, and of course, if Futaba or JR comes out with a new pro class radio with it, we will get it just because is the nature of the competitive F3A pilot; And that is a very old FAI rule, it will, and must be revised, but unless everybody affected is aware and discuss this with their respective FAI representatives it might be too late for the affected competitor.

Best regards

Alejandro
Old 01-25-2011, 09:27 AM
  #16  
ofremmi
Senior Member
 
ofremmi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Horten, NORWAY
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Hi there
The fact is that 'normal' telemetry not involving any performance enhancements are allowed. Please look up the 'ABR volume' of the sporting-code downloadable from http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4. In chapter B.11.2 you will find this text :

A Spread Spectrum technology receiver that transmits information back to the pilot-operated transmitter, is not considered to be a “device for the transmission of information from the model aircraft to the competitor”, provided that the only information that is transmitted is for the safe operation of the model aircraft.

So, as long as your new system is not expanded creatively, it is allowd in F3A

Best regards
Ola
Old 01-25-2011, 05:59 PM
  #17  
apereira
Thread Starter
 
apereira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,738
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

That's the answer Ola, Thanks.

I wonder when will the sporting code will be amended.

Regards

Alejandro P.
Old 01-25-2011, 06:14 PM
  #18  
Silent-AV8R
 
Silent-AV8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 5,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A


ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

The Futaba 14MZ already has ''illegal timing functions'' and has had them for years.
What timing functions are illegal??
Old 01-25-2011, 09:07 PM
  #19  
Aresti-RCU
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

A timed offset mix for example. You can program the momentary switch to do snap rolls. Then a timed offset mix triggered by the same switch to stop the snap roll exactly X.XX seconds after you hit the switch. Some tinkering with time and offset % and you just pull the trigger to perform perfect 1 1/2 snap rolls, just release the switch after the plane stops. You could do this for other maneuvers, but the snap roll is so fast that it will not allow to get speed or wind into consideration....
Old 01-25-2011, 11:01 PM
  #20  
Silent-AV8R
 
Silent-AV8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 5,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Got it. The reference to "timers" made me think of the two actual timers. What you are talking about are the Condition delays. I can see how their use is illegal, but their existence is not.
Old 01-26-2011, 12:17 AM
  #21  
Aresti-RCU
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Actually the Prog.Mixes, Mode "Offset", the parameters "Offset ON", "Offset OFF", "Speed IN", and "Speed OUT", "Delay START", and "Delay STOP" can manage changes in the surface mixed (up to four) at certain times after the mix is activated or deactivated. Pretty cool. Doesn't work too well with slow maneuvers (such as slow rolls) because variation in speed of the plane or weather (wind) conditions. But for snap rolls, it is the best inventions since flight conditions (illegal though!)

Speed IN and OUT basically controls the velocity of the surface to reach the selected Offset point. Max (slower) is 27.

Delay START and STOP controls the time between you hit the switch and the surface reacts to move to the selected offset point.

For example, if you select Offset on 20%, Speed in 27, and Delay start 3s, the radio will wait 3 seconds after you hit the switch selected to activate the mix, and then slowly move the surface to 20% more than the current position.

If you are still flying glow (YS), there is a pretty neat trick I use to start the engine with a regular glow plug ignitor. I programmed a 20% offset to the throttle, with 3s Delay OUT, linked to Switch F (momentary switch) So, get everything ready to start, hit the switch, put the ignitor, and apply the electric starter. 3 seconds later the carb will open to low idle and the engine should start with no backfire!
Old 01-26-2011, 12:23 AM
  #22  
guille2006
Senior Member
 
guille2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MaranelloModena, ITALY
Posts: 646
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

I wonder if the "servo speed" is allowed or can be considered as the timer on the snap roll command...

Anyway I vote for NO MIX-NO EXP-NO COMPUTER-JUST D/R radios on F3A... is the only manner good pilots fly, isn't?

Meanwhile, I'm preparing my good old Futaba Attack 4 for my new Wingray.

Cheers!!!
Old 01-26-2011, 12:30 AM
  #23  
Aresti-RCU
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

No mix, exp, or computer is an illusion considering the current schedules P11 and F11. There is no way to consistently and smoothly fly a plane through the wild range of maneuvers required.
Old 01-26-2011, 01:20 AM
  #24  
guille2006
Senior Member
 
guille2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MaranelloModena, ITALY
Posts: 646
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

Aresti; Yes, I may agree but we have to be conscious that most of planes are being designed by persons with great great experience on RC pattern planes; the effort of "real aeronautical design" was never done (mean: serious calculations + wind tunnel + CFD +...). I don't know how far/deep Aeronautical engineers are/were involved on designing pattern planes; anyway I'm not meaning that pattern planes are c.r.a.p.; saying so is insulting very respectable men BUT I'm sure that we pattern flyiers have to join somehow the Aeronautic designer's community (I belong to it too, so I can see the crack in the middle).
Hope nobody gets offended...
Regards
Old 01-26-2011, 02:29 AM
  #25  
Taurus Flyer
 
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Almelo, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Telemetry in F3A

quille 2006.

I do not fly a modern pattern plane, but. even it does not has telemetry, there are more electronics on board than any other model (I think?!).
When I see the modern rules, this is all permitted and most important parts you cannot buy, and that’s interesting, because. who tells me someone doesn’t use similar system or part of it, and who can recognize it?


Picture deleted,

Cees

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.