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  1. #51

    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

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  2. #52

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    How can the horse be dead when the question hasn't been answered?
    mjfrederick AMA 275874 NSRCA 4134
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  3. #53
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Matt,

    Would you only support the team if Jason wasnt on it and Brett was, or would you support the team as a group (regardless of pilots) because you support USA Pattern?

    thanks
    Chris Odom ;Custom Airframes of America ; Team Airtronics; Team Cool Power; Team YS Parts and Services

  4. #54

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    ORIGINAL: cdodom

    Matt,

    Would you only support the team if Jason wasnt on it and Brett was, or would you support the team as a group (regardless of pilots) because you support USA Pattern?

    thanks
    I donΒ΄t think that is important. The USA F3A Team for WC 2011 in Muncine will be:

    1- Andrew, Chip and Janson.
    2- Andrew, Chip and Brett.
    3- Nor 1 or 2

    Nothing more or less. Just a simple question.
    Ricardo Mendez Turell

  5. #55

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that unless Jason is found guilty of a crime, he is the team member until such time as HE says otherwise. ANYTHING LESS goes against the basic tenets of this country's legal system, that or a person being innocent until proven guilty. Being charged with something is not the same as being convicted, and is no reason to go abandoning him, regardless of what has been reported in the press.
    Doug Cronkhite

  6. #56

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
    I don't think it's a stretch to say that unless Jason is found guilty of a crime, he is the team member until such time as HE says otherwise. ANYTHING LESS goes against the basic tenets of this country's legal system, that or a person being innocent until proven guilty. Being charged with something is not the same as being convicted, and is no reason to go abandoning him, regardless of what has been reported in the press.
    A devil's advocate extension of your argument is that the organising body is well within it's rights to allow anyone convicted of any crime to compete providing they can make the event, and at the end of the day it IS well within it's rights to do that.

    Guilty or inncent according to law has no bearing on this argument except that it MAY be used by an organising body as a yardstick to determine if a person is deemed suitable to represent their country. Being guilty, in the eyes of the law, of anything doesn't automatically exclude you and being innocent of everything doesn't give you immunity to being rejected on the ground of bringing the team into disrepute.

    I agree 100% innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but that isn't the issue.

  7. #57

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner


    ORIGINAL: mjfrederick

    How can the horse be dead when the question hasn't been answered?
    Perhaps there isn't an answer to give you yet. In any case, there are probably no answers on this forum, and everyone here likely doesn't know any more about it than you. If you have a need to know at once, why don't you call the team manager, Selection committee head, or AMA competition department. If a decision has been made you would be more likely to get it from those sources rather than this forum.

  8. #58

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Among other things, there may be legal ramifications for the team managers if they act before the court system does. Hopefully they have access to some council on the matter.

  9. #59

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner


    ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
    This is an excerpt from the team selection ''Blue Book'' on the AMA website:
    VII. World Championship Teams
    Becoming a team member carries with it the obligation to work in harmony with the other team members, and in particular, to be responsive and submit to the guidance and direction of the team manager. A team member’s conduct should never cause embarrassment or discredit to the Academy or the United States.All team members shall be present at all official functions at a World Championship. This includes the opening and closing ceremonies and the banquet.
    I still don't see where being convicted of anything in a court of law fits into this discussion. If a selected team member got drunk and slagged the FIA and half the European pattern community on a forum, they can't be charged with anything because no crime was commited but I'd bet their position on the team would be put into question.

    I agree it's a slippery slope when you start thinking about dropping the best bloke for the job off the squad because of something that happend in his personal life. USA should field the strongest team they can but now it's a decision based on moral grounds, not performance.

  10. #60

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner


    ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

    I still don't see where being convicted of anything in a court of law fits into this discussion. If a selected team member got drunk and slagged the FIA and half the European pattern community on a forum, they can't be charged with anything because no crime was commited but I'd bet their position on the team would be put into question.
    I think it's worse to base such a decision off of allegations (not even conviction). Now of course, we have no info if such a decision has even been made, so this is nothing more than conjecture, rumor, etc. It's MY opinion, that Jason should be the team member until such time as he informs the AMA and NSRCA that he cannot compete, at which time Brett would be made official as the team member. Jason earned his spot on the team and deserves to keep it unless his situation changes.
    Doug Cronkhite

  11. #61

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Of course, there is also such thing as conduct unbecoming of a member of a team that represents our country. So, whether or not the person in question feels he deserves a spot on the team and can fulfill the requirements or not may not matter. Representing your country in an event such as this is or should be a privilege and and not a right. That said, he's innocent until proven guilty.

  12. #62

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Doug,

    One has to wonder if you’d feel the same way about this situation if your daughter was a victim of this type of crime…[&:] I make an assumption that you wouldn’t have the same view.

    IMHO, the safest route for the AMA/NSRCA to follow would be to kick him off the team. But really, he should resign from the team. That would make it easier for all and negate the need for this thread.

    I note that Futaba have severed all ties. That says it all IMHO.

    Regards,
    Jason.

  13. #63
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Joe Marri
    Enjoying all things aviation.

  14. #64
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    .
    Is this recently updated information confirming that AMAis leaving him on the team, or is this old information?
    .
    I'm sure that the AMAis paralyzed by their lawyers from doing what's right. I really don't see why AMA didn't kick him off immediately since he isn't an AMAemployee or is going to receive compensation for "representing" the USA in the F3A competition.If Futaba and other sponsors were able to drop him like a bad habit, then the AMA should have too.
    .
    I think the time has long passed for the R/C community to wait for this guy to do the right thing and go away. It is obvious that he is still going to contests and just waiting for time to fade our memories. As long as everyone still tolerates his presence at contests, he'll keep coming back until his actions are just forgotten and his fanboys can keep beating the drum of "oh, it was entrapment" and "he's innocent until proven guilty". If "innocent until proven guilty" was truly the standard, then his sponsors - who have a financial interest - would still have him on the payroll.
    .
    Basically it is going to come down to everyone in the R/C community making a personal decision as to whether you're going to publicly tolerate this guy's presence. Would you feel comfortable if one of the other 14 guys busted in Florida were showing up to contests? Would you feel comfortable bringing your wives, girlfriends, or teenage daughters to contests if one of the other 14 guys were showing up there?
    .
    Then why do you tolerate this "800 pound gorilla"?
    .
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  15. #65

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Well said klhoard. I dont voice opinions out here often and I do not know this guy personally but there is enough information in the arrest report to be uncomfortable with him representing the US in a world competition.
    power corrupts...
    absolute power corrupts absolutely

  16. #66
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    I know that the community is divided. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them ( God Bless the USA ). Time will tell how this will all be decided.

    I hope those involved understand the concerns and opinions of others and respect each of them for what they have posted.

    i appreciate those who have publicly voiced there opinion and those who have in private conversations.


    I believe that whatever happens will be best for Team USA. Best for those involved. And... It will reflect well on all those who have and personal interest in who is on the Team and also those directly involved.


    Go Team USA! Represent!

    Chuck Hochhalter
    Mark Hunt Designs

  17. #67
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Chuck and All Pattern Flyers,

    One of the most shocking things I've witnessed since this guy's arrest is that there is even a division of opinion!! 
    .
    I have always believed that my moral compass was pretty well aligned with everyone I know in the Pattern community.  That is one of the reasons that I've spent many years of my life persuing this hobby and being part of this group.  When I read the arrest report, my moral compass immediately swung in one direction and I made the assumption that everyone else's did at the same time as mine.  I guess I was wrong?
    .
    Even when a Hollywood celebrity gets busted, they head off to rehab and issue a big apology (Charlie Sheen excluded, of course).  Have we heard anything publicly from this guy?  No, he's just continuing to go along like nothing happened. . . and we're supposed to just play along silently, while everyone else in the broader R/C community points to the F3A team and wonders why he's still there.  As pattern flyers, all of us are identified with that F3A team, even at our home field.  They are chosen to represent all of us. . . and guess how we're being perceived by everyone outside our community?   Whether you like it or not, you are identified by the company you keep.
    .
    I think it is well past time for the leadership (NSRCA and AMA) to officially and publicly kick this guy off the team.  It is obvious that they have been unable to make the correct decision with eveyone privately letting them know their opinions, perhaps it is time for guys to start making their opinions known publicly.
    .
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  18. #68
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Keith. And others....

    I don't see in the scoring criteria where morals are graded. Please don't misinterprupt my position. I have 17 and 18 yr old girls. He is on the team and it is up to others. We as a geoup have voiced our opinion and it HAS been heard.

    Let it be as it is. If you are not happy with the outcome. Do not support the team. Dop not support the ama. Do as u please BUT..... our voices have been heard. The ama and the nsrca are watching and listening.


    God bless america and god bless team USA.

    Chuck
    Mark Hunt Designs

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    I agree
    smooth pass

  20. #70

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    For those wondering why he hasn't come here to post an apology or something, as I was told he is currently forbidden to use computers at least until after the conclusion of the trial.
    Doug Cronkhite

  21. #71
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    ORIGINAL: RC_Pattern_Flyer
    . .<snip>. .
    Let it be as it is. If you are not happy with the outcome. Do not support the team. Dop not support the ama. Do as u please BUT..... our voices have been heard. The ama and the nsrca are watching and listening.
    . . .<snip>. .
    .
    And THATis exactly what the problem is. The organization and the sport are supposed to sit around doing nothing while many guys vote with their feet. People were wondering why District 3 had such a poor showing at the end of last year? Who wants to risk several hundred dollars and a weekend away from their family to spend it with a sex offender? I don't. I know that I am one of the very few guys who actually speak out publicly, but that means that there are many others who will just quietly get rid of their pattern stuff, drop their NSRCAmembership and move on to something else. How many participants do we have to lose to protect one "rock star"?
    .
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  22. #72

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Come on Keith.. don't you think that's blowing it out of proportion a bit? I highly doubt people are quitting flying pattern because of Jason or the possibility of being lumped in because you happen to fly the same type of airplane. That's like not flying a certain airline because you don't want to be 'lumped in' with the 9/11 terrorists since they chose the same airline.

    More likely the decline of contest attendance is simply the costs to do so these days. Out here in CA, to go to ANY contest other than one in my home town will cost me $200-300 in gas, another $200 in hotels, plus my food. I suspect more people are just choosing to not spend the money.
    Doug Cronkhite

  23. #73

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    The gracious thing for the alleged offender to do would be to step aside until the whole mess is sorted out one way or another.

    What if he attends the World's and happens to end up on the podium and is subsequently convicted? This is not at all an unlikely scenario! Or perhaps the judges will be subconsciously biased against this competitor and thus cost Team USA a higher placing. Also quite possible.

    Also, there are other ways and other venues by which to make a statement other than RCU. I am surprised that there has not been a statement from an attorney, at the very least.

    But alas, there is a severe shortage of graciousness and common sense these days.

    I am not forgetting for a second that the guy involved is a human being and as such is not immune to giving in to urges from the darker side of human behavior. We all have thoughts and urges that we would never dare act upon. Some otherwise decent people make the mistake of following through. There is a whole bunch of this story missing and we don't know if it was a one-time incident or if there was a history behind it.

    If it turns out to have been a one-time incident I think it will have gone a long way toward rehabilitating the offender. I have been in law enforcement for 28 years and this does happen.

    But it is a bit of a stretch IMHO to say that guys are leaving pattern because of this. Perhaps the economic Depression has something to do with it?
    Bob

  24. #74

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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    Good post, Bob!

  25. #75
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    RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

    .
    Like I've said before, you'll never hear about the guys that move on because they don't want any conflict. They are not shy like me.
    .
    Personally, it would totally ruin my weekend to see this POS roll up in his white van on Friday afternoon for the practice session after I've shelled out several hundred bucks to get there too. You don't have to worry about that possibility unless your club flies him out to California for a contest.
    .
    But hey, that could just be me . .
    .

    ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite

    Come on Keith.. don't you think that's blowing it out of proportion a bit? I highly doubt people are quitting flying pattern because of Jason or the possibility of being lumped in because you happen to fly the same type of airplane. That's like not flying a certain airline because you don't want to be 'lumped in' with the 9/11 terrorists since they chose the same airline.

    More likely the decline of contest attendance is simply the costs to do so these days. Out here in CA, to go to ANY contest other than one in my home town will cost me $200-300 in gas, another $200 in hotels, plus my food. I suspect more people are just choosing to not spend the money.
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868


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